The Sunday Times: 'Ironing board' seats

[Hadders]

Wouldn't a better idea be to divide them along subclass lines. Since the complaints seem to suggest the seating and layout is more based around being a 'metro' type service couldn't they leave the 700/0s (8-car) as they are since they'll mainly be operating the shorter more 'metro' and stopping services anyway from what I can gather. They could then upgrade the seating and layout on the 700/1s (12-car) since they'll be mostly operating the faster and longer distance services, have 4 more coaches anyway and although I don't know for sure (someone will probably tell me) might not be quite as crowded as the shorter distance stoppers anyway.

Cambridge to Brighton is hardly a metro type service.

 

[AM9]

Cambridge to Brighton is hardly a metro type service.

That's correct, it is a double-ended outer suburban route, Cambridge to the core stations and from there to Brighton.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

This Ryanair-like approach of cutting corners ahead of comfort, being fashionable in the last decade, also spreading to trains...

It worries me in the future that we may one day see Class 700 type trains with ironing board seats operating on the ICEC between Kings Cross & Edinburgh as what is now happening with the Thameslink programme may be a sign of what's to come!

Also there won't be any toilets available on the new Crossrail trains and FirstGroup's new open access East Coast rival service will operate on a budget model with no first class.

I predict Class 700 basic style trains will be running long distance both on the ICEC & ICWC lines while HS2 itself likely will have superior built trains with high quality on-board services as a luxury option. Then we would choose either to travel budget or luxury on the same line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I predict Class 700 basic style trains will be running long distance both on the ICEC & ICWC lines while HS2 itself likely will have superior built trains with high quality on-board services as a luxury option. Then we would choose either to travel budget or luxury on the same line.

I wouldn't expect that, I'd expect something more like the likes of the Class 350, which is a decent enough train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't a better idea be to divide them along subclass lines. Since the complaints seem to suggest the seating and layout is more based around being a 'metro' type service couldn't they leave the 700/0s (8-car) as they are since they'll mainly be operating the shorter more 'metro' and stopping services anyway from what I can gather. They could then upgrade the seating and layout on the 700/1s (12-car) since they'll be mostly operating the faster and longer distance services, have 4 more coaches anyway and although I don't know for sure (someone will probably tell me) might not be quite as crowded as the shorter distance stoppers anyway.

That probably makes a lot of sense. Or even change the 8-car sets to an S-stock style layout with a lot of longitudinal seating, then fit a 350/1 style layout to the 12-car sets, with 2+2 seating with armrests and better legroom. And dump the 1st, it isn't really needed.

 

[jon0844]

This Ryanair-like approach of cutting corners ahead of comfort, being fashionable in the last decade, also spreading to trains...

It worries me in the future that we may one day see Class 700 type trains with ironing board seats operating on the ICEC between Kings Cross & Edinburgh as what is now happening with the Thameslink programme may be a sign of what's to come!

Also there won't be any toilets available on the new Crossrail trains and FirstGroup's new open access East Coast rival service will operate on a budget model with no first class.

I predict Class 700 basic style trains will be running long distance both on the ICEC & ICWC lines while HS2 itself likely will have superior built trains with high quality on-board services as a luxury option. Then we would choose either to travel budget or luxury on the same line.

If we don't build new lines and increase capacity to keep up (assuming post Brexit growth doesn't reverse and all the problems go away) then you may have a point that newer trains will become more and more sparse to make room.

It proves just how important HS2, HS3 and beyond will be. Perhaps with new lines over the next 20-30 years, we can improve the seating arrangements and features of current services - which only came about because things were breaking at the seams. The 700s ARE needed right now.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The 700s ARE needed right now.

A large expansion sheme like the Thameslink programme would of course require a large fleet of new trains preferably all in the same type for consistency and maintenance. The Desiro City would be attractive for its "metro-budget" layout and cost-effective to have as many basic designed trains over quality built ones.

I wouldn't object if Thameslink only ran as far for example from Luton & Stevenage in the North to Gatwick and Maidstone in the South then the bare-bones class 700 may be just about OK but the reality is these trains actually run from Brighton/Eastbourne/Littlehampton to as far to Bedford/Kings Lynn which is appalling and incomprehensible.

It is inappropriate that metro trains are being used for intercity/long distance, this could set a precedent giving the DfT bosses ideas that class 444s may eventually get replaced by basic metro trains on the SW mainline all the way to the Dorset coast.

Riding a battered old class 150 from Portsmouth to Cardiff with FGW was bad enough...

It is a shame something more suitable like Desiro 444 or Electrostar wasn't specified for Thameslink, in fact Thameslink did have Electrostars previously but to get rid to make way for the 700s. The Stansted Express has more comfortable Electrostars running a shorter distance than a Thameslink Brighton-Bedford service!

