The worst train today?

[AM9]

I think that's unduly harsh on them. They do tend to be reasonably reliable, and you can achieve a lot in terms of passenger experience with attention to detail in the interiors, such as with the Wessex examples.

The thread is about my (least) best train, - the 'worst train' expression wasn't actually in the OP's post. I personally think they are (now) an abomination. The first 150s I went on were those on the GOBlin, whic whilst far from new were clearly way past their best. My main complaint is the din they make - thrash of a clapped out boat engine. I have no complaint about 1/3 2/3 doors unlike some here, because they are really just the diesel equivalent of a MKIII EMU, and they were probably a welcome introduction in the '80s replacing various boneshaking 1st generation DMUs. But as everybody here comments, DMUs have a shorter working life than EMUs and the 150s really show both their ageing state of repair and their ageing design. To continue to keep them in service is a big negative and in some cases a disincentive to travellers. To put them on runs exceeding 50 miles, (say over 1 1/2 hours) is unacceptable.
I'm not bein an elitist Home Counties traveller here, there are still quite a few trains in use that are really past it down here, (I'm thinking PEP derivatives, some of the Networkers and even Electrostars i.e. 376s) but none of those are DMUs so their extended life makes them bearable. In the late '80s and early '90s I was commuting in Thumpers, - they were no better than the GEML compartment stock that I used in the 60s/70s but even in 88 they were quieter than the 150s and by then they were 30 years old vs the 150s' 10 years or so.
If this was a thread about seating, I agree that like most of the numerous clsses that have been redeployed in areas different to their original routes have addressed '80s comfort seating in different ways, but to use a different similie, yuo can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

 

[QSK19]

Bombardier didn’t deserve to win the contract. The toys-out-of-the-pram afterwards rather underlined the point. The fact that Bombardier Transportation no longer exists rather underscores what an utterly rotten organisation it was.

That I do agree with to some extent (there were many aspects of work life there which I don’t miss at all and the way I run HR at my current employer is poles apart from the Bombardier way); however, the aftermath of losing Thameslink was nevertheless a time of much worry, particularly so uncertainty over job security - news that your employer has lost a £1.4bn contract invariably makes you worry about being made redundant. It’s those things that the 700s remind me of.

 

[43096]

That I do agree with to some extent (there were many aspects of work life there which I don’t miss at all and the way I run HR at my current employer is poles apart from the Bombardier way); however, the aftermath of losing Thameslink was nevertheless a time of much worry, particularly so uncertainty over job security - news that your employer has lost a £1.4bn contract invariably makes you worry about being made redundant. It’s those things that the 700s remind me of.

I know the feeling, having been in a company that basically had to win a Government contract to keep the site open. We didn't. And I'd say the company made some of the same mistake Bombardier did with the Thameslink tender.

 

[D365]

Same with 317/321. On GN a 317 could reach 90mph by Alexandra Palace, but would take until Welham Green to finally reach 100. 321s were similar although more variable.

By contrast, a 365 will be doing 95 mph at Alexandra Palace, and what happened next would depend more on how the driver handled the neutral section, but generally a 365 would first see 100 at Oakleigh Park.

387 and 700 seem to be even more impacted by the neutral section, but will generally reach 100 mph by Barnet Tunnel.

Never done the journey in a 319 unfortunately!

Is that not because Class 319s never operated on the East Coast in passenger service. Do you mean a different 31x?

 

[BoroAndy]

Are any 142s still in use

 

[D365]

Bombardier didn’t deserve to win the contract. The toys-out-of-the-pram afterwards rather underlined the point. The fact that Bombardier Transportation no longer exists rather underscores what an utterly rotten organisation it was.

Not sure how much is citeable, but I’ve heard some interesting tales about the (former) BT folk in Berlin…

 

[yorksrob]

The thread is about my (least) best train, - the 'worst train' expression wasn't actually in the OP's post. I personally think they are (now) an abomination. The first 150s I went on were those on the GOBlin, whic whilst far from new were clearly way past their best. My main complaint is the din they make - thrash of a clapped out boat engine. I have no complaint about 1/3 2/3 doors unlike some here, because they are really just the diesel equivalent of a MKIII EMU, and they were probably a welcome introduction in the '80s replacing various boneshaking 1st generation DMUs. But as everybody here comments, DMUs have a shorter working life than EMUs and the 150s really show both their ageing state of repair and their ageing design. To continue to keep them in service is a big negative and in some cases a disincentive to travellers. To put them on runs exceeding 50 miles, (say over 1 1/2 hours) is unacceptable.
I'm not bein an elitist Home Counties traveller here, there are still quite a few trains in use that are really past it down here, (I'm thinking PEP derivatives, some of the Networkers and even Electrostars i.e. 376s) but none of those are DMUs so their extended life makes them bearable. In the late '80s and early '90s I was commuting in Thumpers, - they were no better than the GEML compartment stock that I used in the 60s/70s but even in 88 they were quieter than the 150s and by then they were 30 years old vs the 150s' 10 years or so.
If this was a thread about seating, I agree that like most of the numerous clsses that have been redeployed in areas different to their original routes have addressed '80s comfort seating in different ways, but to use a different similie, yuo can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

Well, the northern 3+2 airline seated ones are amongst my least favourite trains at the moment ! I do like the opening Windows though.

