The worst train today?

[physics34]

I find it fascinating how many criticise 153s and yet 155s seem to escape scot free. Perhaps because there are only a few of the latter left with one operator?

The sole reason ive picked 153s ahead of 155s is the single coach factor

 

[Energy]

Given that l heartily dislike 350/2s (all other 350s are great) that comment is deeply concerning.

The 350/2s are getting replaced by 730s, which have the exact same horrible layout and seat as the 720s...
The /2s aren't bad, fine for Tring and Northampton services. Shame they get put on the wrong services all the time.

 

[Purple Train]

Seats so narrow and with such tight pitch that only a 12 year old would fit comfortably with all seats taken. Similar in comfort to a 3+2 seated schoolkid coach of the kind that is banned from rail replacement.

Steeply contoured seat backs so sitting a bit offset is grossly uncomfortable.

Very poor window alignment.

The actual "box on wheels" is fine, but the seating layout is the worst I have ever experienced, including Merseytravel Pacers (though they weren't much better, at least a Pacer is 2.80m wide and has thin sidewalls - the interior of a 720 is about 10cm narrower).

Aim for the bit by the cab where it's 2+2 with spacers, the only OK bit.

Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely make use of that.

To get back on topic, I don't particularly like the Renatus 321s either - I found the seats uncomfortable.

 

[Mzzzs]

Cross country class 220 and 221 both are in need a major overhaul inside. The interior has been in need for a refresh for around 5 years now I avoid them but i really like the Advanti voyagers.

 

[jamiearmley]

Ive done 153's more than a few times over the heart of Wales and found them perfectly acceptable. If looked after properly they seem perfectly comfortable and adequate for the job.

My pet hate is 195's.

Uncomfortable, poorly built, inadequate aircon, overly warm, toilets constantly out of service, poor ride quality (exacerbated by the hard seats, although the seats i have no issue with, they just don't work in a unit with poor suspension), constantly breaking down for various reasons causing cancellations and delays, nothing to hold on to when your stood up in the doorway vestibules on a busy train, bits often seem to fall off them ( I've seen ceiling panels fall down and land on other people), and tellingly the crews are pretty disparaging of them as well.

Im overly happy when a 158 / 150 turns up in lieu......

 

[Mat17]

The actual "box on wheels" is fine, but the seating layout is the worst I have ever experienced, including Merseytravel Pacers (though they weren't much better, at least a Pacer is 2.80m wide and has thin sidewalls - the interior of a 720 is about 10cm narrower).

Ah the Merseyrail 142.

Of all the trains I have ever travelled on, those were the worst of any... Ever.

I've done many a short trip on them and sadly at least two 1 hour 1/2 trips on them and my back was in agony by the time I'd done on the longer ones. Many other trains/buses I have felt 'uncomfortable' on, but none ever left me aching or with an intense lower back pain that lasted a day or two after. I don't have any back issues, so it was nothing pre-standing.

They were abysmal. So much so the last time I arrived at a station and one turned up, I turned around, walked out and came back an hour later for the next service. I've never felt like that about any train. I hate 153s, always have, don't enjoy travelling on them, but I've never had to abandon my travel plans because I couldn't face the agony of the seating.

Glad those 142s have gone, just a shame they haven't all been scrapped.

 

[Wolfie]

The 350/2s are getting replaced by 730s, which have the exact same horrible layout and seat as the 720s...
The /2s aren't bad, fine for Tring and Northampton services. Shame they get put on the wrong services all the time.

Re your first para, l know and l sometimes use them hence my concern. It would be quite an "achievement" to replace the 350/2s with something worse.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Ive done 153's more than a few times over the heart of Wales and found them perfectly acceptable. If looked after properly they seem perfectly comfortable and adequate for the job.

My pet hate is 195's.

Uncomfortable, poorly built, inadequate aircon, overly warm, toilets constantly out of service, poor ride quality (exacerbated by the hard seats, although the seats i have no issue with, they just don't work in a unit with poor suspension), constantly breaking down for various reasons causing cancellations and delays, nothing to hold on to when your stood up in the doorway vestibules on a busy train, bits often seem to fall off them ( I've seen ceiling panels fall down and land on other people), and tellingly the crews are pretty disparaging of them as well.

Im overly happy when a 158 / 150 turns up in lieu......

I don't get the 195 hate. I think they're fairly comfortable (admittedly less so than say a 170) , and the interiors feel decently high quality and look quite smart. They've also got a decent turn of speed which I look forward to when I get to ride one. I'd say they're a massive step up from the 150s personally. I don't live in Northern territory so I can't comment on frequent cancellations, but they've always turned up on the services I've used them for, and I don't remember ever being delayed on one of them. I've done two hour journeys on them and I didn't find the ride especially bad or uncomfortable, but maybe four years of riding on GWR's 800s have just made me numb to poor seats.