 

[lordbusiness]

Agreed that a lot of newer seats are 'basic and that some TOC's seem to be somewhat unconcerned about passenger comfort. Having experienced a GN 387 CBG-Ely was bad enough.
To me, the root cause of all this is:
1. The country is bursting at the seams and demand for the train is increasing in most areas. The industry is suffering the same problem as the NHS, roads and other public bodies: too much demand.
2. In commuter land, people are travelling further to work. The difference between metro, outer suburban commuter and long distance is becoming blurred. There will never be a train able to do all three and having three train types is not practicable.
3. People want seats, however there is finite number of seats you can cram on a train. Passenger expectations do not take into account realities. There is a significant number of people that think having a train ticket means they are some sort of VIP. We would all like to be travelling everywhere in clean modern trains with loads of seats, catering and relaxing in leather upholstered reclining seats- it ain't gonna happen folks.Those days are long gone.
4. The industry is no good at managing people's expectations. It promises lots but often can't deliver. The RDG in particular promises lots and does not fight the industry's corner very well.

Solution?

 

[bramling]

Agreed that a lot of newer seats are 'basic and that some TOC's seem to be somewhat unconcerned about passenger comfort. Having experienced a GN 387 CBG-Ely was bad enough.
To me, the root cause of all this is:
1. The country is bursting at the seams and demand for the train is increasing in most areas. The industry is suffering the same problem as the NHS, roads and other public bodies: too much demand.
2. In commuter land, people are travelling further to work. The difference between metro, outer suburban commuter and long distance is becoming blurred. There will never be a train able to do all three and having three train types is not practicable.
3. People want seats, however there is finite number of seats you can cram on a train. Passenger expectations do not take into account realities. There is a significant number of people that think having a train ticket means they are some sort of VIP. We would all like to be travelling everywhere in clean modern trains with loads of seats, catering and relaxing in leather upholstered reclining seats- it ain't gonna happen folks.Those days are long gone.
4. The industry is no good at managing people's expectations. It promises lots but often can't deliver. The RDG in particular promises lots and does not fight the industry's corner very well.

Solution?

Brexit?

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed that a lot of newer seats are 'basic and that some TOC's seem to be somewhat unconcerned about passenger comfort. Having experienced a GN 387 CBG-Ely was bad enough.
To me, the root cause of all this is:
1. The country is bursting at the seams and demand for the train is increasing in most areas. The industry is suffering the same problem as the NHS, roads and other public bodies: too much demand.
2. In commuter land, people are travelling further to work. The difference between metro, outer suburban commuter and long distance is becoming blurred. There will never be a train able to do all three and having three train types is not practicable.
3. People want seats, however there is finite number of seats you can cram on a train. Passenger expectations do not take into account realities. There is a significant number of people that think having a train ticket means they are some sort of VIP. We would all like to be travelling everywhere in clean modern trains with loads of seats, catering and relaxing in leather upholstered reclining seats- it ain't gonna happen folks.Those days are long gone.
4. The industry is no good at managing people's expectations. It promises lots but often can't deliver. The RDG in particular promises lots and does not fight the industry's corner very well.

Solution?

I never did get obsession with leather seats.

There seems to be an element of the industry willingly shooting itself in foot in all of this, particularly where it replaces perfectly good seats that don't need to be replaced.

A decent bit of padding is not the moon on a stick.

 

[Rail Blues]

According to Disabled world, 1.9% of the population are in a wheelchair
https://www.disabled-world.com/disability/statistics/wheelchair-stats.php
Based on figures from the Crohns and Colitis UK Web Site,
0.04% of the population have Crohns or Ulcerative Colitis. That is a lot smaller than wheelchair users but that only represents two long term conditions where loo access is more critical at sudden moments. Others exist too.

One might say go to the loo before boarding but you may not have needed the loo then.

What if ones colostomy bag suddenly starts coming away and leaking on a train without a a loo. This could happen elsewhere in public too but you may be able to find a shop or other earbloshment nearby that can help. Not so on a railway line where the stations either have no loos or they are closed because no staff are manning the station at that time.

I have IBS which is more common, but thankfully less severe and nowhere near as debilitating as Colitis, nevertheless there's been occasions where I've been on a train where the need to go has been instant and urgent. I used to get LU A stock from Uxbridge to central London and lived in constant fear of soiling myself on the train.

 

[AM9]

Brexit?

Although it's an OT suggestion but it didn't have any emoticon as in itself,it's been suggested and it's not a stupid idea that might relieve overcrowding on all trains. Hard no-compromise exit from the EU will create less demand for travel as there'll be less productive work and less money to spend on rail (or any) travel. The demand for better seating will come from the few privileged 'entrepreneurs' who will get rich in the chaos of post EU decline - oh and of course comfortable final-salary pensioners. Trains into London can be like Heathrow Express, each 12-car set having 525 seats with the kind of luxury that some think they deserve. Each train will occupy a full path stopping only at stations where there were wealthy passengers, (so St Albans will be OK), - everybody else will only need to get to their local job centre.
Sorted!

