The Waterloo & City Line

[AY1975]

The Waterloo & City has been mentioned in passing in several threads, but as far as I can see there has never been a dedicated thread on the W&C as such. Not sure whether this belongs under London Underground or Railway History & Nostalgia, especially as it was historically a London & South Western Railway/Southern Railway/British Rail line and only became part of the LU in 1994.

I was trying to remember when the Saturday service was increased from mornings only to at least part of the afternoon (about 07.00 to 18.00 as I recall) and then all day. If I remember rightly it started running in at least the early to mid afternoon on Saturdays after the 1993 modernisation, and was then extended to run all day Saturday after the 2006 refurbishment of the line. Now, of course, the line has effectively gone full circle, with the Saturday service having been withdrawn at the start of the Covid pandemic in 2020 and so far it has never been reinstated.

I believe that the line had a special Sunday service during the 2012 Olympics, but apart from that has the line ever had a Sunday service?

I also seem to recall that back in the 1980s there was a plan for an intermediate station on the line at Blackfriars, but that scheme never saw the light of day.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I wonder when the line's nickname 'The Drain' was first spoken?

 

[Ken H]

How did it end up in London Transport? (or was it TfL then?). I know the trains were an add on the Central line stock, but they were BR when new.

 

[Gloster]

I wonder when the line's nickname 'The Drain' was first spoken?

Brewer’s Dictionary of London Phrase & Fable (Willey, Chambers, 2010, p.b.) says it dates from the 1920s. It says that at first it was derogatory but latterly was almost affectionate.

 

[MasterSpenny]

I believe that the line had a special Sunday service during the 2012 Olympics, but apart from that has the line ever had a Sunday service?

The Waterloo & City on Sundays (and now Saturdays) on the Elizabeth Line always shows ‘Planned Closure’, so I don’t think it’s ever been in place on a normal day.

I wonder if it could have a station at Southwark, as the Waterloo & City is directly above where it is shown on the Tube Maps I’ve seen and the Tube Map app on my phone. Or is the Tube Map not accurately created, and it’s way different in person?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I've always wondered if the Northern Heights line was built, whether the Moorgate branch could have been connected to the Waterloo and City to create a third crossing for the Northern Line. Would have made a great express tube line nowadays for the southern end of the line. Balham-Clapham Common-Waterloo-Bank-Moorgate.

Always loved the NSE livered sets on the 92 stock. I wish London Underground kept it, its vaguely similar to the TfL livery anyway

 

[Purple Train]

I wonder if it could have a station at Southwark, as the Waterloo & City is directly above where it is shown on the Tube Maps I’ve seen and the Tube Map app on my phone. Or is the Tube Map not accurately created, and it’s way different in person?

No, I believe the map is wrong. Certainly if you're talking about the diagrammatic map, then it can't be trusted for matters of geography like that.

It goes under the northern end of Blackfriars and then virtually under Mansion House - Google Maps, while that won't be perfectly accurate, is fairly good.

 

[rebmcr]

I've always wondered if the Northern Heights line was built, whether the Moorgate branch could have been connected to the Waterloo and City to create a third crossing for the Northern Line. Would have made a great express tube line nowadays for the southern end of the line. Balham-Clapham Common-Waterloo-Bank-Moorgate.

Many have wondered this.

However, the Bank of England vault is in the way.

 

[Snow1964]

I've always wondered if the Northern Heights line was built, whether the Moorgate branch could have been connected to the Waterloo and City to create a third crossing for the Northern Line. Would have made a great express tube line nowadays for the southern end of the line. Balham-Clapham Common-Waterloo-Bank-Moorgate.

Always loved the NSE livered sets on the 92 stock. I wish London Underground kept it, its vaguely similar to the TfL livery anyway

The W&C is almost same height as Central so couldn't just extend it without sharp vertical deviation. The W&C was opened before the Central line was extended from Bank to Liverpool Street in 1912 blocking any city extension at Bank end.

