The state of ITSO ticketing

[bicbasher]

So if I decide to use ITSO in the future on my local journey from Forest Hill, I'd need Southern's The Key and whatever Southeastern brand theirs between London Bridge and Charing Cross?

Think I'll stick to the integrated Oyster card scheme all the same which I suspect most Londoners will stick to except for Season Ticket users (who could still be in trouble if the ITSO doesn't work on a rival TOC's reader although valid to London Terminals).

 

[transmanche]

So if I decide to use ITSO in the future on my local journey from Forest Hill, I'd need Southern's The Key and whatever Southeastern brand theirs between London Bridge and Charing Cross?

As SET are also a GoVia company, it'll also be 'The Key'.

Think I'll stick to the integrated Oyster card scheme all the same which I suspect most Londoners will stick to except for Season Ticket users (who could still be in trouble if the ITSO doesn't work on a rival TOC's reader although valid to London Terminals).

I think that kind of thing will be sorted out fairly quickly. I believe Oyster readers should be able to accept ITSO cards by the end of the year.

 

[OwlMan]

I appreciate this is something you've spent a lot of time on, but it seems clear if you want to retain the current complexity (I don't), then a method for 'activating' particular tickets for a journey is required (and even for part of the route of a ticket). Obviously, this shouldn't be essential when it's already implicit.

So, if someone hits the barriers and only has one applicable ticket, they go through. If there are multiple tickets, but one is a strictly better choice, it is automatically chosen. If a choice is required, then one should be directed to gateline staff, or a TVM/validation machine. Stand-alone validators could be either designed with a touch-screen monitor, or could be a simpler design.

Although even this system the ToCs might not like, since it might make customers finishing short aware that they still have additional validity they can use another day. But it should be balanced by the decrease risk of open-return fraud, and the ability to offer innovative ticket products, such as Carnets that actually work (see also, FCC).

That sounds fine for a major station but what about small stations that are unstaffed for part of the day, what hardware would you install there because the cost of your solution would be unsustaainable for the whole network.
If you are not going to maintain the current system what system will you use, remember it is for buses & trains nationally, that does not increase fares for passengers and does not increase profit for transport companies?

 

[34D]

that does not increase fares for passengers and does not increase profit for transport companies?

Did you not mean "that does not _decrease_ profit..."

 

[jon0844]

I appreciate this is something you've spent a lot of time on, but it seems clear if you want to retain the current complexity (I don't), then a method for 'activating' particular tickets for a journey is required (and even for part of the route of a ticket). Obviously, this shouldn't be essential when it's already implicit.

So, if someone hits the barriers and only has one applicable ticket, they go through. If there are multiple tickets, but one is a strictly better choice, it is automatically chosen. If a choice is required, then one should be directed to gateline staff, or a TVM/validation machine. Stand-alone validators could be either designed with a touch-screen monitor, or could be a simpler design.

Although even this system the ToCs might not like, since it might make customers finishing short aware that they still have additional validity they can use another day. But it should be balanced by the decrease risk of open-return fraud, and the ability to offer innovative ticket products, such as Carnets that actually work (see also, FCC).

I'd hope that someone would develop some sort of 'least cost routing' system used for some phone services, based around a more simplified ticketing system that would make it possible to best calculate fares afterwards.

Clearly if you were about to make a very long journey, you'd seek to get a ticket purchased from a machine (or your smartphone app) and loaded on to your smartcard by touching at the TVM, your phone or perhaps even being stored ON your phone.

I can't see how you could keep the current setup of tickets and complex restrictions if you wanted to go to smartcards, but various discounts (as mentioned) which can be kept to one card/user would help keep costs down for regular travellers who should be no worse off, or even better off, in the long run.

Very occasional passengers would possibly pay more, but that's often the best way to do things (and railcards could solve some of that).

I also think that validation machines on certain trains would be the final bit of a jigsaw, where you can more effectively work out the correct fare. Let's say you had two options at your station; local service and Intercity. You might find that to secure the cheaper fare, you must touch in on the slower train. And if you were 'clever' and jumped on a slow train to touch in, then got off to use the fast train - you'd be treated as you might be now for fraud.

 

[OwlMan]

Did you not mean "that does not _decrease_ profit..."

Yes, Sorry Original message corrected.

I could say a lot more but unfortunately business confidentiality means I can only speak in general terms.

 

[bicbasher]

The only way I can see ITSO becoming mass market as Oyster has been in London is to allow the cards to be valid on every TOC. Limiting them to only work on the individual TOC's won't bring in the wider benefits of smartcard ticketing.