 

[Downthelane]

The country were misled into voting for generational austerity in June 2016. If you stand for what Brexit proposed then it has to have consequences somewhere. So hard train seats and a lack of nurses to make your final days bearable are two such consequences that I suspect people will one day look back and regret.

 

[TUC]

Why doesn't the DfT get out of over-specifying? By all means have minimum standards but they always get it wrong compared to operators who know their customers.

 

[Prestige15]

They have made it to tha BBC

 

[AM9]

They have made it to tha BBC

Yes, about 5 days ago.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

This is happening at a time when many bus companies are introducing more comfortable leather seats.

Out of interest, does anybody know how hard the seats are going to be on the new Merseyrail Electric trains? They are certainly going to be much narrower than those on the refurbished 507/508s.

 

[Hadders]

This is happening at a time when many bus companies are introducing more comfortable leather seats.

Quite. Rail services are important in ‘commuter land’ and I suspect many MPs won’t relish correspondence on this, given many are in marginal seats.

Didn’t c2c introduce a new timetable a couple of years back that had to be hastily amended (basically out back to how it used to be) following adverse passenger reaction. It wouldn’t surprise me if something similar happens on GN if/when it all falls over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is happening at a time when many bus companies are introducing more comfortable leather seats.

Out of interest, does anybody know how hard the seats are going to be on the new Merseyrail Electric trains? They are certainly going to be much narrower than those on the refurbished 507/508s.

If they're the standard Stadler FLIRT seats (they look like them) they are hard but not excessively so. Probably not much different from what is there at the moment.

 

[Hadders]

But the pressure can make sure we never have another train with such an unsuitable interior.

We were told seat back tables were not possible. Strange that they’re now being fitted. If we’d all put up with what we were given this wouldn’t have happened.

 

[Prestige15]

Yes, about 5 days ago.

I've only just seen this today. Busy week you see

 

[AM9]

But the pressure can make sure we never have another train with such an unsuitable interior.

I doubt it as the next order will be on a different franchise. Wait for the complaints about the Statler and CAF seats, particularly the GA ones. It will be over 30 years before the class 700s are replaced.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I’m confused, if it’s a DFT spec, is this one of those things that would have been fixed by nationalisation?

HMG had very little to do with the nitty gritty of specifying trains for BR.

 

[cjmillsnun]

They certainly look horrible (just like how 350/1 seats do), but I don't find them any 'worse' than a Fainsa seat. Slightly more padding too on the cushion.

There is nothing wrong with the Grammar seat used on 350/1s I've used an identical seat (class 444) and find them reasonably comfortable and they don't look too bad (though not as comfortable as the 442 with their original seats)

 

[class387]

There is nothing wrong with the Grammar seat used on 350/1s I've used an identical seat (class 444) and find them reasonably comfortable and they don't look too bad (though not as comfortable as the 442 with their original seats)

I was referencing how threadbare they look due to having not ever being refurbished. The seat itself is one of my favourite suburban seats and is very comfortable.

 

[w1bbl3]

It will be over 30 years before the class 700s are replaced.

The issue surely isn't that trains are bad per se but that interior and in particular the level of seat padding is inappropriate which seems to be common theme across the current DfT specified trains now entering service. It is as the specification team haven't seen or used a train before.

Thankfully the interior won't be a 30 year design item it will be 10 to 15 years at the most before replacement is due, should there be a will and money found this could of course be sorted earlier as it apparently going to happen on GWR 800's and as had happened with retro tables on the 700's.

 

[InOban]

HMG had very little to do with the nitty gritty of specifying trains for BR.

Yes and no. HMG forced BR to build everything down to a price. Cheap, unreliable kit on trains, cheapest possible OHLE etc.

 

[InOban]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...cientific-approach-to-train-seat-comfort.html

UK: The Rail Safety & Standards Board has called for a more scientific approach to measuring train seat comfort, with the aim of developing specifications which manufacturers could use alongside requirements for crashworthiness and fire safety. This would take into account factors including shape, cushioning, material choice, lumbar support, vibration, legroom and the length of the journey.

‘There simply aren’t any reliable industry-approved measures to quantify passenger train seat comfort’...

They were already on the case, they claim.

 

[Raul_Duke]

HMG had very little to do with the nitty gritty of specifying trains for BR.

So they’d have let BR spend the extra £8 per seat then......?

 

[cjmillsnun]

So they’d have let BR spend the extra £8 per seat then......?

Based on the quality of the seats in a 442 as supplied, yes.