W&C is under Queen Victoria Street and not near Bank junction (hence long sloping ramps, travelator). The Northern City is squeezed under Princes Street

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Many have wondered this.

However, the Bank of England vault is in the way.

That was an actual proposal though when the Metropolitan Railway Brought the line in the 1900s.

 

[30907]

How did it end up in London Transport? (or was it TfL then?). I know the trains were an add on the Central line stock, but they were BR when new.

The actual transfer was part of the privatisation process, as the total refurbishment carried out when the 1940 stock was life expired was done to NSE spec.
Tube lines not exactly being a core BR business, I suspect the transfer wasn't contested

 

[MotCO]

Where is the stock maintained? There is a lift in Spur Road near the Old Vic, but I assume that carriages are not lifted out everytime they need maintenance. I thought that the lift was to place new stock on/take old stock off the line.

 

[ShadowKnight]

The W&C is almost same height as Central so couldn't just extend it without sharp vertical deviation. The W&C was opened before the Central line was extended from Bank to Liverpool Street in 1912 blocking any city extension at Bank end.

W&C is under Queen Victoria Street and not near Bank junction (hence long sloping ramps, travelator). The Northern City is squeezed under Princes Street

If a W&C extension were to be done digging new platforms underneath and using the existing ones as a concourse could work

 

[Dstock7080]

Where is the stock maintained? There is a lift in Spur Road near the Old Vic, but I assume that carriages are not lifted out everytime they need maintenance. I thought that the lift was to place new stock on/take old stock off the line.

Stock is maintained in Waterloo depot LU.
The crane in Spur Road is not capable of lifting cars only supplies.

 

[MotCO]

The crane in Spur Road is not capable of lifting cars only supplies.

According to Wikipaedia, the shaft in Spur Road is used to lift vehicles, but it requires a mobile crane to lit the carriages.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If a W&C extension were to be done digging new platforms underneath and using the existing ones as a concourse could work

Wouldn't that be an issue with the Bakerloo / Northern Line tunnels?

 

[Recessio]

How did it end up in London Transport? (or was it TfL then?). I know the trains were an add on the Central line stock, but they were BR when new.

Transferred during BR privatisation. I've heard a few times that legally the line was "sold" from BR to LU for the princely sum of £1, but I'm yet to find a reliable source to back that up.

I wonder if it could have a station at Southwark, as the Waterloo & City is directly above where it is shown on the Tube Maps I’ve seen and the Tube Map app on my phone. Or is the Tube Map not accurately created, and it’s way different in person?

It doesn't really pass under Southwark. It does pass under Blackfriars though, and about twenty years ago, during the Thameslink 2000 program, the Greater London Authority looked into adding an interchange for the W&C at Blackfriars.

Suffice it to say, the cost-benefit ratio was absolutely appalling, due to the high cost of adding a station, the time the line would have to be closed, the significant knock to line speed (and thus capacity) by adding an extra stop. It was an absolute non-starter, even before the impacts of austerity and covid.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I've always wondered if the Northern Heights line was built, whether the Moorgate branch could have been connected to the Waterloo and City to create a third crossing for the Northern Line. Would have made a great express tube line nowadays for the southern end of the line.

Not without substantial alteration. Both stations have platforms that are much shortger than those on the NCL, so either shorter traisn would have had to be run than currentky used on the NCL, or the platforms on the Drain would have to be extended, for which this is no room without encroaching on other infrastructure. And the same applies to the tunnels - too small for main line stock (although that would not eb aproblem if it was integrated into the Northern Line rather than the GN)
And there is simply too much in the way between Bank and Moorgate, starting with the Central Line tunnels. It would have had to dive under all the other lines at Bank (as there is no room to go above or between them) but end up above the Northern Line at Moorgate, as that is where the NCL is.
At the other end, the platforms at Waterloo face towards Elephant (which the Northern already runs to by a more direct route from Bank, via London Bridge) so to serve the SW of London would need to be rebuilt on a different alignment.
So having had to rebuild all three stations, and modify the tunnel between Waterloo and banbk, there would be little left of the original line, and you might as well leave the Drain alone and start from scratch connecting the SWML and the GNML (which is what Crossrail 2 would do if it ever got built)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==

