The two strike fail rule

[Greaseball3220]

Obviously practically anyone who wants to be a Driver finds this to be a harsh and draconian regulation as there are very few jobs out there which are similar in the sense of being outdoor based, relatively autonomous and well remunerated.

Does anyone find it at odds though with the supposed ethos of the UK privatised rail network, if they're all private entities in competition then what difference does it make to say Anglia if someone they've turned down for Driving goes to SWT and becomes a Driver ?

 

[Polar]

Actually i find it a very sensible rule as i believe you can either do the tests or you cant!
Yes they could allow you to keep doing them and on your 8th attempt you might fluke it but is that really a good idea?
Having said that i do believe the structured interview should not be a part of the 2 strike rule as i do think someone could fail it twice and still go away and get the required experience.

 

[NSEFAN]

There are enough applicants for each driving role in the railway that train companies can afford to have such strict rules. The safety critical nature of the job means that someone who fails the tests more than twice is probably seen as unsuitable for the role regardless of how much training they might receive.

 

[Clip]

Obviously practically anyone who wants to be a Driver finds this to be a harsh and draconian regulation as there are very few jobs out there which are similar in the sense of being outdoor based, relatively autonomous and well remunerated.

Does anyone find it at odds though with the supposed ethos of the UK privatised rail network, if they're all private entities in competition then what difference does it make to say Anglia if someone they've turned down for Driving goes to SWT and becomes a Driver ?

Well I wouldnt want to go on any train that had a driver fail twice but pass elsewhere.

Obviously the more you do the tests the more you get used to them and therefore understand what is going to come next. If you cant do it in two then I dont want you driving any train I may be on.

Being as draconian as you claim this means they get the best of the best and thats what i want thanks.

 

[SPADTrap]

Does anyone find it at odds though with the supposed ethos of the UK privatised rail network, if they're all private entities in competition then what difference does it make to say Anglia if someone they've turned down for Driving goes to SWT and becomes a Driver ?

No.

It isn't the company who are assessing you - Network Rail are, they take a vested interest in seeing that each driver is safe to drive on their network.

So a standard is very important!

 

[D6975]

A similar rule used to apply in the NHS for nursing qualifications (3 Strike though).
I'm not sure if it still applies, but I would hope so, likewise if there is a similar rule for doctors/surgeons.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

It's been covered before. Specifically people practising for assessments, passing, getting a job then not coping with the course work. I've failed on mmi once and have one attempt left. I don't find that draconian.

 

[Withnailandi]

The only practice stuff you should use is the ones the TOCs send out.

 

[387star]

The pressure is part of the test... that you know you have two attempts

It has been known for people not to come up to the required standard whilst training so this is important

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Take a test enough times and you'll soon be lucky enough to pass it however unsuitable you are. I, for one, am glad there are limits.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Conversely, I've known Driver Managers to say that there are plenty of people who they think would be good Drivers but can't get through the assessment (usually the CBI/MMI) and plenty of people who pass the assessments but don't make good Drivers.

 

[Greaseball3220]

Appreciate the points made, however as someone who grew up on a housing estate previously owned by the old BR, there were legions of Drivers, mainly old Welsh boys who probably did it to avoid the coalmines, that did the job with distinction up to retirement in the 1990's.

These are folk who probably wouldn't be able to negotiate making the online application for it now, not to forget that the actual daily routines and character of the role are of course more hi-tech nowadays.

 

[red2005]

Appreciate the points made, however as someone who grew up on a housing estate previously owned by the old BR, there were legions of Drivers, mainly old Welsh boys who probably did it to avoid the coalmines, that did the job with distinction up to retirement in the 1990's.

These are folk who probably wouldn't be able to negotiate making the online application for it now, not to forget that the actual daily routines and character of the role are of course more hi-tech nowadays.

And that's the Key thing really.....when those rules, times and technology changed the standards required of trainees and the tests they take ultimately must rise too!......that's not to say those ex BR staff aren't of a very good standard as some of the best drivers at our place are ex BR. But times do change!...there was a time when there was a shortage of drivers and it was pretty straight forward to get a job in comparison to today!...the same applies for the fire service but look at the numbers that apply now and how hard the assessments are......it's nigh on impossible to get in!

Also looking at it purely from a company perspective if they are going to shell out over 100k to train a driver and shell out anywhere from 35-60k a year in wages they have a right to pick and choose the best candidates....and with all due respect if you have someone who can get top marks in all assessments or someone who passes after 8 attempts and none stop practicing for the assessments who would you choose?

don't get me wrong I ABSOLUTELY hated the tests and once was enough but there is more to it than just getting right answers....it's about being able to do it when the clock is ticking and there is pressure.

