The return of the sleeper?

[Peter Kelford]

Apologies if this should be in International Travel or Coronavirus as it encroaches on all three areas.

Given the very probable mid-term decrease (Perhaps around 5-10 years) in air travel, it is likely that the sector worst hit will be short-haul travel. Furthermore, given the increasingly powerful Green/environmental movement, it would seem likely to me that any future increase in flights towards pre-pandemic levels will be widely denounced by said movement. Nonetheless, in the band of travel distance between that where flights are not going to be replaced by anything for the foreseeable future (2/3 hours+) and the range of maximum efficiency for HSR (about 800 to 1000km), is there scope for some faster sleepers, or even sleepers partially using HS lines?

I wonder how this might work for the UK given CTRL's 375m continuous corridor (perhaps splitting trains at Lille) but in general, a train from London to Milan could take around a night, or to Frankfurt, leaving between 6pm and 8pm and arriving the following morning before or around 9 am.

 

[Energy]

Maybe international but not domestic, a high speed sleeper train would have probably finished by or close to midnight, not the morning.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Maybe international but not domestic, a high speed sleeper train would have probably finished by or close to midnight, not the morning.

Well, it wouldn't be on the high-speed line the whole time, just for the hours that the line is open. It is, of course, possible to time the trains such that the sections on classic line (e.g. Marseille to Genoa) take place during high-speed closing hours.

 

[Energy]

Well, it wouldn't be on the high-speed line the whole time, just for the hours that the line is open. It is, of course, possible to time the trains such that the sections on classic line (e.g. Marseille to Genoa) take place during high-speed closing hours.

Is the demand great enough though? Trains through the channel tunnel have to be long so passengers can escape in case of a fire and I doubt there is 16 carriages of demand for these sleepers.

 

[Peter Kelford]

It would be 16 coaches that split once across the channel. If you note my original post, I did allude to that, so it might be restricted to the continent...

 

[30907]

London to Frankfurt is 5 1/2 hours with a change at Brussels, so at the bottom range of a viable distance for a sleeper. Munich to Milan, which is probably the shortest Western European route with a sleeper, is round the 7 1/2 hour mark, and is a 4 or 5 coach portion attached to longer distance Nightjet services.

London to Milan is a better length.
However, it isn't just the Tunnel that requires long trains - the only remotely viable sleepers in Western Europe work by having maximum length trains throughout and swapping portions en route. So, with suitable stock (and a change in UK govt immigration policy), something like London and Amsterdam/Brussels to Milan etc /Barcelona would be needed to make it work.
Trouble is, if I were starting a Jet de Nuit-pattern service in France, I would opt for Frankfurt/Strasbourg in preference to London as my second northern terminal. And that's off topic (not to mention unlikely)

 

[Peter Kelford]

It doesn't have to be a London-based route.

 

[Energy]

It doesn't have to be a London-based route.

Where else would people want to go though? Many people want to go from Edinburgh to London as well as London to Edinburgh (excluding people returning) but I doubt many people want to go, for example, from Paris to Leeds.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I meant that it may or may not involve the UK.

 

[Bald Rick]

No chance for any sleepers serving the U.K.

On the continent, there are, of course, moves to increase (more accurately reinstate) a handful of sleeper services.

There’s 2 big “buts”

1) in the short term, air travel is more likely to be hit long haul than short haul. Simply because locally adjacent country ‘blocs’ may ease travel restrictions within, but impose more stringent restrictions for travellers from without. This is particularly the case for countries that have their economies linked, like, for example, most of Europe.

2) The reason air traffic may fall is because the demand isn’t there. If it’s not there for air, it’s not there for sleepers either. Given that it’s much easier to be demand adaptive in the air market than the overnight sleeper market, I suggest that sleepers will struggle even more than they would have.

 

[edwin_m]

No chance for any sleepers serving the U.K.

On the continent, there are, of course, moves to increase (more accurately reinstate) a handful of sleeper services.