The actual transfer was part of the privatisation process, as the total refurbishment carried out when the 1940 stock was life expired was done to NSE spec.
Tube lines not exactly being a core BR business, I suspect the transfer wasn't contested

Indeed - no franchise would want it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==

Where is the stock maintained? There is a lift in Spur Road near the Old Vic, but I assume that carriages are not lifted out everytime they need maintenance. I thought that the lift was to place new stock on/take old stock off the line.

It is not a lift, just a hole in the ceiling of the depot through which supplies can be craned in and out.

Maintenance is done on site. Major refurbishments were done elsewhere, with a much bigger crane brought in fior the purpose

There used to be a proper carriage lift where the Eurostar terminal now is. As seen here, the 1940 stock just fitted if you removed the drawgear and buffers

It doesn't really pass under Southwark. It does pass under Blackfriars though, and about twenty years ago, during the Thameslink 2000 program, the Greater London Authority looked into adding an interchange for the W&C at Blackfriars.

Suffice it to say, the cost-benefit ratio was absolutely appalling, due to the high cost of adding a station, the time the line would have to be closed, the significant knock to line speed (and thus capacity) by adding an extra stop. It was an absolute non-starter, even before the impacts of austerity and covid.

Capacity was already at the limit in the peaks, with queues at Waterloo. No-one would ever be able to get on at Blackfriars. What would make more sense would be a connection to Mansion House station - the vertical and horizontal distances between the ticket hall at Mansion House and the west end of the platforms at Bank look just about right for an escalator. That woukld make the Drain more useful for people in the wesetrn end of the City, around St Pauls, and reduce congestion on the platforms at Bank, and on the trains, by having entrances at both ends

 

[MotCO]

Not without substantial alteration. Both stations have platforms that are much shortger than those on the NCL, so either shorter traisn would have had to be run than currentky used on the NCL, or the platforms on the Drain would have to be extended, for which this is no room without encroaching on other infrastructure. And the same applies to the tunnels - too small for main line stock (although that would not eb aproblem if it was integrated into the Northern Line rather than the GN)
And there is simply too much in the way between Bank and Moorgate, starting with the Central Line tunnels. It would have had to dive under all the other lines at Bank (as there is no room to go above or between them) but end up above the Northern Line at Moorgate, as that is where the NCL is.
At the other end, the platforms at Waterloo face towards Elephant (which the Northern already runs to by a more direct route from Bank, via London Bridge) so to serve the SW of London would need to be rebuilt on a different alignment.
So having had to rebuild all three stations, and modify the tunnel between Waterloo and banbk, there would be little left of the original line, and you might as well leave the Drain alone and start from scratch connecting the SWML and the GNML (which is what Crossrail 2 would do if it ever got built)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==


Indeed - no franchise would want it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==


It is not a lift, just a hole in the ceiling of the depot through which supplies can be craned in and out.

Maintenance is done on site. Major refurbishments were done elsewhere, with a much bigger crane brought in fior the purpose

There used to be a proper carriage lift where the Eurostar terminal now is. As seen here, the 1940 stock just fitted if you removed the drawgear and buffers

Capacity was already at the limit in the peaks, with queues at Waterloo. No-one would ever be able to get on at Blackfriars. What would make more sense would be a connection to Mansion House station - the vertical and horizontal distances between the ticket hall at Mansion House and the west end of the platforms at Bank look just about right for an escalator. That woukld make the Drain more useful for people in the wesetrn end of the City, around St Pauls, and reduce congestion on the platforms at Bank, and on the trains, by having entrances at both ends

Thanks for the great photos.

