The Sun: No-strike plan for transport workers

[A-driver]

At the end of the day many people are selfish and will put themselves first.

Quite rightly so-no problem with people putting themselves first, in these cases it's not really selfish. But they are only doing what the union are doing in looking out for themselves before looking at the impact of their actions on others. Selfishness isn't always a bad thing in my opinion.

 

[A-driver]

From a dispassionately analytical point of view, I've always thought that non-striking agreements are have the potential to be mutually beneficial. The firm gets increased stability and probably a more flexible labour force and the workforce get fixed additional concessions in exchange from them rather than whatever they might get by threatening to strike. The union then becomes a vehicle for constructive dialogue without the coarse threat of strikes and risk of the whole 'irresponsible' backlash.

I think a large problem with that is that most strikes nowadays (or proposed industrial action) is due to the very fact that management are refusing to enter into any meaningful dialogue. I my experience railway management are very quick to brush things under the carpet and ignore things hoping they will go away. The unions ask for meetings to discuss problems as they arise-be it that staff are unhappy with the dispatch arrangements at a particular location and feel its unsafe or be it that the union don't feel a new policy is fair. Management have a habit of either cancelling meetings at the last minute or doing 'nodding head' meetings where they basically humour the union by nodding along but not actually agreeing to do anything to address the issues. A collection of these will lead to further action being taken. Whilst I can see your point that a no strike deal is win win for everyone, it only works if both sides stick to it. I don't think it overly cynical to use past experience and say that if a no strike deal was set up management would win and workers would suffer hugely.

As I said before, strikes are rarely about pay-they are a last resort when all other methods of communicating and addressing issues have failed.

 

[SS4]

I think a large problem with that is that most strikes nowadays (or proposed industrial action) is due to the very fact that management are refusing to enter into any meaningful dialogue. I my experience railway management are very quick to brush things under the carpet and ignore things hoping they will go away. The unions ask for meetings to discuss problems as they arise-be it that staff are unhappy with the dispatch arrangements at a particular location and feel its unsafe or be it that the union don't feel a new policy is fair. Management have a habit of either cancelling meetings at the last minute or doing 'nodding head' meetings where they basically humour the union by nodding along but not actually agreeing to do anything to address the issues. A collection of these will lead to further action being taken. Whilst I can see your point that a no strike deal is win win for everyone, it only works if both sides stick to it. I don't think it overly cynical to use past experience and say that if a no strike deal was set up management would win and workers would suffer hugely.

As I said before, strikes are rarely about pay-they are a last resort when all other methods of communicating and addressing issues have failed.

Plus of course there is industrial action short of a strike which never gets reported. Management need not pay attention because they know, for the most part, they can use their friends in government and in the press to demonise the Union.

 

[PHILIPE]

At the end of the day, the people who suffer are those not concerned in any dispute. Joe Public who hoild be protected.

 

[A-driver]

At the end of the day, the people who suffer are those not concerned in any dispute. Joe Public who hoild be protected.

That is why strikes are always a last resort. Work to rule is generally more favourable-it still affects management but has less impact on the public-it usually ends up just costing the company more as they have to find other ways of getting work that staff usually do for free done.

 

[SS4]

At the end of the day, the people who suffer are those not concerned in any dispute. Joe Public who hoild be protected.

Yet they blame the employees instead of management regardless of the situation. Probably due to a mixture of misinformation, omissions and employees being on the front line as it were.

 

[Sidious]

I support the right to withdraw labour as part of an organised strike as a last resort in an industrial dispute. Before it gets to that stage both sides should be bound into an arbitration process and a quorum of 50%+1 of the unions membership should vote in the ballot.

I am employed in a line of work where there is no right to strike with disputes being resolved through arbitration. It has seen inequitable decisions forced upon my terms and conditions with no right of recourse, and as a result a collapse in morale and a withdrawal of goodwill.

 

[jopsuk]

Sidious: I'm pretty sure that means you're either a copper or prison officer? Pretty sure those are the only unionised professions with a legal ban on strikes?
(armed forces are a different matter)

 

[Cherry_Picker]

If they did ban striking and a TOC had 300 Guards or 300 drivers on their payroll and all 300 of them walked out for a day of action what could the TOC realistically do them? Can't sack them as their network wouldn't move for months while they recruited and trained replacements.

http://youtu.be/paF5tEaqcVQ

Ronald Reagan did it.

 

[Sidious]

Sidious: I'm pretty sure that means you're either a copper

You must be a detective!