As TfL did with Oyster, offer what is to be perceived discounted travel, then bring in certain tickets such as Advances and CDR's which can be only added to the card.

As an aside, I'm aware that all Oyster readers will be ITSO compatible, but can anyone seriously see London Overground providing and even promoting a NR product when they're not exactly the most NR friendly of the TOC's and provide cheaper fares via Oyster as part of being a TfL concession?

 

[aleph_0]

That sounds fine for a major station but what about small stations that are unstaffed for part of the day, what hardware would you install there because the cost of your solution would be unsustaainable for the whole network.
If you are not going to maintain the current system what system will you use, remember it is for buses & trains nationally, that does not increase fares for passengers and does not increase profit for transport companies?

I'm assuming we would have 3 types of station:
1. Has validators, and super-validators/TVMs capable of selecting tickets to validate for journey.
2. Has basic validators. They should always allow an 'unreconciled' journey to be started, but might also offer auto selection of a ticket to use.
3. Has no validators.

Long term, the cost shouldn't be much different (I realise short-term upgrading TVMs/TVM software is costly). If a station deserves a TVM, a validator isn't a huge marginal cost.

There's a neat mapping between current practice. A passenger from a type 2 or 3 station will need to interact with a guard to obtain/select the ticket for the unreconciled journey, just as now.

Of course, in practice, the ToC might have other prefered ways of working. But the system I've outlined seems to capture all the functionality of paper tickets.

 

[Muzer]

Just tried to register my Stagecoach Smart card on the Stagecoach Smart (bus) website, and apparently it's an invalid card. Don't tell me, there's a separate Stagecoach Smart card for bus and rail services?

 

[34D]

The only way I can see ITSO becoming mass market as Oyster has been in London is to allow the cards to be valid on every TOC. Limiting them to only work on the individual TOC's won't bring in the wider benefits of smartcard ticketing.

Indeed. Though hopefully within the next year, the two regional schemes up north (Yorcard and GMT) will have started, and these will be pan-operator.

 

[OwlMan]

I also think that validation machines on certain trains would be the final bit of a jigsaw, where you can more effectively work out the correct fare. Let's say you had two options at your station; local service and Intercity. You might find that to secure the cheaper fare, you must touch in on the slower train. And if you were 'clever' and jumped on a slow train to touch in, then got off to use the fast train - you'd be treated as you might be now for fraud.

There would need to be validators on trains if there was still to be TOC only fares. It also might be cheaper to equip trains with validators than providing every station with the equipment - the only problem being loading times with people having to validate their cards getting on & off.
We having been experimenting using gps data and on-train validators to remove the need for any barriers or validators at stations.
Validators are available that can read a card on a person without them needing to touch in (effectively an arch around the door that you have to walk through) but at present are not reliable enough.

 

[34D]

Validators are available that can read a card on a person without them needing to touch in (effectively an arch around the door that you have to walk through) but at present are not reliable enough.

Can of worms!!

 

[OwlMan]

Can of worms!!

Yes but it is the only way on-train validation will work.

 

[mattdickinson]

Just tried to register my Stagecoach Smart card on the Stagecoach Smart (bus) website, and apparently it's an invalid card. Don't tell me, there's a separate Stagecoach Smart card for bus and rail services?

It's worse than that. There are separate ones for SWT and EMT.

 

[button_boxer]

Just tried to register my Stagecoach Smart card on the Stagecoach Smart (bus) website, and apparently it's an invalid card. Don't tell me, there's a separate Stagecoach Smart card for bus and rail services?

More likely the website is only set up to register card numbers it already knows about. The call centre (0845 810 1000) may be more helpful.

 

[Muzer]

There would need to be validators on trains if there was still to be TOC only fares. It also might be cheaper to equip trains with validators than providing every station with the equipment - the only problem being loading times with people having to validate their cards getting on & off.
We having been experimenting using gps data and on-train validators to remove the need for any barriers or validators at stations.
Validators are available that can read a card on a person without them needing to touch in (effectively an arch around the door that you have to walk through) but at present are not reliable enough.

That won't work in the current system where people carry around multiple, interfering cards. It would have to be truly integrated before that would work. This means university ID cards, any other bespoke smart card solutions, etc., would all have to be loadable onto a single card along with train and bus tickets. I don't see that happening, ever. And even if it does, what about people who have a valid ticket on their smartcard and also have a valid paper ticket that in this case they want to use (for whatever reason)? They would be charged the one on their smart card. It's unworkable.