 

[Mikey C]

The old Class 487s were lovely trains. Surprisingly different to the 1938 Tube Stock of a similar vintage too.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Heading between Waterloo and Bank you can briefly see the old tunnel to the Armstrong lift to the left shortly after leaving Waterloo. Has anyone actually visited the tunnel and taken photos?

I assume the tunnel is now plugged with concrete since the Eurostar development.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The old Class 487s were lovely trains. Surprisingly different to the 1938 Tube Stock of a similar vintage too.

Indeed - similar in appearance (all that art-deco stuff) but technically closer to the standard stock with their above-floor equipment rooms and large driving wheels. (largely, I suspect, because they used similar bogies and motors to those on other Southern Railway stock)

 

[Snow1964]

Indeed - similar in appearance (all that art-deco stuff) but technically closer to the standard stock with their above-floor equipment rooms and large driving wheels. (largely, I suspect, because they used similar bogies and motors to those on other Southern Railway stock)

My memory is vague now, but didn't the 487s (the 1940 stock) have raised floor over motor bogie, but standard tube stock didn't

They were designed to be used with anything from 0 to 3 trailer cars between them, although in later years, shunting out the trailers off peak wasn't done.

 

[swt_passenger]

No, I believe the map is wrong. Certainly if you're talking about the diagrammatic map, then it can't be trusted for matters of geography like that.

It goes under the northern end of Blackfriars and then virtually under Mansion House - Google Maps, while that won't be perfectly accurate, is fairly good.

An additional station at Blackfriars has sometimes been proposed, based on its known route in the vicinity, but of course that’s been explained as not possible because there’s a steep gradient to get under the river, and any new station would have to be almost level and straight.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2023 ==

I've always wondered if the Northern Heights line was built, whether the Moorgate branch could have been connected to the Waterloo and City to create a third crossing for the Northern Line. Would have made a great express tube line nowadays for the southern end of the line. Balham-Clapham Common-Waterloo-Bank-Moorgate.

Always loved the NSE livered sets on the 92 stock. I wish London Underground kept it, its vaguely similar to the TfL livery anyway

The Waterloo platforms are at 90° to the mainline platforms and point to the southeast, exactly where you wouldn’t want them for such an extension. I’m assuming an extension at either end was never considered because to meet demand for Waterloo to Bank you need empty trains at the start. A third Northern line would need much higher frequency and full length trains.

 

[DelW]

I believe that CartoMetro maps are as geographically accurate as reasonably practical (bearing in mind that lines are often one above another). This extract shows why some of the suggestions above are not really workable:

 

[Basil Jet]

I believe that CartoMetro maps are as geographically accurate as reasonably practical (bearing in mind that lines are often one above another). This extract shows why some of the suggestions above are not really workable:

View attachment 148114

I believe this is the definitive resource for locating Underground assets...
https://tfl.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=5129c766255941d3be16a6828faa8f18

 

[AlastairFraser]

I believe that CartoMetro maps are as geographically accurate as reasonably practical (bearing in mind that lines are often one above another). This extract shows why some of the suggestions above are not really workable:

View attachment 148114

A South Bank station would seem to be possible from that map perhaps, and quite useful for an area that is heavily populated without a particularly close Tube station.

 

[Basil Jet]

A South Bank station would seem to be possible from that map perhaps, and quite useful for an area that is heavily populated without a particularly close Tube station.

... although it is very close to the southern entrance to Blackfriars NR station.

 

[AlastairFraser]

... although it is very close to the southern entrance to Blackfriars NR station.

Yes, however Bank and Waterloo's connections would open up a lot more of London for easy journeys to the South Bank.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Is the any information regarding why the W&C 1992TS received plated over internal and carriage end door buttons while the Central Lines 1992TS did not? Was it some minor cosmetic modification during the CLIP. (Or should I say WCLIP!)