 

[Bald Rick]

Views from the management (although not LU).

My dealings with the unions, mostly RMT, were pretty cordial. However it took the best part of 18 months to build a position of trust between us - which frankly only came about because I stuck to my guns and honoured my promises. Presumably for reasons of history trust had been hard to come by.

Generally, the reps I dealt with fell into two categories:

1) those genuine guys (and they are usually blokes) who see it as their role to improve the lot of their colleagues. Generally, these guys are pretty smart.

2) those who see it as a way of getting some easy hours on overtime (at best) or who have been in trouble, and see being a rep as making them 'untouchable' (at worst). Generally these guys aren't that smart, and have a tendency to be in it for themelves rather than their colleagues, and in some cases are forceful / aggressive to the point of bullying.

In my experience there was a 70/30 split in favour of the former, although the balance shifted the other way the higher up the union you go.


It is pretty difficult to maintain composure and not get riled in a formal meeting when someone in the second catgeory is ranting at you about something, indeed anything. Whereas it is pretty easy to resolve the same problem when it is presented in a decent manner. Without doubt, my worst experiences in any meetings (ever) have been with full time reps who were threatening, aggressive and in some cases flouting agreed standards of conduct - for example secretly recording meetings. (I would love to have known what that rep would have done if the boot was on the other foot there).

So my homily of all this is that it takes two to tango. Start by trusting the other 'side' and with time they will trust you. This applies equally to 'management' and 'staff' sides (although why we have sides is beyond me, we all work in the same company), and at whatever level of the company / union you find yourself. And if you have the opportunity to vote for a rep, vote for one who will genuinely represent you, and not the one who shouts the loudest.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is why strikes are always a last resort. Work to rule is generally more favourable-it still affects management but has less impact on the public-it usually ends up just costing the company more as they have to find other ways of getting work that staff usually do for free done.

On the other side of the coin, the management in a dispute have also been known to apply their own "final sanction" in a dispute, in the form of a "lock-out". I can recall a recent case in 2012 where this occurred, being the dispute at Mayer-Meinhof Packaging in Bootle, Merseyside.

 

[thelem]

As much as I support trade unions, and support workers rights, Bob Crow really does them no favours at all with his rants and exaggerations.

It says something that he is being done for ranting, on a forum that is mostly populated by the type of people he is meant to represent. He knows the press will choose short quotes and will have picked his words very carefully. He knows if he mentions people like hitler then it'll make a bigger story.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

I support the right to withdraw labour as part of an organised strike as a last resort in an industrial dispute. Before it gets to that stage both sides should be bound into an arbitration process and a quorum of 50%+1 of the unions membership should vote in the ballot.

I am employed in a line of work where there is no right to strike with disputes being resolved through arbitration. It has seen inequitable decisions forced upon my terms and conditions with no right of recourse, and as a result a collapse in morale and a withdrawal of goodwill.

Maybe we should also apply the same principle to politicians such as Boris who quickly seize on the turnout when they themselves are elected by the minority as people haven't voted.

In my experience are lot of these disputes are as a result of certain members of management trying to make a name for themselves and as such they aren't going to be interested in arbitration. One managing director prior to a strike declared that he was 'looking forward to it', clearly not the sign of a man prepared to find a resolution

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It says something that he is being done for ranting, on a forum that is mostly populated by the type of people he is meant to represent. He knows the press will choose short quotes and will have picked his words very carefully. He knows if he mentions people like Hitler then it'll make a bigger story.

Perhaps the memory of the Nazi concentration camps as part of Hitler's final solution to his perceived "Jewish problem" has now faded to such an extent that many young people today would not attach the same strength of feeling as their parents or grandparents would have.

Strange that Mr Crow does never seem to make reference to what happened in the Stalin leadership days of the 1930's in the then USSR. Anyone with Ukrainian history in their family would be aware of what occurred there with the Soviet state-sponsored starvation in the Ukraine, causing the death of a very large number of that people,

 

[The Ham]

Should stike action be harder to undertake? Perhaps a little

Should that mean the abolition of Unions or breaking them into smaller bodies? Almost certianly not

Should the default position from both sides be that they have the best intrest of the company that they work for for their mutual benifit? definatly, including that companies should respect the benefits (knowledge, experiance, etc.) that their staff bring to the company.

I work for a private company where, given the relationship between the staff and management, I would almost never dream of joing a union even if there were one that I could join.

