The Worcester problem - miserable service to the south

[70014IronDuke]

The thread on the supposed success of Worcestershire Parkway had me wanting to respond: Well, if the operating authority had given Worcester (Shrub Hill) a decent Brum - Worcester - Bristol (or Cardiff) service in the first place, we wouldn't have needed the Parkway.

As I remember it, there used to be 5-6 daily NE - SW services routed via Worcester in the 60s. Later, when the LMR initiated a second, more semi-fast DMU service on the NE - SW route (which I assume was the precusor to the modern time XC Nottingham-Cardiff service), this was usually routed via Worcester. I think this was started in the late 70s or early 80s, but I was a bit out of things then. Whatever, before too long, the extra time taken by the Worcester diversion and the desire for faster trains meant Worcester was dropped. (See Northampton, it's not only you that miss out on a slower loop!)

My speculative suggestion today is: can this forum see any chance of Worcester itself getting a better, faster service to the south - probaby Bristol, or possibly Cardiff - than the pretty dire, slow 1TP2H GWR service with which it is saddled today to Bristol/Weymouth?

I assume it would be very difficult to find a path from Worcester to Birmingham NS these days, are there any other possible end stations for such a service?

I don't know the possible route layouts in the west Midlands, but eg could a Cardiff/Bristol TM - Worcester - Kidderminster or somewhere in the W Midlands work? (Unlikely, I suspect, but this is speculation!)

 

[JonathanH]

I assume it would be very difficult to find a path from Worcester to Birmingham NS these days, are there any other possible end stations for such a service?

The hourly path is used to run a direct service from Birmingham to Hereford, with a few peak time extras.

That wasn't the case when what is now the Nottingham to Cardiff service ran via Worcester in the 1990s every two hours. Hereford was typically served via Kidderminster with only a handful of trains using the Bromsgrove route.

My speculative suggestion today is: can this forum see any chance of Worcester itself getting a better, faster service to the south - probaby Bristol, or possibly Cardiff - than the pretty dire, slow 1TP2H GWR service with which it is saddled today to Bristol/Weymouth?

I realise that the trains are slow south of Gloucester, but has the frequency of trains from Worcester to Cheltenham and Gloucester actually ever been better than it is now (other than for a short period when London Midland ran a Worcester to Gloucester shuttle which was poorly used)? There is an hourly service to Bristol now, no longer 1tp2h.

Worcestershire Parkway is clearly the result of a the time penalty of diverting trains via Shrub Hill, and the awkward bits of single track in the area.

 

[Bartsimho]

I wonder if a service which ran from Moor Street to Cardiff would work. Having a pattern of Moor Street, Snow Hill, Rowley Regis, Stourbridge Junction, Kidderminster, Droitwich Spa, Worcester Shrub Hill, Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Chepstow, Newport, Cardiff?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The thread on the supposed success of Worcestershire Parkway had me wanting to respond: Well, if the operating authority had given Worcester (Shrub Hill) a decent Brum - Worcester - Bristol (or Cardiff) service in the first place, we wouldn't have needed the Parkway.

As I remember it, there used to be 5-6 daily NE - SW services routed via Worcester in the 60s. Later, when the LMR initiated a second, more semi-fast DMU service on the NE - SW route (which I assume was the precusor to the modern time XC Nottingham-Cardiff service), this was usually routed via Worcester. I think this was started in the late 70s or early 80s, but I was a bit out of things then. Whatever, before too long, the extra time taken by the Worcester diversion and the desire for faster trains meant Worcester was dropped. (See Northampton, it's not only you that miss out on a slower loop!)

My speculative suggestion today is: can this forum see any chance of Worcester itself getting a better, faster service to the south - probaby Bristol, or possibly Cardiff - than the pretty dire, slow 1TP2H GWR service with which it is saddled today to Bristol/Weymouth?

I assume it would be very difficult to find a path from Worcester to Birmingham NS these days, are there any other possible end stations for such a service?

I don't know the possible route layouts in the west Midlands, but eg could a Cardiff/Bristol TM - Worcester - Kidderminster or somewhere in the W Midlands work? (Unlikely, I suspect, but this is speculation!)

The hourly service provided by GWR from Worcester to Cheltenham, Gloucester and Bristol seems a reasonable frequency, I’m not sure how frequent a service you are after?

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder if a service which ran from Moor Street to Cardiff would work. Having a pattern of Moor Street, Snow Hill, Rowley Regis, Stourbridge Junction, Kidderminster, Droitwich Spa, Worcester Shrub Hill, Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Chepstow, Newport, Cardiff?

What would be the purpose of this service?

 

[ValleyLines142]

The hourly service provided by GWR from Worcester to Cheltenham, Gloucester and Bristol seems a reasonable frequency, I’m not sure how frequent a service you are after?