There’s 2 big “buts”

1) in the short term, air travel is more likely to be hit long haul than short haul. Simply because locally adjacent country ‘blocs’ may ease travel restrictions within, but impose more stringent restrictions for travellers from without. This is particularly the case for countries that have their economies linked, like, for example, most of Europe.

2) The reason air traffic may fall is because the demand isn’t there. If it’s not there for air, it’s not there for sleepers either. Given that it’s much easier to be demand adaptive in the air market than the overnight sleeper market, I suggest that sleepers will struggle even more than they would have.

Agreed, this is more about long-term trends in travel. If the effects of Covid last long enough to influence plans for future rail services then we're stuffed for a whole range of other reasons.

As mentioned any sleeper to the UK is impossible because it would have to have a wide variety of origins to be viable and each of those would need immigration security, with the UK portion of the train segregated from portions going elsewhere. Either that or tip everyone out at Lille for an hour at 5am, which would kill it stone dead.

If a network of sleepers re-appeared across mainland Europe then the UK would be served by Eurostar connections at Paris, Lille or Brussels. It's possible to leave London at the end of the working day to catch an evening sleeper from one of those cities, and arrivals around 0700 there would connect to London arriving about 1000 (the time difference helps here). As with day services, the viability of doing this drops off significantly once a further change in London is necessary.

 

[60019]

Regional UK services to France and beyond might be practical after the Brexit process: it was widely speculated that the reason UKBA categorically refused to perform on-train checks (even though the 373s had cells to lock upon illegal immigrants at their request) was mainly to prevent commuters from Lille and surrounding areas travelling to London, but without national treatment of EU citizens that isn't as much of an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regional UK services to France and beyond might be practical after the Brexit process: it was widely speculated that the reason UKBA categorically refused to perform on-train checks (even though the 373s had cells to lock upon illegal immigrants at their request) was mainly to prevent commuters from Lille and surrounding areas travelling to London, but without national treatment of EU citizens that isn't as much of an issue.

I think that's a far-fetched and nonsensical conspiracy theory. The location of the check has no bearing on whether someone would commute between countries.

 

[RT4038]

Regional UK services to France and beyond might be practical after the Brexit process: it was widely speculated that the reason UKBA categorically refused to perform on-train checks (even though the 373s had cells to lock upon illegal immigrants at their request) was mainly to prevent commuters from Lille and surrounding areas travelling to London, but without national treatment of EU citizens that isn't as much of an issue.

That speculation is just nonsense. It is all to do with not having illegal immigrants 'landing' on UK soil, because it is very difficult and expensive to remove them again. (Talking about Asylum seekers and economic migrants, rather than an Australian with an expired visa!). When the Eurostars were first designed/put into service this was not really a problem, but sharply became one soon afterwards.

 

[Vespa]

That speculation is just nonsense. It is all to do with not having illegal immigrants 'landing' on UK soil, because it is very difficult and expensive to remove them again. (Talking about Asylum seekers and economic migrants, rather than an Australian with an expired visa!). When the Eurostars were first designed/put into service this was not really a problem, but sharply became one soon afterwards.

I've always said we need an Electronic Travel Authorisation scheme in place like US ESTA, Canada and Australian ETA, this would filter out most undesirables and provide identification of those using false documentation.

It won't eradicate all, it will just make it harder.

 

[RT4038]

I've always said we need an Electronic Travel Authorisation scheme in place like US ESTA, Canada and Australian ETA, this would filter out most undesirables and provide identification of those using false documentation.

It won't eradicate all, it will just make it harder.