Conversly someone I know works for a private company where management try to get away with doing only what they need to do to stay within the law. As basicly the view of management is that they can easily employ and train other staff so why bother keeping those they've got, even though it can take over a year for them to train staff to a level where they can work in certain departments with all the hidden costs associate with training and recurting. In which case if there was a union it would make life better for their staff and they would proberbly find that they retained a lot more people as a lot of people leave as soon as that is a viable option.

 

[moggie]

Oh the sheer Irony of it all! Where will these union bashing halfwits be tomorrow? Busy at their desks all day? Anybody would think they're putting up a smokescreen to hide their skiving tomorrow. Union members would be told to take annual leave and wouldn't have the whole shebang paid for by others!

 

[jimm]

The article mentioned public sector transport staff. I may be missing something, but doesn't that mean East Coast is the only TOC affected? I'm not convinced London bus services fall under the public sector umbrella either - as I understand it, private sector companies operate under public regulation - operating staff are not employed in the public sector. (In the rest of the country, bus services are all private sector even if local authorities subsidise some routes.)

This will come as news to the citizens of places including Blackpool, Edinburgh, Reading, Cardiff and Nottingham, to name but a few, where the bus operators are still 100 per cent or majority-owned by the councils.

You shouldn't go to the press mentioning Hitler, Pop Pot and Mussolini when asked for a quote - that's fairly straightforward (unless you want to enter a battle of hysteria).

TBH I'm surprised that the Tories haven't clamped down on Unions more in their three years of "power" - I'm sure in 2010 most of us would have expected some kind of legislation by now from them

Perhaps because the Tories aren't in power on their own and I can't see the Lib Dems indulging them over more union-bashing - the law allowing trade unions to be formed in this country was passed by a Liberal government in the 19th century.

From a dispassionately analytical point of view, I've always thought that non-striking agreements are have the potential to be mutually beneficial. The firm gets increased stability and probably a more flexible labour force and the workforce get fixed additional concessions in exchange from them rather than whatever they might get by threatening to strike. The union then becomes a vehicle for constructive dialogue without the coarse threat of strikes and risk of the whole 'irresponsible' backlash.

Clearly you have never had to deal with a management where the bottom line is the bottom line and all other considerations go out of the window when it comes to dealing with the workforce, along with customers, suppliers and anyone else seen as getting in the way of this aim. Concession is not a word in the vocabulary of those running such outfits.

 

[reb0118]

Strange that Mr Crow does never seem to make reference to what happened in the Stalin leadership days of the 1930's in the then USSR. Anyone with Ukrainian history in their family would be aware of what occurred there with the Soviet state-sponsored starvation in the Ukraine, causing the death of a very large number of that people,

"This is so not true! Everyone knows that the famine was due to kulaks (rich peasants with bourgeoisie pretensions) hoarding & stealing produce from the land. This produce fairly redistributed under the Stalinist system would have fed the population both town & country. However white saboteurs wrecked the plans. No blame can be laid at Uncle Joe's door ~ he was our ally during the war & helped us to defeat fascism. Please note too that no bourgeois Polish officers were murdered at Katyn. This was a nazi fabrication to try to discredit the alliance. "

Ok, we all know that statement above is guff but there was a very real sentiment both during & after the war not to criticize the soviets even though in my opinion they were worse than the fascists, and the fascists were pretty terrible too!

This don't bash the soviets sentiment has remained in some labour & union quarters to this day. I don't think labour relations in the soviet empire were a bed of roses ~ I wonder what would happen to stikers over there? NVKD/KGB anyone?

 

[Sidious]

Maybe we should also apply the same principle to politicians such as Boris who quickly seize on the turnout when they themselves are elected by the minority as people haven't voted.

I couldn't agree more. The recent crime commissioner elections were an absolute sham for this very reason.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This "don't bash the Soviets" sentiment has remained in some Labour & union quarters to this day. I don't think labour relations in the Soviet empire were a bed of roses ~ I wonder what would happen to strikers over there? NVKD/KGB anyone?

When I remember the Peter Sellers portrayal of Fred Kite, the communist shop steward in the film "I'm All Right, Jack", with his "bed of roses" idealistic views on the USSR (despite never actually been there), I am often reminded of Comrade Crow and wonder if the actual reality of past Soviet history is viewed by him in the same "wonderful" light as that of Fred Kite....:roll:.

Yes, at the age of 68, I am old enough to have seen this film, made in 1960, at the pictures, not just one who has seen the film on tape or dvd...

