The 'Technologically Unskilled' at TVM Only Stations

[RJ]

That's going to be a different conversation from Friday...

One wonders why all these people don't simply get an Oyster card.

I had the first customer ask what it would increase to in January. When I told him, he kissed his teeth in disgust and said of the price setters "they need their f****** heads bust open!" I've taken the beginning of January off as leave as I can do without the inital shock of it all.

Many feel they've had their fingers burnt using Oyster. They get one maximum fare, or one instance of TVMs taking their money and failing to load their purchase onto the card and that's it, they won't touch it again. Whether it's down to memory or establishing a successful validation, touching in at the beginning of a journey and touching out at the other end is something that is difficult for a lot of people - that is the reality. So policy is to charge people a maximum fare that does not count towards any daily cap. For something the powers that be want people to use, it's an odd way of dealing with human error.

Anyway, I digress - TVMs are not adequately designed to meet the needs of all who are able to use them. Until they are, TOCs should not require everybody to use them. After all, who else has the ability to make them more user friendly?

 

[island]

I come to a different conclusion, which is that passengers should attempt to acquaint themselves with newer technology where possible, and should be aware that not doing so may be disadvantageous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope you or your relatives never encounter the problem, but some people have serious memory problems. They may remember perfectly what happened 50 years ago, but are incapable of remembering what they were told 5 minutes ago. This can happen at all ages, but is more common in the elderly - it can sometimes be a symptom of early stages of Alzheimers & other medical conditions. They can still function adequately in basic situations, but they will not be able to remember PIN numbers, or learn how to use computers, ticket machines, etc., without assistance from another person.

Is that not something that should perhaps be classed as a disability?

(I've got an absolutely terrible short term memory anyway and long have had, I hate to contemplate it getting worse...)

Neil

 

[Clip]

True.



I know we have seen some strict interpretations of this, but do you genuinely believe that if a station has a card-only TVM, it is prohibited to travel from there if you possess only cash (e.g. you have a basic bank account) because to do so you would be passing an opportunity to pay?

*sigh* not again. However most 'basic bank accounts' now actually come with the MasterCard or Visa debit feature and also include contactless payment facility.

I cant be bothered to search every bank in this country but all the big players including Metro offer this facility on their basic bank accounts.

Carry on.

 

[dcsprior]

Although working at an outer London station, many people buy a Day Travelcard, thousands of people don't actually know that a Travelcard is called a Travelcard. As such, they struggle with TVMs as they don't know what they're looking for. Many have tried TVMs, given up and come to me. Then ask for any of the following things;

"That ticket that gets you to around London, on the tubes and buses"
"Day Saver", "Day Rover" or "Day Rider"
"A return to London"
"A return to London with tube/with Zone 1 and 2"
"A tube ticket"
"Bus and tube"
"A CapitalCard"
"A ticket"
"A return ticket"
"A railcard"
"Zone 1 and 6"
"All zones"
"Off Peak"
"Go and back"
"£8.90"

Some people just put £10 in the tray and look at me without saying anything.

This translates into a genuine difficulty when people go to use a TVM. Discretion is often shown when RPIs are made aware that the ticket office is shut. Which is good, because whilst a great deal of people can work with TVMs, the reality is that a great deal can't. The railway struggles with the art of teaching where tickets are concerned - so people who can't work TVMs shouldn't be punished for it IMO.

I think that's very understandable when different transport providers all have different terminology for what I'd generically call a "Day Ticket" - for instance Lothian Buses have "DaySaver", First Buses have "FirstDay" and TFL have "Travelcard" - the only thing they seem to have in common is a lack of spaces between words

Would a partial solution to people not knowing what they want be to allow a friendly member of staff in the ticket office to print something on ticket-sized (but not ticket-coloured) card with a 2D barcode which the customer can then scan at a TVM to purchase the ticket in future so save queuing up? This could then also allow customers to select tickets on a phone app, then pay and collect at the TVM. I think some tickets themselves now have 2D barcodes on, so perhaps this could also be scanned for repeat purchases. Even for passengers who do know exactly what they want, this could save time time negotiating what everyone seems to agree is a horrible UI.

 

[bb21]

Many feel they've had their fingers burnt using Oyster. They get one maximum fare, or one instance of TVMs taking their money and failing to load their purchase onto the card and that's it, they won't touch it again. Whether it's down to memory or establishing a successful validation, touching in at the beginning of a journey and touching out at the other end is something that is difficult for a lot of people - that is the reality. So policy is to charge people a maximum fare that does not count towards any daily cap. For something the powers that be want people to use, it's an odd way of dealing with human error.

That, I find, is quite disgusting simply put. What this shows is that there is no attempt at looking at a situation from a passenger's view whatsoever, only what is convenient for the fare-setter (TfL in this example). That to me screams arrogance of the fare-setter.

