the thinking behind extending Crossrail to Reading

[The Ham]

Split from Would CrossRail 2 affect the SWT Metro lines?

It depends on what they want and how it fits in with their own agenda and schemes.

The only way that Crossrail could benefit others beyond replacing a DMU with an EMU, was in that by extending it that then allows the removal of an additional path being used for stopping trains from Reading to then be used for other services.

Given how busy the railway is getting that is just common sense and although may have been pointed out by someone with connections doesn't mean that it wouldn't have happened anyway, not does t mean that it is a bad thing. Just because something is good for them doesn't mean that it's bad for everyone else. Unless you think that it would have been better for GWR to carry on running services to Paddington and Crossrail just kept to what is was originally designed to do, even if that means that there would be no new posts for long distance services?

 

[Busaholic]

The only way that Crossrail could benefit others beyond replacing a DMU with an EMU, was in that by extending it that then allows the removal of an additional path being used for stopping trains from Reading to then be used for other services.

Given how busy the railway is getting that is just common sense and although may have been pointed out by someone with connections doesn't mean that it wouldn't have happened anyway, not does t mean that it is a bad thing. Just because something is good for them doesn't mean that it's bad for everyone else. Unless you think that it would have been better for GWR to carry on running services to Paddington and Crossrail just kept to what is was originally designed to do, even if that means that there would be no new posts for long distance services?

I can understand the thinking behind extending Crossrail to Reading, and can also understand fully the desire of Reading commuters to get a better service than they are currently accustomed to. I just happen to believe that, in the absence of the prospect of any more fast services to Paddington, and with an empty train drawing into the platform at Reading, that many will be prepared to forsake speed for a seat, particularly if their ultimate destination is on or near the Crossrail route, and that once the trains have left Slough, or maybe before that, they will be jammed to capacity such that West Drayton, Southall and the other passengers will not be able to board. Oh well, there's always the possibility that the Heathrow services will run empty!

 

[coppercapped]

I can understand the thinking behind extending Crossrail to Reading, and can also understand fully the desire of Reading commuters to get a better service than they are currently accustomed to. I just happen to believe that, in the absence of the prospect of any more fast services to Paddington, and with an empty train drawing into the platform at Reading, that many will be prepared to forsake speed for a seat, particularly if their ultimate destination is on or near the Crossrail route, and that once the trains have left Slough, or maybe before that, they will be jammed to capacity such that West Drayton, Southall and the other passengers will not be able to board. Oh well, there's always the possibility that the Heathrow services will run empty!

This has been discussed to death in other threads and other forums. It would appear that you don't understand Crossrail's service offering, 'belief' is not analysis.

Crossrail trains will be permanently 9 coaches long, peak and off-peak. The existing suburban service uses 4, 5 or 6 coach trains in the shoulders and the peaks - there are no more Class 165s and 166s which can be used on the London Thames Valley services. The Class 345 Crossrail trains can each carry 1,500 passengers - on the suburban side there will be a colossal increase in capacity and, for journeys along the Central Line axis, there will be no need to change. During the peaks there will be 2 Crossrail trains inbound from Reading, 4 from Maidenhead, 4 from Slough, 6 from West Drayton and 10 each from Hayes and Harlington, Southall and Ealing Broadway. It will take some years before all of these are full and standing from Slough or Southall. And when push does come to shove the central stations are 250m long so the trains can be lengthened.

Crossrail will not offer a competitive service from Reading - it will take twice as long as the High Speed services; by then the Class 800/801/802s will be coming on line with the capacity increase they offer over the HSTs. In any event there will be many more fast trains than Crossrail trains and few will suddenly decide to take a Crossrail train rather than a high speed one as that will require a platform change from 10/11 to 13 or 14.

Changing to Crossrail at Paddington will be easy, it will be shorter than the walk to the Circle and District lines or that to the Central at Lancaster Gate. It will still be possible to get a seat at Paddington for people off the high speed services as half the eastbound Crossrail trains through the central tunnels will start from Paddington - they will be empty as they arrive at the platform.