 

[jon0844]

Bob Crow is an unashamed communist, and must believe that we could have a society where money is shared equally and fairly.

Of course, in a capitalist society we can all see those who make loads of money (and then be jealous and moan), whereas in a communist society there are still the same people making loads of money, but they keep the fact hidden from those who are kept down.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps because the Tories aren't in power on their own and I can't see the Lib Dems indulging them over more union-bashing - the law allowing trade unions to be formed in this country was passed by a Liberal government in the 19th century

True, though they have got through some other "red blood" Tory measures (cutting tax for the richest earners, cutting benefits for the poorest - the kind of things that I'd hoped the Liberals wouldn't have let them get away with)

 

[northwichcat]

This will come as news to the citizens of places including Blackpool, Edinburgh, Reading, Cardiff and Nottingham, to name but a few, where the bus operators are still 100 per cent or majority-owned by the councils.

There's 10 which are 100% owned by local authorities according to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_bus_companies

Also, while they seem to being phased out some councils who don't operate their own bus services generally purchased some yellow school buses and own and operate them.

 

[mrmatt]

I have no problem with striking if it is truly a last resort (i.e. been through ACAS) AND (and this is the bit I think should be law for all strike action) it can only be taken if 50% + 1 of those balloted vote yes. Not 50% of those who voted, but 50% of those who were entitled to.

 

[SS4]

I have no problem with striking if it is truly a last resort (i.e. been through ACAS) AND (and this is the bit I think should be law for all strike action) it can only be taken if 50% + 1 of those balloted vote yes. Not 50% of those who voted, but 50% of those who were entitled to.

Let's hold government to the same standard then! It's some cheek after claiming the PCC elections were legitimate on a ~10% turnout.

Industrial Action and Strike should be a majority of who's voted. Perhaps we could put members into "constituencies" and give some more power than others

 

[jon0844]

That means compulsory voting, which I am not actually against in principle.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Strange that Mr Crow does never seem to make reference to what happened in the Stalin leadership days of the 1930's in the then USSR. Anyone with Ukrainian history in their family would be aware of what occurred there with the Soviet state-sponsored starvation in the Ukraine, causing the death of a very large number of that people,

The double standards the left adopted towards the communist bloc in the 50's, 60's and 70's are still alive and well today only this time it is with big business and it's attitudes towards China. Business will cheerily take advantage of the cheap labour provided by a "willing" workforce practically ignoring the 8000 (official) executions carried out each year by the authorities there and blithely forgetting all about their crowd dispersal poilcy of running over people with tanks.
One sometimes thinks that maybe the Sun (and it's owner) would prefer Chinese style industrial relations in this country.

Crow often falls victim to the old line that our enemies' enemies must be our friends without reference to the fact that Stalin is probably the biggest mass murderer the world has ever encountered who redefined communism into another form of fascism.

Степан Бандера was always going to be fighting a losing battle. Ukraine was first caught between Stalin and Hitler and after the war the insurgent army was battling against the Soviet Army(wartime allies of Britain) and the Poles(why Britain entered the war in the first place), making it highly unlikely they would gain any support from the West. Mind you that 'support' didn't do Dubček any good.

Anyhow, why do we never get to hear how much Sun "journalists" earn ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Strange that Mr Crow does never seem to make reference to what happened in the Stalin leadership days of the 1930's in the then USSR. Anyone with Ukrainian history in their family would be aware of what occurred there with the Soviet state-sponsored starvation in the Ukraine, causing the death of a very large number of that people,

Despite his horrendous misjudgment of Hitler almost certainly saving Western Europe in WW2, Stalin was a deranged psychopath, one of the most vile and twisted individuals ever to inhabit this planet. Of course let's not forget the millions killed in his own country too - including (but not limited to): people who dared utter that their bus was late, people who stole even a grain of harvested crops, and the people he commissioned to do a census, whose work led them to discover they were about 20,000,000 people down...

One very stark saying my History teacher said always sticks with me - if you existed in pre-WW2 Nazi Germany your life (so long as you weren't a Jew) wasn't actually unbearable; however if you were anybody in Stalinist Russia at any point your life was an intolerable hell.

 

[johnnychips]

One very stark saying my History teacher said always sticks with me - if you existed in Nazi Germany your life (so long as you weren't a Jew) wasn't actually unbearable.

Well, until you volunteered, got conscripted and fought, got killed, captured or starved on the Steppes.

Both Stalin and Hitler were rather horrible. But it's 2013 now, and the thread seems to have drifted.