Also I see a lot of 720 hate here. I can't help but raise an eyebrow at this. I've never been on one yet but as I understand it aren't they more or less the same as a 345 just with a different seating layout? I find the 345s perfectly fine for the Elizabeth Line so does different seats really make such a drastic difference? At the very least I struggle to imagine them being worse than the stock they're replacing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2022 ==

150s are the natural candidate for "next on the chopping block" but do have a few things in their favour. There are several routes where platform extensions have assumed 20m vehicles, so switching to 23m replacements could reduce capacity with 2x23m being the maximum rather than 3x20m. They also are more suited to frequent stopping services with high turnover than any would-be replacements other than new-build.
I'm quite fond of 156s too, though they do slightly fall between two stools with being a 75mph unit with a low-density interior and narrow end-doors. They're great for rural services, though less so with the recent refurbishments that many have been subjected to.
The main reason the 172s have a rather less sumptuous interior than the 170s is that they were procured for different work. 170s are geared for limited-stop regional express services, though they do find themselves on stoppers a fair bit. 172s were procured for the Snow Hill lines, so have a more metro/S-bahn type interior to suit. They're also lighter than the 170s so a bit quicker off the mark.

Is there any reason at all for not fitting fold down tables to stock? Other than I imagine saving a bit of money? I can understand not fitting the big four seat tables to suburban stock like that, but is there any reason not to on seat backs? If I remember rightly some 700s are or used to be like that, but they're getting round to fitting them. All the 700s I've been on recently have had them which I've appreciated.

My point still stands about the 172s though. There's plenty of metro style trains I enjoy, like the 700s. The 172s just aren't one of them. I can't imagine enjoying a through journey from Worcester to Birmingham or Stratford on one.

 

[greaterangrier]

Also I see a lot of 720 hate here. I can't help but raise an eyebrow at this. I've never been on one yet but as I understand it aren't they more or less the same as a 345 just with a different seating layout? I find the 345s perfectly fine for the Elizabeth Line so does different seats really make such a drastic difference? At the very least I struggle to imagine them being worse than the stock they're replacing.

The narrowness of the aisles is hard to get across through text. You will struggle to get through the aisles standing normally (these are also being used on the Stansted Express!) and the useless grabhandles protruding onto the aisle always manage to hit you a couple of times. As the seat layout is so dense, the aisles have essentially become roadworks with temporary traffic lights - one person through the aisle at once. Good luck getting to the toilet - for which the PRM toilet door bounces open on every bump, while the spacesaver toilet is impossible to open with the lack of a handle or anything to grab onto. Terrible trains, creaking themselves apart.

 

[coradiafan2000]

The narrowness of the aisles is hard to get across through text. You will struggle to get through the aisles standing normally (these are also being used on the Stansted Express!) and the useless grabhandles protruding onto the aisle always manage to hit you a couple of times. As the seat layout is so dense, the aisles have essentially become roadworks with temporary traffic lights - one person through the aisle at once. Good luck getting to the toilet - for which the PRM toilet door bounces open on every bump, while the spacesaver toilet is impossible to open with the lack of a handle or anything to grab onto. Terrible trains, creaking themselves apart.

That does sound bad. How the heck was such a layout approved?

 

[Energy]

That does sound bad. How the heck was such a layout approved?

They have a lot of seats. That's it.

 

[Whistler40145]

153s, pretty dire in hot weather, like a greenhouse on wheels

Class 319s, suitable during their time with Thameslink,but unsuitable for Northern.

Class 769, not the best idea on this planet, more 195s would've been a better solution

 

[Failed Unit]

153s, pretty dire in hot weather, like a greenhouse on wheels

Class 319s, suitable during their time with Thameslink,but unsuitable for Northern.

Class 769, not the best idea on this planet, more 195s would've been a better solution

Never liked the 153. More cramped then the 156. I always used to take the other unit on a 153 / 15x combo.

 

[Purple Train]

They have a lot of seats. That's it.

Surely it would have been plain common sense to make them either shorter 4-coach sets and double them up or make the individual units longer. Replacing an eight-coach train with a five-coach train presumably only works capacity-wise if you don't have many seats and give lots of standing room. If you have predominantly seated space then it's basically like fitting a camel into the eye of a needle. And, anyway, wasn't the original bodyshell designed with a metro layout in mind (which has fewer seats)?

To get back on topic, I've just thought of yet another entrant - the class 80x for its horrible seating. The longest journey I've undertaken on one was 20 minutes from Reading-Swindon - and that was quite enough. I sincerely hope I don't have to go down to Plymouth any time soon.