 

[Richard Scott]

Time for one of my periodic "Voyagers aren't terrible even though they replaced hauled stock" posts. As ever, those who think they're the the worst current train have clearly never travelled in coach D on a Virgin / Avanti Voyager, otherwise they'd know Voyagers can also have one of the best standard class layouts of any train currently in use.

Afraid all that statement says is that current trains are poorly designed. I disagree it's the best of current train designs but then most are pretty poor.

 

[mmh]

Afraid all that statement says is that current trains are poorly designed. I disagree it's the best of current train designs but then most are pretty poor.

Which current long-distance trains do you think have a better standard class environment than it? It's the closest to a modern version of a mk2 that I can think of!

 

[trainmania100]

Personally don't like tube trains due to the fact they're often very busy.

 

[Richard Scott]

Which current long-distance trains do you think have a better standard class environment than it? It's the closest to a modern version of a mk2 that I can think of!

If I'm honest none really in this country, German ICE trains probably one of the best (401 or 402 as no irritating traction noises in those). Don't mind Mark 5s as quieter than units but, in reality, still not that great. Considering nearly 60 years since first mark 2s came out it's appalling that train design hasn't really improved. If you compare modern road coaches to a 1960s product there is no comparison but interiors of trains have not improved much, if at all, in that time.

 

[DM352]

When the 319s were introduced I remember them being very quick - in fact one was I’m sure used on a London to Brighton record run. An 8 car class 375 formation struggles to keep up with a pair of 319s when they race between Swanley and St Mary Cray. And that’s on DC third rail. They are faster on AC.

So why are they so bad up north compared to Sprinters etc which are slow ? Are the 319s knackered ?

The 319s were used pretty hard in Thameslink days wih mileage and higher speeds as there was never enough spare stock in early days with some given to SouthCentral/Connex. Am surprised they are still going with Northern as the performance is going slowly towards the 116/115 4 car units

For space, I would rather have a 319/769 than a 2 car 150 where they should have had a centre car when built of the government at the time liked railways more.

The 375/377 performance I read somewhere the 3rd rail traction power was reduced so sub stations could keep up.

 

[Andyh82]

As it happens my height is roughly that and I have long legs. However, I'd still take the Ashbourne over sitting on the floor. I would take standing in the doorway over the Ashbourne though unless the journey is longer than 20 mins or so!


There are also still plenty with Northern, as the Arriva "Northern Spirit" ones had a cheaper refurb that kept the old seats, as did the LM and GW ones that came up north in the earlier days of the current Northern incarnation.

The Turbos have different seats which, while still not brilliant, are hugely preferable to the rubbish in the Mk3-based stuff.

To be accurate I don’t think those 150s had any refurbishment until recently

Whereas First North Western changed the seats and the layout in theirs, Northern Spirit did nothing to theirs (focussing on the 142/156/158s), neither did Arriva Trains Northern, and by the start of the Serco Abellio Northern franchise they were still fully Regional Railways both inside and out. All Serco Abellio did was change the seat covers to that awful blue and purple pinstripe design. It was only under Northern by Arriva, that any sort of refurbishment happened, and even now it’s still with the original seats.

 

[Bikeman78]

Same with 317/321. On GN a 317 could reach 90mph by Alexandra Palace, but would take until Welham Green to finally reach 100. 321s were similar although more variable.

By contrast, a 365 will be doing 95 mph at Alexandra Palace, and what happened next would depend more on how the driver handled the neutral section, but generally a 365 would first see 100 at Oakleigh Park.

I think it's slightly uphill from Alexandra Palace to Potters Bar which won't help. The most crazy run I had on 317s was on the 1515 up from Cambridge. Handle back at Hitchin they got up to 100 somewhere around the Welwyn tunnels and cruised along at 102/103 until a rather heavy brake application for the drop in line speed around Alexandra Palace. I think they'd have done it in 45 minutes of the 1600 to Aberdeen hadn't got in the way at King's Cross.

 

[PG]

Northern has done well with 323s though, they are very nice IMO. 365s would have been even better.

Shame none are available. Oh wait...

 

[antharro]

The GatEx Electrostars. Uncomfortable ironing board seats, retina burning lighting, and first class that is just an antimacassar on the same godawful seats.

 

[notadriver]

I think it's slightly uphill from Alexandra Palace to Potters Bar which won't help. The most crazy run I had on 317s was on the 1515 up from Cambridge. Handle back at Hitchin they got up to 100 somewhere around the Welwyn tunnels and cruised along at 102/103 until a rather heavy brake application for the drop in line speed around Alexandra Palace. I think they'd have done it in 45 minutes of the 1600 to Aberdeen hadn't got in the way at King's Cross.