What about just having the guards' validators flag up a ticket as invalid if it's a TOC-only one that's not valid on that TOC. After all, at the moment, the ticket barriers (where they exist) can't detect every sort of invalid ticket (eg TOC-only ones) - why should anyone expect ITSO to be able to?

 

[Be3G]

Oyster will still be required for discounted travel options, such as the Bus & Tram Photocard and Jobcentre Plus card as well as TfL schemes such as free travel for children, discounted travel for students and the 60+ Oyster.

I'm not sure about some of those actually. I get the impression that TfL's systems will act as an intermediary between a contactless card touch-in and a charge being made to the bank account. People will be able to store season tickets, railcard discounts etc. on that central TfL system, which will then adjust the charge made to the customer's bank account accordingly.

That is just my interpretation based on reading between the lines of various bits of info TfL published about their contactless system last year. I could be completely wrong! I also acknowledge that a non-bank-based system would still be needed for situations like youngsters with completely free travel.

 

[bicbasher]

I'm not sure about some of those actually. I get the impression that TfL's systems will act as an intermediary between a contactless card touch-in and a charge being made to the bank account. People will be able to store season tickets, railcard discounts etc. on that central TfL system, which will then adjust the charge made to the customer's bank account accordingly.

That is just my interpretation based on reading between the lines of various bits of info TfL published about their contactless system last year. I could be completely wrong! I also acknowledge that a non-bank-based system would still be needed for situations like youngsters with completely free travel.

Currently the two discount photocards work by adding the photocard number to one of the slots on Oyster in the same way NR railcard discounts are added.

The other way you suggest would suggest extra administration on TfL's part instead of on the passenger and would be complex if the passenger decides to switch accounts.

Contactless cards will be great for using for one-off journeys especially if you have no credit, but is not a substitute for Oyster which can add travelcards, PAYG etc together and calculate the correct fare and when it doesn't, I'd rather have a debit on my Oyster than go in the red with my bank card.

 

[OwlMan]

That won't work in the current system where people carry around multiple, interfering cards. It would have to be truly integrated before that would work. This means university ID cards, any other bespoke smart card solutions, etc., would all have to be loadable onto a single card along with train and bus tickets. I don't see that happening, ever. And even if it does, what about people who have a valid ticket on their smartcard and also have a valid paper ticket that in this case they want to use (for whatever reason)? They would be charged the one on their smart card. It's unworkable.

What about just having the guards' validators flag up a ticket as invalid if it's a TOC-only one that's not valid on that TOC. After all, at the moment, the ticket barriers (where they exist) can't detect every sort of invalid ticket (eg TOC-only ones) - why should anyone expect ITSO to be able to?

You and I know the practicalities of things however the "powers that be" do not. They have been brainwashed into thinking that smart tickets will do everything.

They want a super system that will do everything - sell the tickets, check them, send out "penalty" fares etc BUT will only pay peanuts for it.

On this "pie in the sky" system there will be no paper tickets (all tickets will be on smartcards). There will be no "guards to check tickets (the system will check all tickets so ticket checking staff will no longer be needed so that Britain will have the best ticketing system in the world.

In the real world in ten years time we will still be muddling on in our usual way, probably have five or six different smartcard systems that do not work together, still have the current paper ticket system with even more loopholes and anomalies, and still have staff checking tickets

 

[Paul Kelly]

After all, at the moment, the ticket barriers (where they exist) can't detect every sort of invalid ticket (eg TOC-only ones) - why should anyone expect ITSO to be able to?

For one thing, all the ticket barriers have to go on is the encoded magnetic stripe on the back of the ticket. This has incredibly limited capacity and does not even contain full details of the ticket type let alone the restriction code, hence it is only possible for the barriers (even if they are correctly programmed, which is not a given) to make a guess at whether a ticket is valid or not.

I would expect that the ITSO standard would at a very minimum contain all the information that is currently printed on the front of the ticket, and hopefully a lot more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You and I know the practicalities of things however the "powers that be" do not. They have been brainwashed into thinking that smart tickets will do everything.

Agreed. That was very obvious from the DfT consultation document about fares and ticketing from last year. The way they described so many of the benefits of smart ticketing seemed to me to assume the introduction of an Oyster-style PAYG system for the whole country, with all the drastic changes to fares that that would entail - yet no provision was being made for making such changes. I got the impression there was a severe lack of attention to detail.