 

[The Ham]

I can understand the thinking behind extending Crossrail to Reading, and can also understand fully the desire of Reading commuters to get a better service than they are currently accustomed to. I just happen to believe that, in the absence of the prospect of any more fast services to Paddington, and with an empty train drawing into the platform at Reading, that many will be prepared to forsake speed for a seat, particularly if their ultimate destination is on or near the Crossrail route, and that once the trains have left Slough, or maybe before that, they will be jammed to capacity such that West Drayton, Southall and the other passengers will not be able to board. Oh well, there's always the possibility that the Heathrow services will run empty!

What about the extra Cornish services (IIRC, currently 9per day going to hourly), the Exeter semi fasts and am I right in thinking that there are going to be some extra Bristol services (all once the new trains are here)?

 

[coppercapped]

What about the extra Cornish services (IIRC, currently 9per day going to hourly), the Exeter semi fasts and am I right in thinking that there are going to be some extra Bristol services (all once the new trains are here)?

There are also plans/suggestions/proposals for one or two 'crowd-busting' 8 or 12 coach Class 387s running Reading to Paddington non-stop (and vice versa) at 110mph in the peaks. Sure beats a 90mph most stations Crossrail train...

 

[JonathanH]

If Crossrail had not extended to Reading, you would have needed to find some mechanism for crossing semi-fast trains to the relief line at Maidenhead to provide a service to Twyford that didn't disrupt the fast service.

Yes, there are junctions both sides of Slough, Maidenhead and Ruscombe which allow this but in each case they require the train on the main line to slow down to at least 70mph reducing capacity behind and in the opposing direction.

Far easier to provide (part of) the service to Twyford and from Crossrail stations to Reading by running the Crossrail trains all the way through to Reading.

The number of people changing off the Oxford stopper at Reading onto a fast service should show that people don't always put through trains against speed of journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about the extra Cornish services (IIRC, currently 9per day going to hourly), the Exeter semi fasts and am I right in thinking that there are going to be some extra Bristol services (all once the new trains are here)?

Indications are for a Bristol service that runs fast from Paddington to Bristol Parkway.

 

[route:oxford]

...with an empty train drawing into the platform at Reading...

You do realise that almost as many people commute into Reading as commute out?

The services arriving into Reading are absolutely packed with commuters heading to the Thames Valley's commercial capital.

These trains are going to be well loaded with non-Paddington originating commuters arriving into Reading in the morning and well loaded with non-Paddington destination commuters in the evening.

 

[cactustwirly]

You do realise that almost as many people commute into Reading as commute out?

The services arriving into Reading are absolutely packed with commuters heading to the Thames Valley's commercial capital.

These trains are going to be well loaded with non-Paddington originating commuters arriving into Reading in the morning and well loaded with non-Paddington destination commuters in the evening.

Many people travel from the Thames Valley to the west, changing at Reading. Crossrail will help to facilitate this.

 

[coppercapped]

Many people travel from the Thames Valley to the west, changing at Reading. Crossrail will help to facilitate this.

Why? Crossrail replaces the two Reading terminators - it adds capacity, in that the trains will be much bigger, but it won't change the frequency. From the point of view of passengers travelling westwards along the Thames Valley the trains will be a bit quicker, but otherwise no change. Anyone coming from London will use the High Speed services and change at Reading.

 

[Busaholic]

I may well be wrong in my predictions, only time will tell. It's just noticeable that there has been little complaint from East/South East London and Inner Essex passengers about proposed levels of service on Crossrail, whereas the Reading contingent are getting their retaliations in early. I'm sure it is a reflection on the current poor levels of service from Reading to London, but I still think the question has not been answered as to why Reading was not on the Crossrail map from the beginning - the reasons proffered now did not require a Nostradamus to predict.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I may well be wrong in my predictions, only time will tell. It's just noticeable that there has been little complaint from East/South East London and Inner Essex passengers about proposed levels of service on Crossrail, whereas the Reading contingent are getting their retaliations in early. I'm sure it is a reflection on the current poor levels of service from Reading to London, but I still think the question has not been answered as to why Reading was not on the Crossrail map from the beginning - the reasons proffered now did not require a Nostradamus to predict.

Crossrail didn't want to pay for the rebuild of Reading station. Also, the smaller the scope of the project, the better. Had something gone wrong with the Reading plans it would have distracted from the really important job in the core. By limiting the project to the bare minimum needed to get the core section built, it has helped make it possible to deliver it on time and on budget. Extensions to Reading, Hoo Junction, the WCML or wherever else can be implemented later with no fuss in separate projects without it having any real negative impact on passengers.

