"The Robin Hood" back in the day / Asymmetrical Named Trains

[70014IronDuke]

For some reason, I was lured to the TimetableWorld website a week or so back, and then (since it's relevant to my early experience) to the LMR timetable for summer 1961.

Timetable World Viewer

timetableworld.com

And there, in all their glory, are the named trains of the LMR - please understand, this was some years before the idea of a regular, standard 2TPH, and certainly 1TPH clock-face, Inter-City service with fixed calling patterns should exist (at least on the LMR - I sense an @Taunton intervention here with "On the WR, even with a 45xx tank, ...." .

Anyway, I was drawn to The Robin Hood, then presumably marketed as the crack "businessman's" express from Nottingham to the Big Smoke.

In the up it left Nottingham at 08.15 (a bit bloody late, surely? No wonder we'd never had it so good and the £ was falling) to stop at only the great metropolis of Manton (really? Manton, at 08.53? Population 200 souls, at a guess? Of course, it was a junction station, but still) and then arrive in St Pancras at 10.30.

Well, that's 135 minutes for about 128 (?) miles (I forget the distance that way) via the Back Road with one stop. Assuming it was diagrammed for a 5X Jubilee and a trailing load of 10 x Mk1s, c 360 - 370 tons gross, I suppose that's acceptable for the time.

But the evening return is a different train, leaving St Pancras at 17.25, it effectively serves as a longer-distance commuter service for Bedford, Wellingboro' and Kettering (arr approx 18.55 - 72 miles in 90 minutes - and where, I suspect, it was made clear of the main line to make way for the down Midland Pullman).

Again, Manton is then given priority (why not Corby, for goodness sake, or even Oakham?) before arrival in Nottingham at 20.06 - 2 h 41 m, or 161 minutes after London departure. This equates to an average speed of c 48 mph, which is hardly a breathtaking end-to-end performance for your main business express of the day, even in 1961.

The logic of the Manton stop aside, it made me wonder, how many of the named 'expresses' of the day back in the old days (interpret that how you wish) had anything like a such assymetrical schedules, ie very different up and down station stops, and overall timings?

 

[StephenHunter]

There's a number of others in that same timetable. The Manxman that only stops at Crewe going north and The Red Rose doing the same going south.

 

[Harvester]

In 1962 “The West Riding” was allowed 3 hours from Leeds to Kings Cross with just a Wakefield Westgate stop. The down train took 20 minutes longer with additional stops at Hitchin, Grantham, Retford and Doncaster.

 

[hexagon789]

The four named Glasgow-Aberdeen expresses in each direction were like that. In one direction a particular 'namer' might be to the fast 3 hour timing for the 151 miles with 4 stops, but the same name in reverse might apply to one of the slower semi-fasts or the stopping postal/fish working. No name applied to a 3 hour service both ways.

BR effectively added two names to some semi-fast services and switched around the existing named services timings, the LMS had run only two named services, albeit both timed at 3 hours both ways though with only two intermediate calls.


Another service that springs to mind is the 'Aberdonian' until 1972 this was the night sleeper between King's Cross/Aberdeen, in 1972 the sleeper was re-named 'The Night Aberdonian' and the existing day service became 'The Aberdonian'.

Back in the 1960s the Aberdonian sleeper called Stonehaven, Montrose, Arbroath, Dundee (Tay Bridge) in both directions, but the southbound service then called Leuchars, Cupar, Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing and then ran non-stop to King's Cross. Northbound the service not only called at Edinburgh but also stopped at Grantham, York, Darlington and Newcastle while this time running non-stop Edinburgh to Dundee. Quite an unbalanced stopping pattern if ever there was one.

 

[oldman]

The Aberdeen service was balanced but not the names. There were two night trains - an earlier slow one, with Fort William portion, and a later all-sleeper one. For some reason the slower train was given the Aberdonian name northbound, and the faster one coming south.

 

[hexagon789]

The Aberdeen service was balanced but not the names. There were two night trains - an earlier slow one, with Fort William portion, and a later all-sleeper one. For some reason the slower train was given the Aberdonian name northbound, and the faster one coming south.

Only the 3-hour workings, the other two named services each way were not (north they were 3h15 and 3h30, south 3h30 and 4 hours respectively from memory with unbalanced stops).

 

[Taunton]

Was some of this tied to the stock diagrams? In those times named trains had large boards above the windows with the name, which were a right nuisance to change so were left in position long term. Many longer distance trains just did a single return journey each day, so it was convenient to just leave as is.

 

[30907]

Anyway, I was drawn to The Robin Hood, then presumably marketed as the crack "businessman's" express from Nottingham to the Big Smoke.

In the up it left Nottingham at 08.15 (a bit bloody late, surely? No wonder we'd never had it so good and the £ was falling) to stop at only the great metropolis of Manton (really? Manton, at 08.53? Population 200 souls, at a guess? Of course, it was a junction station, but still) and then arrive in St Pancras at 10.30.

10.30am was plenty early enough for an 11am meeting and luncheon - in those days it was only mainland Europe that was prepared to get up at crack of dawn (I recall a comment from CJ Allen on French early morning expresses).
The stop at Manton was well served with connections from both directions

Again, Manton is then given priority (why not Corby, for goodness sake, or even Oakham?)