Why does it not count towards any daily cap at all? At the worst, it should count towards the maximum applicable daily cap (with any appropriate discount especially if off-peak) which could be something like an outboundary one such as a Watford or a Grays Travelcard. Considering that maximum journey charges frequently occur in pairs, those caps could very easily be reached (and breached as things currently stand). Does TfL consider it morally just to charge people more for a day's travel in excess of the amount charged for the most expensive applicable daily cap?

 

[LowLevel]

I come to a different conclusion, which is that passengers should attempt to acquaint themselves with newer technology where possible, and should be aware that not doing so may be disadvantageous.

Surely that is the tail wagging the dog. Passengers should simply accept purchasing from a machine (regardless of the fact that fares are quite often bewildering) and not a human because it's what the TOCs want, and still be potentially penalised?

I'm still very much of the opinion that technology should be there to assist trained staff, not provide an inadequate replacement.

The choice to use either should be provided, and I'm far better at identifying and selling appropriate tickets than any machine.

 

[jon0844]

My parents still run a successful consultancy business and are approaching their seventies. Both can and do use computers, but I'd argue that a lot of people of this age can learn new things, but still do so mostly by learning a series of steps.

I've worked in technology all my life, so if I got a new computer tomorrow with a totally different OS, or upgraded an existing OS to a new one with an all-new or heavily revised user interface, it wouldn't phase me. Knowing many common things would, or should, enable me to learn something very quickly.

If my mum got a new version of Windows tomorrow, she'd spend a long time getting on with it and almost certainly hate it and wish it hadn't changed.

So, when it comes to a TVM, the mere fact that there are so many variations makes it hard for me to believe that even a pensioner that is keen to learn new technology is just going to rock up and figure it out straight away.

I know this because they p**s me off, especially when it comes to doing things like finding certain tickets that aren't on the common ticket screens. Even drilling down stations on the A-Z list can be a mess with unresponsive (or over responsive) touchscreens, and they don't even work with the industry standard station codes! Now we have many TOCs publishing them, but - hey - why should you be able to enter a three digit code to find your station when you can just search for the correct name manually, and hope King's Cross is in as King's Cross. Or is it Kings Cross, or is it London Kin....?

Managing multiple tickets, railcard discounts, groupsave can all be a nightmare and if you do come to remember the process (why would you?) then what if you use a different machine next time with a different system entirely?

At best you get people that keep trying and eventually get what they want (or as close as!) but now you have a queue of angry people behind slagging off people for being so bloody clueless and slow, because they've memorised their sequence of taps that will work right up to a software update that shifts things around and suddenly stops them dead in their tracks.

Suffice to say, TVMs are a joke as they stand - and that's ignoring their inability to sell a lot of tickets.

I really wish ATOC would take the bull by the horns and sort this mess out once and for all. A nationwide, standardised, user interface designed by people that design modern applications that can be used by both novices and experts alike. Take cues from app designers, Apple, even Microsoft as it reinvents most of its apps and OS.

Let's not believe a TVM has only two options; to be easy to use by limiting options, or so advanced that it will be too difficult to just sell simple Travelcards and day returns to nearby or popular stations. You can easily do both, as well as giving guidance through the ticketing process, so people can discover what options they have without having to know before they start - and make changes/amendments throughout without having to start over.

(If ATOC is reading this and ever decides to see sense, please get in touch with me as I've worked with companies on usability testing and UI design and would be glad to offer my services for testing - and I wouldn't even charge for it!).

 

[drbdrb]

So, when it comes to a TVM, the mere fact that there are so many variations makes it hard for me to believe that even a pensioner that is keen to learn new technology is just going to rock up and figure it out straight away.

I parked in one of the Park & Ride car parks in Cambridge recently. I knew that they had introduced a £1 parking fee that you had to pay as well as buy a bus ticket.

The council had decided that rather than a simple pay & display, or man on the gate collecting the £1, they would go for a technological solution.

As you drove in, ANPR cameras photgraphed and recorded your car. You then had to put in some of the digits of your number plate for the machine to identify your car, display a photo of it, ask if had picked the correct one, and if so you to then pay the £1.

Now all straightforward you might think, and the council obviously thought so. But it was taking some people over five minutes to do that simple transaction. It was not helped that even if people had a free bus pass, they still had to pay the parking fee, so there were a large number of elderly customers being forced to use the technology.

The result being a 30 minute queue to pay the £1 (not an exaggeration, three buses at 10 minute intervals left whilst while I was queueing).

And what was really funny, was the council employed two people to 'police' the queue, rather than employ people to collect the parking fee.

 

[jon0844]

Welwyn Hatfield also brought in car parking with ANPR a couple of years back. Many people find that their car can't be found because the camera didn't read their plate properly, and the touch screen is so poor (as in the angle you look at the display means you instinctively press in the wrong place) that you have all sorts of issues and mistakes being made.

Add in the fact that there were just two machines in one car park (and only on one floor) and the queues were crazy when I stupidly opted to park there last Christmas. I'd agree that it would have been a good 30 minutes to pay and get out.