 

[JamesRowden]

but I still think the question has not been answered as to why Reading was not on the Crossrail map from the beginning - the reasons proffered now did not require a Nostradamus to predict.

• Cost of electrification for a 2tph service (solved by GWML electrification scheme)
• Lack of platform capacity at Reading (solved by Reading station rebuild)

 

[Busaholic]

• Cost of electrification for a 2tph service (solved by GWML electrification scheme)
• Lack of platform capacity at Reading (solved by Reading station rebuild)

Thank you, question answered. I shall return to my tent.

 

[JonathanH]

current poor levels of service from Reading to London

What?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It gives those on the SWML a viable route to Heathrow Airport (don't know if they'd have to change trains somewhere on XRail in addition to at Reading) avoiding the need to travel all the way into London

 

[Rail.Fan]

CrossRail will be good for Reading you can't just think about the present think about the future more people will be using reading more services will be needed.

 

[jimm]

It gives those on the SWML a viable route to Heathrow Airport (don't know if they'd have to change trains somewhere on XRail in addition to at Reading) avoiding the need to travel all the way into London

Not until the western rail link into Heathrow is built it doesn't, unless you expect them to trundle all the way from Reading to Hayes & Harlington and change there as well to reach the airport. Which is no different from the current situation using GWR services and Heathrow Connect.

 

[swt_passenger]

...don't know if they'd have to change trains somewhere on XRail in addition to at Reading...

Wouldn't it have been a good idea to have a glance at a Crossrail route map then?

 

[D365]

Wouldn't it have been a good idea to have a glance at a Crossrail route map then?

Too obvious for some

 

[Rail.Fan]

Heathrow Express should do service to Heathrow from Reading if they build a new link.

 

[coppercapped]

CrossRail will be good for Reading you can't just think about the present think about the future more people will be using reading more services will be needed.

How often does it have to be said that Crossrail will not, repeat not, increase the frequency of the suburban stopping trains to Paddington. It will replace the two stopping trains to and from Paddington which terminate at, or start from, Reading. The trains might be longer but there will be no more of them.

Apart from adding capacity to the London - Thames Valley local services, Crossrail will make no great difference to the total number of trains serving Reading even if in the next few years the Crossrail services is doubled - more growth will happen on the other routes.

The reason Crossrail is being extended to Reading is for operational convenience. It is to avoid having to operate a Reading-Slough shuttle which would be necessary if Crossrail continued to be terminated at Maidenhead. This would require the building of a bay platform at Slough and an extra train path between Maidenhead and Slough on the Reliefs.

 

[Taunton]

How often does it have to be said that Crossrail will not, repeat not, increase the frequency of the suburban stopping trains to Paddington. It will replace the two stopping trains to and from Paddington which terminate at, or start from, Reading. The trains might be longer but there will be no more of them.

Let us not think that the service plan currently proposed is set in stone for all time. I believe there will be significant changes after it is up and running. It's currently envisaged that Heathrow Express will carry on as if nothing has happened. Not only is that unsustainable but their 25 year contract to use the GWML expires in 2023, and no way will the DfT renew it in its current form where the high prices have caused such political dissatisfaction, let alone squandering of capacity on the Main lines. A deal will be done merging HEx and Crossrail provision in some form.

Likewise I can't see alternating trains on the relief lines formed of 9-car Crossrail, then minimalist GW formation. GW currently regularly send out 2-car sets with standing loads, that attitude will not be allowed to continue. The milksop joint operation will be subsumed into a Crossrail operation.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The DfT don't renew anyone's Track Access Contract. That is the job of the ORR as the economic regulator.

The DfT might object but ultimately it is the ORR that decides.

 

[swt_passenger]

Likewise I can't see alternating trains on the relief lines formed of 9-car Crossrail, then minimalist GW formation. GW currently regularly send out 2-car sets with standing loads, that attitude will not be allowed to continue...

GW's 8 and 12 car EMU services will sort that out before Crossrail even starts, surely?

 

[Taunton]

The DfT don't renew anyone's Track Access Contract. That is the job of the ORR as the economic regulator.