Indeed, Gloucester to Worcester is now hourly.

 

[Bartsimho]

What would be the purpose of this service?

Relieve some of the crowding on the XC service between Cardiff and Birmingham New Street, connect Worcester itself to Cardiff as well as surrounding towns, increase frequency between Gloucester and Worcester to 2tph

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Relieve some of the crowding on the XC service between Cardiff and Birmingham New Street, connect Worcester itself to Cardiff as well as surrounding towns, increase frequency between Gloucester and Worcester to 2tph

Does Gloucester to Worcester really need a half-hourly service? I’d be very surprised if the economics stacked up for this.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The hourly service provided by GWR from Worcester to Cheltenham, Gloucester and Bristol seems a reasonable frequency, I’m not sure how frequent a service you are after?

AH! Sorry, I hadn't realised it's gone to hourly - it was just 1TP2H (as I'm sure you know).

I don't think it's really a very good service, but in the current circumstances, and with Worcestershire Parkway now built and running, I accept that it would be difficult to provide Worcester City with much more.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think it's really a very good service.

What are you looking for?

An hourly connection into long distance services at Cheltenham and direct services to Gloucester, Birmingham and Bristol seems reasonable.

 

[edwin_m]

The hourly service provided by GWR from Worcester to Cheltenham, Gloucester and Bristol seems a reasonable frequency, I’m not sure how frequent a service you are after?

The problem with this service for Worcester-Bristol passengers is that it goes into Gloucester to reverse, then picks up the local stops south of Gloucester. However, there's a good same-platform connection at Cheltenham into the faster XC service to Bristol, and similarly northbound where the XC starts at Bristol in most hours, so less likely to be delayed than the one that comes through from further south.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The problem with this service for Worcester-Bristol passengers is that it goes into Gloucester to reverse, then picks up the local stops south of Gloucester.

I’m not sure there’s either capacity of demand to have the current XC service, make the service from Worcester fast and have a local service.

Gloucester has always been a time penalty on that route, pre operation princess many XC services used to run via Gloucester with run rounds etc.

 

[70014IronDuke]

What are you looking for?

An hourly connection into long distance services at Cheltenham and direct services to Gloucester, Birmingham and Bristol seems reasonable.

Yes, in the circumstances, I agree. Still not exactly enticing people to travel longer distances though, is it? Nor even Bristol, given it's an all stations. But at least an hourly service, assuming no repeated cancellations, is something basic to rejoice over.

 

[JonathanH]

Still not exactly enticing people to travel longer distances though, is it?

OK, but what are you asking for? Are you suggesting that Worcester should have a service every few hours to Plymouth with the otherwise standard XC calling pattern, missing Gloucester?

 

[mangyiscute]

Another issue is that due to the demographic of the people who live in these areas (Worcester, Gloucester, Cheltenham), I imagine car usage is quite high in these areas and public transport usage is quite low, so it doesn't necessarily warrant as frequent a service as similar places in different parts of the country.
Ultimately, the only real option would be to build a new high speed track through Worcester, but that'll never happen

 

[AndrewE]

Another issue is that due to the demographic of the people who live in these areas (Worcester, Gloucester, Cheltenham), I imagine car usage is quite high in these areas and public transport usage is quite low, so it doesn't necessarily warrant as frequent a service as similar places in different parts of the country.
Ultimately, the only real option would be to build a new high speed track through Worcester, but that'll never happen

I think that whenever I have been on a train that called at Worcester or Gloucester, but especially Cheltenham, I havealways been struck by the number of people on the platform and especially the younger demographic.
We need to remember the growing proportion of young people who can't afford to learn to drive or (if they can) can't afford a car or the insurance.
Remember that not having a driving licence was one of the ways people were disenfranchised from voting at the last elections...

 

[DPWH2]

Look at Worcester on a map.

1. It's outside the London commuter belt, the people still need to get to the capital for business.
2. It is however close enough to Birmingham for commuters to go there.
3. Links to the south would be decidedly third priority.

If both of (1) & (2) are decent enough, then (3) is going to look bad to Worcestrians. Maybe they're lucky to have the (1) and (2) they do have.

 

[70014IronDuke]

OK, but what are you asking for? Are you suggesting that Worcester should have a service every few hours to Plymouth with the otherwise standard XC calling pattern, missing Gloucester?

As I wrote, now there is both WOP and a 1 TPH to Bristol, trying to justify (or path) any additional service is much else is pretty hopeless, I should imagine.

But yes, if the GWR service had stayed at 1Tp2H, some sort of express service to the south-west, Exeter or Plymouth would be useful, again, on a 1Tp2H basis.

But in today's congested railway, that would make the arrival patterns at New Street (and Cheltenham) different for the two different services - so even if Worcester's 105,000 population deserve a proper inter-city service, they wouldn't get it.