I'm not sure how it would make much difference to solving this problem? At what point is this 'filter out' actually going to happen? The UK Government does not want anyone 'landing' in this country without the correct papers and authorisation for entry. The carrier does not want it either, as they get fined for each arrival and repeated offences will result in suspension of operating licence. The airlines get over this problem by checking each passenger in a secure area before boarding (and you will notice how careful they are in checking passports when you are on an inbound flight to the UK from foreign parts). Passports are then also checked by UKBA when you 'land'.
Eurostar actually get preferential treatment (no doubt at a cost!). UKBA clear the passengers at the foreign terminal (Paris, Brussels, Lille etc), which means no further check on arrival. However, this is only cost effective where there is a reasonable throughput of passengers, and the platforms can be kept sterile with no unauthorised entry. For Eurostar to adopt the airline model (which is the only way sleeper services could possibly work) would mean Eurostar staff checking passports of pax before boarding at the train door at foreign stations (with increased dwell time), keeping the train locked and secure during the journey, and St. Pancras arrivals hall being set up to do routine passport checking of arriving passengers (for which the current area is not big enough). I expect that UKBA would not accept some trains requiring border checks on arrival and others not [due to the possibility of mixing], or some pretty stringent security measures to prevent that possibility.
It will be a brave person to make a financial case for Sleeper car trains to pay for all this Immigration procedure, and that is before actually running the train!

 

[Vespa]

I'm not sure how it would make much difference to solving this problem? At what point is this 'filter out' actually going to happen? The UK Government does not want anyone 'landing' in this country without the correct papers and authorisation for entry. The carrier does not want it either, as they get fined for each arrival and repeated offences will result in suspension of operating licence. The airlines get over this problem by checking each passenger in a secure area before boarding (and you will notice how careful they are in checking passports when you are on an inbound flight to the UK from foreign parts). Passports are then also checked by UKBA when you 'land'.
Eurostar actually get preferential treatment (no doubt at a cost!). UKBA clear the passengers at the foreign terminal (Paris, Brussels, Lille etc), which means no further check on arrival. However, this is only cost effective where there is a reasonable throughput of passengers, and the platforms can be kept sterile with no unauthorised entry. For Eurostar to adopt the airline model (which is the only way sleeper services could possibly work) would mean Eurostar staff checking passports of pax before boarding at the train door at foreign stations (with increased dwell time), keeping the train locked and secure during the journey, and St. Pancras arrivals hall being set up to do routine passport checking of arriving passengers (for which the current area is not big enough). I expect that UKBA would not accept some trains requiring border checks on arrival and others not [due to the possibility of mixing], or some pretty stringent security measures to prevent that possibility.
It will be a brave person to make a financial case for Sleeper car trains to pay for all this Immigration procedure, and that is before actually running the train!

It has worked in other countries that uses it, as a condition of visa waiver the CBSA AND Homeland Security have access to UK database on passport records, I would expect reciprocal arrangements.

I have used ESTA and ETA with no problems, I would expect the same for this country, this is not a race thing, it's to keep undesirables out in the first place.

 

[RT4038]

It has worked in other countries that uses it, as a condition of visa waiver the CBSA AND Homeland Security have access to UK database on passport records, I would expect reciprocal arrangements.

I have used ESTA and ETA with no problems, I would expect the same for this country, this is not a race thing, it's to keep undesirables out in the first place.

I understand what you say, but the problem in hand is how to physically stop persons without ESTA and ETA from 'landing' in the UK, if they are coming on a Sleeper Train?
Certainly not a race thing - my illustration of an Australian with an expired visa is that they would be easy to repatriate. Not so for many others, for all sorts of reasons.

 

[Vespa]

I understand what you say, but the problem in hand is how to physically stop persons without ESTA and ETA from 'landing' in the UK, if they are coming on a Sleeper Train?
Certainly not a race thing - my illustration of an Australian with an expired visa is that they would be easy to repatriate. Not so for many others, for all sorts of reasons.

When I travelled by Eurostar from Paris, there is a passport check on the platform before boarding, it's been a while I presume its still being checked as we're are not part of Shenghen also they would looming to stop criminals and person of interest fleeing France.

If there is a sleeper from further afield, similar checks should be made before boarding using an isolated international platform island.

I remember interailing round Europe we regularly got our passport checked on the train and often woke us up if it's an overnight sleeper.