 

[notadriver]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I'll admit I failed my driving test 1st time and my PCV driving test twice before passing on the third attempt with a different company. I put my failures down to an instructor who openly told me I was unsuitable to be a bus driver and I would never get a licence and I should seek an academic career.

I now have over 15 years experience driving PCVs. Would you get on my coach ?

 

[387star]

And that's the Key thing really.....when those rules, times and technology changed the standards required of trainees and the tests they take ultimately must rise too!......that's not to say those ex BR staff aren't of a very good standard as some of the best drivers at our place are ex BR. But times do change!...there was a time when there was a shortage of drivers and it was pretty straight forward to get a job in comparison to today!...the same applies for the fire service but look at the numbers that apply now and how hard the assessments are......it's nigh on impossible to get in!

Also looking at it purely from a company perspective if they are going to shell out over 100k to train a driver and shell out anywhere from 35-60k a year in wages they have a right to pick and choose the best candidates....and with all due respect if you have someone who can get top marks in all assessments or someone who passes after 8 attempts and none stop practicing for the assessments who would you choose?

don't get me wrong I ABSOLUTELY hated the tests and once was enough but there is more to it than just getting right answers....it's about being able to do it when the clock is ticking and there is pressure.

I wouldn't say the core assessments are especially hard if you have the right attributes. The TRP part one and two were especially easy in my opinion.

A lot of it is down to luck and how you perform on the day and of course the competition

I found all assessments bar the MMI very straight forward with the hazard perception being the toughest.

Perhaps the old regime was tougher with the mechanical test and old reactions test but I think if you have the capability this will show

 

[HarleyDavidson]

We had a bloke who came from BT, he passed all of the assessments & got a drivers position, did all of the courses and driving,yet when it came to the exam, he failed the exam twice quite spectacularly by all accounts.

What probably didn't help him,was the fact whilst he was there at the school, he argued with the instructors over things, which is a bad move. As we know if the instructor tells you black is white, then black is white, so on & so forth. If you want to get on up there what they tell you is Gospel.

 

[387star]

We had a bloke who came from BT, he passed all of the assessments & got a drivers position, did all of the courses and driving,yet when it came to the exam, he failed the exam twice quite spectacularly by all accounts.

What probably didn't help him,was the fact whilst he was there at the school, he argued with the instructors over things, which is a bad move. As we know if the instructor tells you black is white, then black is white, so on & so forth. If you want to get on up there what they tell you is Gospel.

almost unbelievable that type of person can get through in the first place but there you go

 

[dakta]

i do feel the test is draconian, because people change, people get better, people get worse and to use one time frame's capability for the next x amount of years worth of driving isn't really all that ideal. Plus the test is hardly a control on driving standard, that comes after. The test is more a viability study on an applicant.

i do appreciate toc's do need very high standards though, i would suggest something like 2 attempts and an enforced 5 year break perhaps

 

[CGS]

It's been covered before. Specifically people practising for assessments, passing, getting a job then not coping with the course work. I've failed on mmi once and have one attempt left. I don't find that draconian.

I failed my MMI last year with TPE on one question as my rules and regulations example was rejected and my alternative was not deemed suitable for whatever reason. Ironically I passed the MMI a year and a day later and used the same example with the same examiner and it was deemed acceptable!

 

[red2005]

I wouldn't say the core assessments are especially hard if you have the right attributes. The TRP part one and two were especially easy in my opinion.

A lot of it is down to luck and how you perform on the day and of course the competition

I found all assessments bar the MMI very straight forward with the hazard perception being the toughest.

Perhaps the old regime was tougher with the mechanical test and old reactions test but I think if you have the capability this will show

I was actually talking about the fire service tests in terms of difficulty lol I found the train driving tests pretty straight forward! I have undertaken the drivers assessments 3 times and been lucky enough to pass them each time but I do believe the latest bout are the easiest especially if you compare them to the old mechanical type ones!

however what is easy for some is difficult for others I suppose and vice versa

 

[HarleyDavidson]

almost unbelievable that type of person can get through in the first place but there you go

He was odd, because you could ask him in a non exam environment and he'd give you the answers, his driving was very good. I guess he just couldn't deal with exam room pressure & tension.

 

[Greaseball3220]

We had a bloke who came from BT, he passed all of the assessments & got a drivers position, did all of the courses and driving,yet when it came to the exam, he failed the exam twice quite spectacularly by all accounts.

What probably didn't help him,was the fact whilst he was there at the school, he argued with the instructors over things, which is a bad move. As we know if the instructor tells you black is white, then black is white, so on & so forth. If you want to get on up there what they tell you is Gospel.

Reminds me of a chap I've heard of who aced all the tests first time and passed out, his downfall was doing 30mph in a 5mph zone, his excuse ?, ''he was bored''!!