It’s an 8 mile climb of 1 in 200 to Potters Bar a formidable to steam. It’s downhill through the Welwyn tunnels so gravity would have helped although it’s uphill towards Potters Bar from after Welwyn G C so I would expect speed to fall off slightly with a 317.

 

[MattRat]

Personally don't like tube trains due to the fact they're often very busy.

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned metro/light rail stock yet, as I didn't discount it.

 

[AM9]

It does seem to be the case that they were thrashed on Thameslink, and have never really had much love either on Thameslink or since.

321s would have been better, but weren’t available at the required time. Northern has done well with 323s though, they are very nice IMO. 365s would have been even better.

The 321s wouldn't have been suitable if they were available as they were ac only. It wouldn't just be a matter of adding collector shoes, - their traction current is controlled at the ac stage, straight after the transformer and then rectified to produce a variable DC for the motors. The 319s had a DC bus, fed either from the rectified transformer low voltage output or direct from the 3rd rail. A separate traction control unit using GTOs (Gate Turn Off) thyristors in an electronic chopper to produce a variable DC for the motors.

 

[bramling]

I think it's slightly uphill from Alexandra Palace to Potters Bar which won't help. The most crazy run I had on 317s was on the 1515 up from Cambridge. Handle back at Hitchin they got up to 100 somewhere around the Welwyn tunnels and cruised along at 102/103 until a rather heavy brake application for the drop in line speed around Alexandra Palace. I think they'd have done it in 45 minutes of the 1600 to Aberdeen hadn't got in the way at King's Cross.

Yes a climb as you describe, which has always made timing / GPS interesting to observe on this section, as well as producing a lively run on the DC motor EMUs. Barring the neutral sections, a 317 or 321 would often be on full power from Finsbury Park as far as about Welham Green. 365 less so as the train would otherwise exceed 100.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2022 ==

The 321s wouldn't have been suitable if they were available as they were ac only. It wouldn't just be a matter of adding collector shoes, - their traction current is controlled at the ac stage, straight after the transformer and then rectified to produce a variable DC for the motors. The 319s had a DC bus, fed either from the rectified transformer low voltage output or direct from the 3rd rail. A separate traction control unit using GTOs (Gate Turn Off) thyristors in an electronic chopper to produce a variable DC for the motors.

I was thinking of 321s instead of the Northern 319s. It’s a fair point that this would have introduced inconsistency with the 769s, however to be honest I wouldn’t have bothered with those. They’ve hardly been a roaring success…

 

[XAM2175]

Considering nearly 60 years since first mark 2s came out it's appalling that train design hasn't really improved.

I'd suggest that passenger safety has improved dramatically.

 

[AM9]

I was thinking of 321s instead of the Northern 319s. It’s a fair point that this would have introduced inconsistency with the 769s, however to be honest I wouldn’t have bothered with those. They’ve hardly been a roaring success…

Ah yes I see, - they were the first of the large MKIII fleets to be released for transfer.

 

[Falcon1200]

Any train with predominantly or solely longitudinal seating; Yes TfL, I'm looking at you. Gazing out of the window is a major pleasure of rail travel.

 

[Julia]

Given that the most fundamental purpose is to carry people from A to B, I'd nominate the 701s as the worst today. When one finally achieves that purpose, I'll rethink my opinion...

 

[Gareth]

Went on a 319 yesterday and felt it was far from terrible (for a short journey, at least). Past their best and probably nearing the end of their working lives but far better than a pacer or 150.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Went on a 319 yesterday and felt it was far from terrible (for a short journey, at least). Past their best and probably nearing the end of their working lives but far better than a pacer or 150.

A 319 and a double 150 are basically the same thing give or take engine noise and pollution, not a lot to choose between them in my view. That said, a 319/2 or /4 is nicer because they have the lower density 2+2 seating layouts, but Northern's are all 3+2 facing throughout (/0s?), aren't they?

Having been on one, there's very little to choose between a double 150 and a 769. The latter has less polluting engines, but the former is quicker off the mark (769s are hellishly sluggish) and might actually get there without breaking down.

 

[Towers]

Surely the very worst train is a rail replacement bus?

I've been on replacement coaches with significantly more comfortable interiors than certain rolling stock!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been on replacement coaches with significantly more comfortable interiors than certain rolling stock!

During the FNW weekend strikes of the 1990s/early 2000s, a fancy coach was a bit of an upgrade on a 150 or 142

 

[Bikeman78]

I'd suggest that passenger safety has improved dramatically.

Does it have to be a choice between safety and comfort? The biggest factor for safety has been TPWS. There haven't been many accidents since it was introduced.

 

[Towers]

During the FNW weekend strikes of the 1990s/early 2000s, a fancy coach was a bit of an upgrade on a 150 or 142

Although now of course you're more likely to have a spartan bus of some description imposed upon you, with the relative scarcity of accessible high spec coaches