 

[RT4038]

When I travelled by Eurostar from Paris, there is a passport check on the platform before boarding, it's been a while I presume its still being checked as we're are not part of Shenghen also they would looming to stop criminals and person of interest fleeing France.

If there is a sleeper from further afield, similar checks should be made before boarding using an isolated international platform island.

I remember interailing round Europe we regularly got our passport checked on the train and often woke us up if it's an overnight sleeper.

There is a passport check, by UKBA staff, upon entering the secure area at Paris Gare du Nord. I have never had one 'on the platform'.
UKBA will not go to 'isolated international platform islands' to go and do this check elsewhere for sleeper trains. (or actually they probably will, at great cost to the Sleeping Car operator). And these 'isolated international platform islands' would require quite considerable security (also at a great cost for a train which is only there for thirty minutes) to ensure that no illegals snuck on board.
Quite possibly this passport inspection could take place while the train stood for about one hour in say Lille, but what kind of sleep experience are you going to get? You quote your Interrail experience - maybe experiences like that are one of the reasons why so few International sleeping car trains run today?
Financially it just doesn't stack up.

 

[60019]

I think that's a far-fetched and nonsensical conspiracy theory. The location of the check has no bearing on whether someone would commute between countries.

it does make it much more difficult to commute if your train has to double back to Calais-Fréthun (rather than collecting passengers along the classic network to Calais and using the direct connection there), tip everyone out, and wait for them to have their ID checked, because it added so much time onto the journey that it became unreasonable.

It is all to do with not having illegal immigrants 'landing' on UK soil, because it is very difficult and expensive to remove them again.

Under the pre-Dublin rules applicable at the time it would have been easy to return anyone rejected to France, since you're allowed to send people back over the border they used to come in if you can prove which it was instead of sending them home (which is the really difficult part, especially when their homeland doesn't want them). Also, the bid proposed picking up UKBA guards at the last stop before the tunnel, but instead of being told "you'll have to pay for X guards" (as was later done with the Eurostar specials) it was flatly rejected.

Quite possibly this passport inspection could take place while the train stood for about one hour in say Lille, but what kind of sleep experience are you going to get? You quote your Interrail experience - maybe experiences like that are one of the reasons why so few International sleeping car trains run today?

Pre-Schengen luxury sleepers would sometimes have the attendant collect passport and show them to the border guards, who would only wake passengers up if they wanted to ask questions. I suppose the high cost of tickets on those trains would reduce the already low number of "undesirables" on those services, while the greater fear of identity theft would make passengers unwilling to trust their passports to a stranger.

 

[Bald Rick]

When I travelled by Eurostar from Paris, there is a passport check on the platform before boarding, it's been a while I presume its still being checked as we're are not part of Shenghen also they would looming to stop criminals and person of interest fleeing France.

If there is a sleeper from further afield, similar checks should be made before boarding using an isolated international platform island.

I remember interailing round Europe we regularly got our passport checked on the train and often woke us up if it's an overnight sleeper.

But that’s the point. There would have to be secure areas at every station served.

Unless, of course, the U.K. grew a pair and happily accepted that there’s no good reason why the U.K. has to be different tothe rest of Europe re border controls, and joined schengen.

 

[Vespa]

There is a passport check, by UKBA staff, upon entering the secure area at Paris Gare du Nord. I have never had one 'on the platform'.
UKBA will not go to 'isolated international platform islands' to go and do this check elsewhere for sleeper trains. (or actually they probably will, at great cost to the Sleeping Car operator). And these 'isolated international platform islands' would require quite considerable security (also at a great cost for a train which is only there for thirty minutes) to ensure that no illegals snuck on board.
Quite possibly this passport inspection could take place while the train stood for about one hour in say Lille, but what kind of sleep experience are you going to get? You quote your Interrail experience - maybe experiences like that are one of the reasons why so few International sleeping car trains run today?
Financially it just doesn't stack up.

There have to be a check otherwise anyone can slip in.

When I had my passport check, there is a barrier and walls preventing anyone from slipping pass.