Corby? Purely an industrial town, and I doubt the managers had much call to go to London....

 

[70014IronDuke]

The four named Glasgow-Aberdeen expresses in each direction were like that. In one direction a particular 'namer' might be to the fast 3 hour timing for the 151 miles with 4 stops, but the same name in reverse might apply to one of the slower semi-fasts or the stopping postal/fish working. No name applied to a 3 hour service both ways.

BR effectively added two names to some semi-fast services and switched around the existing named services timings, the LMS had run only two named services, albeit both timed at 3 hours both ways though with only two intermediate calls.


Another service that springs to mind is the 'Aberdonian' until 1972 this was the night sleeper between King's Cross/Aberdeen, in 1972 the sleeper was re-named 'The Night Aberdonian' and the existing day service became 'The Aberdonian'.

Back in the 1960s the Aberdonian sleeper called Stonehaven, Montrose, Arbroath, Dundee (Tay Bridge) in both directions, but the southbound service then called Leuchars, Cupar, Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing and then ran non-stop to King's Cross. Northbound the service not only called at Edinburgh but also stopped at Grantham, York, Darlington and Newcastle while this time running non-stop Edinburgh to Dundee. Quite an unbalanced stopping pattern if ever there was one.

Seems it was a case of "Aberdeen the Asymmetrical" all round - the Night Aberdonian in particular. I think I must have caught that one summer evening in 1970 from Kirkaldy about 21.00? Sleeper passengers only? Steward allowed me on - I only asked for a seat - and he gave me a birth. And brought me tea in the morning. (I had a PT card.) Arrived in KX around 07.00 maybe? Deltic hauled.

 

[hexagon789]

Seems it was a case of "Aberdeen the Asymmetrical" all round - the Night Aberdonian in particular. I think I must have caught that one summer evening in 1970 from Kirkaldy about 21.00? Sleeper passengers only? Steward allowed me on - I only asked for a seat - and he gave me a birth. And brought me tea in the morning. (I had a PT card.) Arrived in KX around 07.00 maybe? Deltic hauled.

The May 1970-May 1971 timetable has the Aberdonian applying to different things. Until 06/06 and from 12/09 it was the 1915 seats and beds ex-Aberdeen, 2200 off Kirkcaldy.

Outwith these dates the service still ran but unnamed.

There was then the 2030 Aberdonian from Aberdeen which left Kirkcaldy at 2305, this was beds only except 13/06-05/09 when it also conveyed seated passengers.

On Sundays, irrespective of dates, the 2030 was the Aberdonian and it was beds only.

The 1915 arrived KGX at 0632, running fast Kirkcaldy to Edinburgh then Newcastle, York, Doncaster, Grantham & Peterborough.

The 2030 was fast Inverkeithing to London and arrived in King's Cross at 0658.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The May 1970-May 1971 timetable has the Aberdonian applying to different things. Until 06/06 and from 12/09 it was the 1915 seats and beds ex-Aberdeen, 2200 off Kirkcaldy.

Outwith these dates the service still ran but unnamed.

There was then the 2030 Aberdonian from Aberdeen which left Kirkcaldy at 2305, this was beds only except 13/06-05/09 when it also conveyed seated passengers.

On Sundays, irrespective of dates, the 2030 was the Aberdonian and it was beds only.

The 1915 arrived KGX at 0632, running fast Kirkcaldy to Edinburgh then Newcastle, York, Doncaster, Grantham & Peterborough.

The 2030 was fast Inverkeithing to London and arrived in King's Cross at 0658.

Thanks for taking the trouble over this! I'm a bit perplexed, because as I remember it was still daylight when the train pulled in at Kirkaldy. It was probably July, even so at 22.00, I'd have thought it would have been dark. But I suppose it must have been that train. It was a weekday, I'm certain of that. I was zonked, and only woke up flying through the misty north London suburbs, probably by the steward and his cuppa.

It had been a fruitless trip north, hoping to photograph steam on the Wemyss private railway in the Fife coalfields. As I remember, I was told steam had ceased a week or two previously. About the only other thing I remember was trying to speak to some young miners at the colleries and being unable to understand them

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for taking the trouble over this!

No problem, but it takes me all of two seconds to look out the timetables - so it's never any trouble!

I'm a bit perplexed, because as I remember it was still daylight when the train pulled in at Kirkaldy. It was probably July, even so at 22.00, I'd have thought it would have been dark.

So I looked it up and in mid-July sunset is about 2150 in Kirkaldy (on the Summer Solstice it's 2207). Dusk is typically about 45-50 mins later, so dark at 2250-ish maybe? I.e. it would have been still just about light at 2200hrs I think.

It had been a fruitless trip north, hoping to photograph steam on the Wemyss private railway in the Fife coalfields. As I remember, I was told steam had ceased a week or two previously.

That's a 'right scunner' , just missing out like that. Hopefully it didn't entirely sour the trip - I'd have gone just for the experience of the sleeper in those days tbh, but then I'm too young for those halcyon days of Deltics and Brush 4s on the ECML, and steam-heat Mk1 sleeping cars.