 

[jon0844]

There will still need to be checks made with smartcards as people could load invalid tickets, travel the wrong routes or in the wrong class, and much more.

You'd still have penalty fares and/or prosecutions as no replacement system would be foolproof.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I was told by a manager recently that there would be no need for validators for Guards under the new system as it was "very clever" and "Can work out the correct ticket based on the time it has taken you from Station A to Station B". He said that people will be expected to touch in and out at all times at unmanned stations using validators there. The whole point he told me was to remove the need of buying tickets on trains completely.

Whether there is any truth in the matter I don't know. Seems a bit silly to me. What if the validators at the Origin station fail? We all know how reliable TVM's are.

 

[Muzer]

I was told by a manager recently that there would be no need for validators for Guards under the new system as it was "very clever" and "Can work out the correct ticket based on the time it has taken you from Station A to Station B". He said that people will be expected to touch in and out at all times at unmanned stations using validators there. The whole point he told me was to remove the need of buying tickets on trains completely.

Whether there is any truth in the matter I don't know. Seems a bit silly to me. What if the validators at the Origin station fail? We all know how reliable TVM's are.

They seem to be more reliable than TVMs, and there are *usually* more than one at each station (because most stations have more than one exit) - but that still doesn't mean it's impossible for them all to fail.

Just tried to register my Stagecoach Smart card on the Stagecoach Smart (bus) website, and apparently it's an invalid card. Don't tell me, there's a separate Stagecoach Smart card for bus and rail services?

Yep, exactly this; I just got an email confirming it's the case. Unbelievable.

 

[bicbasher]

They seem to be more reliable than TVMs, and there are *usually* more than one at each station (because most stations have more than one exit) - but that still doesn't mean it's impossible for them all to fail.

Indeed, if there's a power cut at my local station where we have two exits, they can keep the other gateline running as the power source is different.

The other issue well known to Oyster users is that you can still touch in, the gate opens and still get an incomplete fare at the other end. Each TOC will need to upgrade their contact facilities so that issues can be resolved quickly.

 

[Deerfold]

They seem to be more reliable than TVMs, and there are *usually* more than one at each station (because most stations have more than one exit) - but that still doesn't mean it's impossible for them all to fail.

Or be vandalised. Sadly there's a few stations where card-only TVMs get vandalised.

 

[jon0844]

If the industry is waiting to get smartcards to replace the need for all staff (or validators to touch along the way, as Oyster has in places) then we will never get them.

They can do loads of things right now and loads more with some added intelligence later on, loyalty schemes etc, but they can't eliminate mistakes, fraud, guarantee to work 100% of the time, or being world peace.

All of these half arsed or incompatible systems are also a joke, as we need a national (perhaps one day international) system and that means the DfT and ATOC needed to develop this, not individual TOCs. Sure, it was added into franchises, but that should have been to implement a system not invent one for just that area, with its own TOC-specific branding.

We need to solve ticketing problems on the railway as a whole, not create loads of ideas that exist only in certain places.

 

[HSTEd]

MIFARE-Ultralight cards (or similar equivalents) are very cheap now (less than £1 each even in small numbers), it would potentially mean that advanced tickets could simply be printed on separate cards with a deposit on the card to get them returned.
(As many ski resorts now do with passes).

It would be interesting to know how much ticket stock actually costs and thus how many times a smartcard would have to be reused to overall save money.

EDIT:

MIFARE Ultralight C (which ought to have sufficient security for the operation) can be purchased for under 60 pence in numbers of the tens of thousands.

 

[starrymarkb]

So about €1 of the price of my €7 Amsterdam Day pass was for the ticket itself (I scanned it with an NFC enabled phone and it's a MiFare Ultralight) - A 1 hour single is €2.80 and again is an Ultralight Smartcard...

 

[Captain Chaos]

I was told for Avantix stock it cost 6 pence per ticket portion so a return ticket is 12 pence if that number is correct.

 

[HSTEd]

So about €1 of the price of my €7 Amsterdam Day pass was for the ticket itself (I scanned it with an NFC enabled phone and it's a MiFare Ultralight) - A 1 hour single is €2.80 and again is an Ultralight Smartcard...

If its a standard Ultralight rather than an 'Ultralight C' then the price is pretty much cut in half (~26p or so) but that might have security issues.
Also 60 pence now comes out at 70 Euro cents rather than one Euro now.

I was told for Avantix stock it cost 6 pence per ticket portion so a return ticket is 12 pence if that number is correct.

Well you can print information on both sides of the card so potentially you can get rid of having separate reservation slips.