What is YOUR solution ?

 

[Vespa]

Unless, of course, the U.K. grew a pair and happily accepted that there’s no good reason why the U.K. has to be different tothe rest of Europe re border controls, and joined schengen.

I would not accept joining Shenghen there is no benefit and many disadvantages, you would have to trust that eastern Europe and France can defend their gates and coastlines against illegal immigration.

Illegal is exactly that, once in, there is nothing to stop them from arriving at an already densely populated country that recently seen the biggest increase in population without the facilities to match.

Nope I would rather trust my own immigration controls.

 

[Bald Rick]

What is YOUR solution ?

I know that wasn’t directed at me, but in the absence of joining Schengen, my solution is to not run the services.

They will never run anyway, as there would be no market for the: at the ticket prices they would have to charge to Break even.

 

[60019]

But that’s the point. There would have to be secure areas at every station served.

Unless, of course, the U.K. grew a pair and happily accepted that there’s no good reason why the U.K. has to be different tothe rest of Europe re border controls, and joined schengen.

There's a good reason in theory, since with a collection of islands with fairly limited access routes it is much easier to rigorously inspect at the border and so avoid any internal controls such as residency registration, and that should be less intrusive, easier, cheaper (especially since you know where to send people back, and who to fine for the cost of their accommodation in the meantime, if you catch them getting off the ferry or plane), and so on. In practice they don't check anywhere near everything coming in, they do a lot of intrusive (but ineffective) data matching anyway, and spend loads of money doing it. I would expect that the solid border approach would be easier and cheaper to do properly, but there's not a lot of point to the inconvenience if they don't.

 

[edwin_m]

Paris and Brussels are 2-3 hours away and have reasonably frequent service to London including the necessary border formalities. In view of the difficulties of running sleepers through to the UK, the best we can expect from any revival of sleepers within Europe to connect in one of those cities. In this case the time difference works in our favour - you can leave London at the end of the working day to catch a late evening sleeper and one arriving reasonably early in Paris/Brussels gets you to London in time for a 1000 meeting.

Beyond London is of course a different matter, but any sleepers doing that would have to cope with UK loading gauge, Tunnel fire safety, passports, baggage security checks and most importantly the lack of enough people to/from any one city to fill a train.

 

[RT4038]

There have to be a check otherwise anyone can slip in.

When I had my passport check, there is a barrier and walls preventing anyone from slipping pass.

What is YOUR solution ?

Well, since you ask, my solution is not a solution, just the status quo -not run sleeping car trains to & from the UK through the Channel Tunnel, as there does not appear to be any practicable solution to the Immigration checks. The sleepers can run to and from the checkpoints of Brussels, Lille and Paris, with passengers changing trains to & from London. It is all a bit nostalgic for the 'Orient Express' , but very few would use them at the fares required to be economic.

If you look throughout the world there are relatively few International sleeping car services across national borders ( I am not counting any which are in Common Travel Areas such as Schengen). Most have been superseded by air travel and/or stopped for political reasons. Many of those that do still run stop for long periods at the border stations.

 

[popeter45]

without expanding juxtaposed control the only real solution for a UK centric European sleeper would be one that would terminate at Lille Flanders or Lille Europe on its return journey for you then to disembark, go thru customs them board a regular Eurostar

 

[Peter Kelford]

Regional UK services to France and beyond might be practical after the Brexit process: it was widely speculated that the reason UKBA categorically refused to perform on-train checks (even though the 373s had cells to lock upon illegal immigrants at their request) was mainly to prevent commuters from Lille and surrounding areas travelling to London, but without national treatment of EU citizens that isn't as much of an issue.

I didn't realise what I presume to be the baggage areas and enclosed 'cabins' could serve that purpose.

(for which the current area is not big enough)

Well there would be at most 2 sleepers per night and so the hall would probably be about big enough once passengers are spread out. In any case the much smaller Lille-Europe immigration hall doesn't seem to unduly deter South of France travellers (personally I wouldn't go though).