Now you can also pay online up to midnight that day, but when I tried on my smartphone the site didn't work on a mobile properly and I didn't fancy going home to see if it might work properly on a desktop. And some car park operators charge you more for paying via the web! Possibly only 10 or 20p, but really?

Once again technology can be a good thing, but the designers just haven't got a clue. And where's the testing?

 

[drbdrb]

you can also pay online up to midnight that day, but when I tried on my smartphone the site didn't work on a mobile properly

Exactly the same in Cambridge. You were presented with a mobile friendly page to start, but then like too many mobile websites, when you put in any details were then pushed onto the normal, mobile unfriendly pages. And not helped by very poor mobile coverage, so pages crashing out part way through.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Once again technology can be a good thing, but the designers just haven't got a clue. And where's the testing?

These ANPR machines seem to have become popular with Councils. It's not helped that there are at least two types. One type just asks for the first three characters of your plate and shows you a picture where you have to ID your car if there's a duplicate. Duplicates are likely because of the regional based system of number platers. The other asks for the full 7 characters. Initially it wasn't helped by the use of an ABCD keyboard as opposed to a QWERTY one, but it was discovered that there is a button to flip between the two. After a few uses, you get used to the responsiveness or otherwise of the touch screen.

But taking up someone's suggestion about bar codes, why not have a bar code number plate reader? So you are issued with a key fob or whatever containing your car numberplate which you scan. Particularly in a station car park, time is of the essence for regular commuters. Even leisure travellers may have limited time to catch a pre-booked train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Commuters in station car parks will have season tickets anyway.

 

[Hadders]

Bedford Railway station uses an ANPR system. Presumably no need for parking wardens to come round issuing tickets to people who overstay. If you've not been clocked by the cameras as leaving before your time's up there'll be a parking penalty charge in the post.

Quite scary really!

 

[Starmill]

One of my pleasures this Christmas has been watching the utter commitment by NW and others on this thread to the blinding light of a shiny new digital future, one in which everything anyone ever needs in life is provided by Logica, Atos, Steria or one of the other few preferred software suppliers to government. A commitment so familiar in previous visions of a bright new technological future in which 'the old ways' are swept away.

I've enjoyed the entertainment as much as re-reading Orwell, Huxley or Zamyatin or of the real-world revolutions which informed them (and some which have occurred subsequently). Entertainment arising from opinion which in itself has utterly disregarded past attempts to achieve the imposition of similar technological conformity.

Thanks for the entertainment.

I take it this was the Christmas in which your age finally caught up with you, then, when you realised the only other gift you would be receiving was socks?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bedford Railway station uses an ANPR system. Presumably no need for parking wardens to come round issuing tickets to people who overstay. If you've not been clocked by the cameras as leaving before your time's up there'll be a parking penalty charge in the post.

Quite scary really!

The advantage of this is that you can do pay on departure without the need for barriers (thus without the need for staff), which means there is no need for anyone to ever be fined for overstay. Just pay the amount due before you leave. A few of the tourist car parks at the Lake District do this. You can also pre-pay if you want.

Neil

 

[Hadders]

The advantage of this is that you can do pay on departure without the need for barriers (thus without the need for staff), which means there is no need for anyone to ever be fined for overstay. Just pay the amount due before you leave. A few of the tourist car parks at the Lake District do this. You can also pre-pay if you want.

I don't think this is the case at Bedford. I've only used it once but you had to pay upon arrival in a similar way to a pay and display (except there's nothing to display). The display showed photos of all the car registration numbers that had entered within the last 15 minutes and you had to select your number plate and pay.

It's easy at a station as there's effectively only one tariff but I do wonder what would happen if you arrived back after your expiry time. IIRC I was pretty close when I used it having got one of the last trains from St Pancras (I know they run all night but you know what I mean!)

It certainly had a 'big brother' feel to it. It's getting difficult to be anonymous these days - car movements tracked, rail operators wanting us to use smart tickets, mobile phones logging your every move....

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The display showed photos of all the car registration numbers that had entered within the last 15 minutes and you had to select your number plate and pay.

That's another way of doing it. Locally the Pay and Display car parks have converted to pay on departure.

Either way, the ability to drop someone off for a brief errand, stay in the car and then leave without paying is no longer possible unless you can exploit the grace periods which have to exist for those who enter the car park and then leave because no spaces are available.

It's getting difficult to be anonymous these days - car movements tracked, rail operators wanting us to use smart tickets, mobile phones logging your every move.... .

It might be hoped that the car parking records are securely deleted immediately after payment. Have there been any challenges to ensure that is the case?

 

[Hadders]

It might be hoped that the car parking records are securely deleted immediately after payment. Have there been any challenges to ensure that is the case?

Authorities have a habit of losing our data but I somehow suspect this is the sort of data they won't lose!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Either way, the ability to drop someone off for a brief errand, stay in the car and then leave without paying is no longer possible unless you can exploit the grace periods which have to exist for those who enter the car park and then leave because no spaces are available.

Are there no "15 minutes on Railway business only" spaces? There usually are.

Neil