The DfT might object but ultimately it is the ORR that decides.

I believe that Heathrow Express is an unregulated service negotiated separately without ORR involvement. I think Eurostar is the other operator in this position.

 

[JamesRowden]

Let us not think that the service plan currently proposed is set in stone for all time. I believe there will be significant changes after it is up and running. It's currently envisaged that Heathrow Express will carry on as if nothing has happened. Not only is that unsustainable but their 25 year contract to use the GWML expires in 2023, and no way will the DfT renew it in its current form where the high prices have caused such political dissatisfaction, let alone squandering of capacity on the Main lines. A deal will be done merging HEx and Crossrail provision in some form.

The option in the Western Route Study is to replace Heathrow Express with a service which runs every 15 minutes from Paddington via Heathrow and Reading which creates a half hourly service from Heathrow to both Bletchley and Basingstoke, with 1tph running to Milton Keynes, 1tph running to Bedford, 1tph terminating at Basingstoke and 1tph running to Southampton/Bournemouth.

Likewise I can't see alternating trains on the relief lines formed of 9-car Crossrail, then minimalist GW formation. GW currently regularly send out 2-car sets with standing loads, that attitude will not be allowed to continue. The milksop joint operation will be subsumed into a Crossrail operation.

The Western Route Study suggested that the Reading-Paddington 2tph semi-fast paths should be transferred to Crossrail once demand justifies it. The Oxford-Reading stopper would then presumably be altered to run as a fast service between Reading and Paddington, or it would run via Heathrow.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I believe that Heathrow Express is an unregulated service negotiated separately without ORR involvement. I think Eurostar is the other operator in this position.

You are right but I was presuming that they (Heathrow Express) would have to apply to the ORR for rights post their existing contract expiry date as another contract on their existing terms would not be agreed.

Effectively they would have to become a normal OA Operator bidding to run on NR lines.

 

[Barn]

• Cost of electrification for a 2tph service (solved by GWML electrification scheme)
• Lack of platform capacity at Reading (solved by Reading station rebuild)

A cynical answer might be that Crossrail stayed away from Reading long enough to ensure that those costs were borne by other projects!

 

[JamesRowden]

A cynical answer might be that Crossrail stayed away from Reading long enough to ensure that those costs were borne by other projects!

If a business case could be produced without running through to Reading, it doesn't really matter.

 

[coppercapped]

Let us not think that the service plan currently proposed is set in stone for all time. I believe there will be significant changes after it is up and running. It's currently envisaged that Heathrow Express will carry on as if nothing has happened. Not only is that unsustainable but their 25 year contract to use the GWML expires in 2023, and no way will the DfT renew it in its current form where the high prices have caused such political dissatisfaction, let alone squandering of capacity on the Main lines. A deal will be done merging HEx and Crossrail provision in some form.

Likewise I can't see alternating trains on the relief lines formed of 9-car Crossrail, then minimalist GW formation. GW currently regularly send out 2-car sets with standing loads, that attitude will not be allowed to continue. The milksop joint operation will be subsumed into a Crossrail operation.

Of course the service pattern is not set in stone - none are. It is clear however from your post that you have not thought the issues through. When Crossrail is up and running there will be 4 trains per hour into and from Heathrow. Together with the HEx services this will make a total of 8 trains per hour serving Heathrow.

You state that HEx squanders capacity on the Mains, with the implication that if the HEx service is rolled into Crossrail as you suggest, all the trains will use the Reliefs from Stockley Junction inwards. Have you given any thought at all as to how these 8 trains per hour will be fitted in with the 4 per hour coming from Maidenhead, possibly also the 2 per hour West Drayton terminators and all the freight traffic which also uses the Reliefs as far as Acton Yard?

It is almost certain that some at least will still have to use the Mains and Stockley Junction is being rebuilt now to permit Up and Down trains on both the Mains and Reliefs to have grade separated connections to the Airport branch.

Are you also unaware of the impending electrification of the GW? This will permit the introduction of Class 387 and 365 trains meaning that the minimum train length will be 4 coaches, albeit of only 20m stock. Peak hour suburban trains on the LTV route are being planned to be a minimum of 8 coaches and west of Reading there is a programme of platform lengthening currently underway to make this possible.