 

[Polar]

i do feel the test is draconian, because people change, people get better, people get worse and to use one time frame's capability for the next x amount of years worth of driving isn't really all that ideal. Plus the test is hardly a control on driving standard, that comes after. The test is more a viability study on an applicant.

i do appreciate toc's do need very high standards though, i would suggest something like 2 attempts and an enforced 5 year break perhaps

But again this would surely come down to costs, why would a toc pay for someone who has already failed the tests twice to resit them when they have a massive pool of people to choose from who have never done it and therefore probably have a greater chance of passing.

 

[dakta]

just dont invite them for testing if that's a toc's individual take on it, if they are paying for the testing.

but a toc's view on that matter should not put them in a position to block people from applying elsewhere.

 

[Polar]

Every toc and foc is in the same position they can have thousands of people applying for each position so again why would they spend their money putting someone through who has failed twice when they have so many other people to choose from who haven't been tested.

 

[E&W Lucas]

We had a bloke who came from BT, he passed all of the assessments & got a drivers position, did all of the courses and driving,yet when it came to the exam, he failed the exam twice quite spectacularly by all accounts.

What probably didn't help him,was the fact whilst he was there at the school, he argued with the instructors over things, which is a bad move. As we know if the instructor tells you black is white, then black is white, so on & so forth. If you want to get on up there what they tell you is Gospel.

Interesting. I had an ex - BT bloke do some of his training with me. He didn't get as far as passing out. He'd a problem with doing what he was told. Bye bye.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

just dont invite them for testing if that's a toc's individual take on it, if they are paying for the testing.

but a toc's view on that matter should not put them in a position to block people from applying elsewhere.

You're missing the point. The tests are a national standard, which everyone has to meet. They test innate ability, so there is no point in multiple attempts; you've either got it, or you haven't.

Looking at it from another perspective, I also work in preservation, where the approach is "come and give it a go."
The turnover of Engine Cleaners is phenominal. According to management, only about 10% make it to fireman. We're essentially looking for the same aptitudes, and only a small % of aspirants have them. I did two preservation driving turns last month, had two different cleaners out with me, and both came into the category of liability. One was a liability to himself. Not everyone is cut out for footplate work. Sorry, but that's the way it is, and the tests are an effective and fair pre - screening process.

If you've passed them, you'll probably wonder what all the fuss is about, as the whole proess will have been straightforward and natural.

 

[dakta]

You're missing the point. The tests are a national standard, which everyone has to meet. They test innate ability, so there is no point in multiple attempts; you've either got it, or you haven't.

I have passed mine, and it wasn't hard but that too is not the point.

I've discusses this innate aspect multiple times across forums, and I don't believe much in it, or should I say in how it is tested.

I looked at how people failed the assessments before they changed and found that there was something I didn't like about the test, from feedback I came to a conclusion that whilst people were responding in time to the right stimuli, what actually threw people out was the lack of familiarity with the computer set up. The speed was there, the correctness was there, a lot of dead time was in 'seeking'.

In the same way if I put a non-driver in control of a car, even with a 20 minute unscored warm up period I would not be able to assess their long term aptitude from the next 5 minutes of chaos.

To put this to the test I wrote a peice of software that did not do anything to improve reactions at all, it was useless for testing reactions, you could literally do it over a coffee and there was no timer element at all but what it did do was tackle directly the seeking aspect. All it did was demonstrate what, where. Like a driver has muscle memory for where the steering wheel is.

I think it had an impact.

I'm quite pro-aptitude testing tbh, but against a two strike rule when people who have the aptitude can fail.

 

[Polar]

The last assessment i did there was one bloke who failed the dials test ,personally i found this one of the easiest tests.

He just couldnt understand what he was ment to do even with the opc bloke giving him loads of help with the examples.

Now he might suddenly work out how to do it on his 3rd attempt but the whole point of the test is to show that you can quickly follow instructions and learn to complete a task, yes he probably could do it eventually but how would he really cope once on the course having to learn lots of complex information day after day.

These test are designed to find people suitable to the task you either have it or you dont.

 

[dakta]

I struggled with that part, it's weird though because I've no problems with an altimeter, even when inverted!

But it definitely was for me a case of take your time with the examples. Personally speaking, I am not very good with diagrams (like unfold the shape which some aptitude tests have).

I don't know how or if that would affect anyones bearing on whether i'd be a suitable candidate or not, but I know what i'm like with information retention and reactions in an emergency situation.

edit: I'm not saying people should pass when they shouldn't, but a block on trying is unfair, when there's many reasons, even sheer luck or wellbeing that can cause a fail.

I don't think it would be fair for me to comment on preservation footplate standards.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

The Psycho is the psycho, you either pass it in the required number of times allowed.............or you don't, it's as simple as that, so there is no point in whinging about it. Like it or lump it

I've passed it twice, and I'm thick as a canteen cup, so it can't be that hard