 

[MattRat]

Re your first para, l know and l sometimes use them hence my concern. It would be quite an "achievement" to replace the 350/2s with something worse.

I don't get all the hate for the 350/2s. Perfectly fine regional units to get from A to B, just nothing particularly special either.

Only gripe I could think of would be the alarm noise they make leaving a station, but honestly, it's a bit of character, and all trains need something like that IMO. Like the traction motor sounds on the 323.

 

[XAM2175]

Surely it would have been plain common sense to make them either shorter 4-coach sets and double them up or make the individual units longer. Replacing an eight-coach train with a five-coach train presumably only works capacity-wise if you don't have many seats and give lots of standing room. If you have predominantly seated space then it's basically like fitting a camel into the eye of a needle. And, anyway, wasn't the original bodyshell designed with a metro layout in mind (which has fewer seats)?

The DfT constructed the tender scoring system to favour proposals that offered large numbers of seats (based on pre-Covid modelling, obviously), so that's what Abellio promised to deliver. That's pretty much all there is to it.

 

[xotGD]

Never liked the 153. More cramped then the 156. I always used to take the other unit on a 153 / 15x combo.

I was the opposite. 2+2 seating with tables on the 153, and doors at the ends so you don't freeze at every station stop - much better than a Northern 150.

 

[Railcar]

Any EMU made by Seimens which use their squealing inverters e.g. 700s. A horrid noise.

 

[Trainbike46]

Class 390 Pendolino

For some reason the way it moves makes me feel sick, I guess it's probably related to the tilt mechanism? The train also feels cramped and the windows are too small. I can't wait for the Avanti 80x units to offer an alternative on at least some routes.

 

[HarryF]

Worst train today?
I’ll go with the class 180. Yes, the window alignment is great but I’ve travelled on the entire fleet over the years and they’re a bit shakey. The tables vibrate and the reliability is probably best left to another thread.

 

[Class360/1]

Defo 153s (especially the awful Anglia refurbs) and any train with the old Virgin interior (ie XC 220).

The NXEA 156s are quite nice (the ones that aren’t falling apart)

 

[150249]

Worst train today?
I’ll go with the class 180. Yes, the window alignment is great but I’ve travelled on the entire fleet over the years and they’re a bit shakey. The tables vibrate and the reliability is probably best left to another thread.

A bit smoky

 

[HarryF]

A bit smoky

Very good! In all my journeys I never has that happen (thankfully)

Another contender for worst train would be the XC Turbostars with too many seats crammed in. I’m quite small and I can’t get in them

 

[Avidfan]

Class 390 Pendolino

For some reason the way it moves makes me feel sick, I guess it's probably related to the tilt mechanism? The train also feels cramped and the windows are too small. I can't wait for the Avanti 80x units to offer an alternative on at least some routes.

I've spent more than I'd care to calculate travelling on these and initially had the same problem. Ended up being easily solved. Always travel facing backwards - no sicky feeling

 

[QSK19]

A bit smoky

I remember when I was at the station waiting to see an EMR 180 for the first time (the day after they started passenger services on the MML), it was announced that the service was running late due to a “fault with the train”. Not a good start

 

[150249]

I remember when I was at the station waiting to see an EMR 180 for the first time (the day after they started passenger services on the MML), it was announced that the service was running late due to a “fault with the train”. Not a good start

Was going to get on one once. It was running 3 hours late. Gave up and got an hst

 

[JD2168]

Class 150, noisy, slam doors in middle banging every 5 minutes if not shut right, poor seating layout, the facing seats are too tight together to be comfortable.

Class 195, not enough seats for me, always feels as though they are very full quite quickly as though the 158 in particular has more seats.

 

[HarryF]

Just thought of another
Class 769
Oh….the noise
Enough to give me a headache even thinking of it!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also I see a lot of 720 hate here. I can't help but raise an eyebrow at this. I've never been on one yet but as I understand it aren't they more or less the same as a 345 just with a different seating layout? I find the 345s perfectly fine for the Elizabeth Line so does different seats really make such a drastic difference?

The seats and layout are the problem. They are too narrow, the legroom is awful and window alignment poor.

At the very least I struggle to imagine them being worse than the stock they're replacing.

They are, yes, massively. Ex BR 20m stock is just about wide enough for 3+2, these aren't.

 

[Rheoman]

Class 390 Pendolino

For some reason the way it moves makes me feel sick, I guess it's probably related to the tilt mechanism? The train also feels cramped and the windows are too small. I can't wait for the Avanti 80x units to offer an alternative on at least some routes.

I’ve been driving them since their introduction and never felt sick once!
I was travelling passenger on one a few years back and overheard a passenger moaning that she was feeling rough due to the tilt. I didn’t have the heart to tell her that set was non tilt that day!