The Railway Menu

[MidnightFlyer]

Are there any large stations with a Wetherspoons in ???

Leeds, I'm sure there's more though...

 

[Butts]

Leeds, I'm sure there's more though...

We need a Wetherspoons on Wheels.....or should that be Rails

 

[LE Greys]

Are there any large stations with a Wetherspoons in ???

Quite a few, London Victoria and Leeds for a start. Also one called the Aberdeen Hero in the obvious place (not the only [Insert city name] Hero around). Both not too bad compared with the likes of Burger King, but generally duff.

I seem to remember a place in/near Teignmouth station that was pretty good, can't remember what it was called, though.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I thought the TOC might take care of that pleased to get rid of the hassle and benefit from the improved catering operation.

So would any reasonable person, but . . .
just as one Department decides to support a proposal because it reduces liabilities or increases revenue, another Department is bound to want to screw as much as poss out of any incumbent contractor.

I don't want to be negative, though it really would be easier (and less expensive for the consumer/passenger) if the TOCs could do it themselves, because they could re-employ Restaurant crews as 'general' catering crew on their non-service journey, and use the same Station Supplier that they use for their all-day snacks and processed foods, whereas a Contractor would have to pay for staff to travel pax without providing any service or revenue-earning duties and for their own Station Supplier(s) to provide their own stocks at 3, 4 or more stations on the route.

Anyone with experience in the on-board caterng sector is welcome to contact me to discuss!

 

[SS4]

We need a Wetherspoons on Wheels.....or should that be Rails

I wouldn't say no!

I think any catering on board would have to be geared towards hot food because with cold food people will continue to buy at supermarkets in stations (I am defining cold as served at room temperature in this case). Drinks are served ice-cold and hot drinks is simple like an urn.

I would abolish cold food and concentrate on simple dishes which can be either grilled, toasted or fried rather than baked as the former are relatively quick. I don't think passengers will mind having to wait in order to have freshly cooked food. In this case microwaves would be a necessity to heat up any food you have left. I don't think passengers will mind as long as you make it clear it's been reheated.
I would add Earl Grey and another speciality tea to the menu - the latter being rotated periodically unless customer demand shows otherwise and use a (mini) fridge to bring fresh milk on board (if there is any left over staff can drink it/take it home/give it to a random cat).
Much the same with cold drinks, have the coke, lemonade, water etc and then something like cream soda or dandelion and burdock.

 

[Butts]

I wouldn't say no!

I think any catering on board would have to be geared towards hot food because with cold food people will continue to buy at supermarkets in stations (I am defining cold as served at room temperature in this case). Drinks are served ice-cold and hot drinks is simple like an urn.

I would abolish cold food and concentrate on simple dishes which can be either grilled, toasted or fried rather than baked as the former are relatively quick. I don't think passengers will mind having to wait in order to have freshly cooked food. In this case microwaves would be a necessity to heat up any food you have left. I don't think passengers will mind as long as you make it clear it's been reheated.
I would add Earl Grey and another speciality tea to the menu - the latter being rotated periodically unless customer demand shows otherwise and use a (mini) fridge to bring fresh milk on board (if there is any left over staff can drink it/take it home/give it to a random cat).
Much the same with cold drinks, have the coke, lemonade, water etc and then something like cream soda or dandelion and burdock.

They do quite good breakfasts for the money it depends whether you want "Brake Brothers" cuisine and prices or something a little more upmarket and hence costlier.

I think you are bordering on The "Orient Express" end of the market - and why not

 

[ApAp]

The lunchtime specials on Page 8 succeeded in ruining a steak sandwich by putting onions in it and ruining a bacon sandwich by adding salad. If I want odd things in a sandwich, I'll ask for them.

These were freshly prepared, so if you didn't want onions/salad you'd just ask for it without. Just like I'd ask for my burger without cheese in the NXEC days (it seemed to vary over time, it started off with cheese, then it didn't have it for a while, sometimes it was an optional extra along with bacon, onions, etc and finally I think it returned to having cheese).

A good option, in my opinion, is to offer a more "pub food" based dining experience. I don't know whether it would work, or whether any TOC has tried it before, but the lower prices and the fact that food would be familiar to most people might attract more customers which would result in higher profits.

I considered the at-seat menu that NXEC introduced on many services (while still retaining the restaurant on the peak services) to be more of a pub food menu. It had things like burgers, sausage and mash and steak sandwiches. It had desserts, but not starters. Was fine when travelling for lunch (although I preferred the restaurant in the evenings) it was certainly a lot better than we have now.

The so called 'first class at seat' menu was also available at the buffet for standard passengers, although this wasn't promoted very well. No mention of it on the website (in face the official name of the menu 'first class at seat' would give no clue to the availability in standard). Some crews would promote the offering but that was fairly rare after the first few weeks of the offering. But if you knew about it then you could get a very good meal in standard.

One thing I did disagree with though was it was actually cheaper to order the food from the buffet rather than at-seat. The official reason was that you were paying more in first class as it was served at-seat. My argument was at-seat service was a stated benefit of their first class offering and you didn't pay extra for at seat service of sandwiches.

 

[Darandio]

Didn't someone mention "Subway" franchising in an older thread some time ago? Maybe it is just me, but I actually think it wouldn't be such a bad idea given the variety and fresh ingredients on offer. Couple it with menus in First, the ability to choose a nice breakfast sub or a hot steak sub delivered to your seat and I would be fairly happy with it given I could have a good choice.

Of course, standard class must visit the buffet car in order to buy a sandwich, but that is no different to how it has pretty much always been. The one downside I can see is that it may be much more popular.

 

[ryan125hst]

Firstly, the personal note. I'm unlikely to choose any of those you've listed, the only interesting item was lasagne

What food would you prefer to see on the menu? Do you agree with the Buffet, Trolley and Breakfast menus?

Secondly, the range. The wastage would be phenomenal. How many covers are you expecting to serve with all those mains? And how many choices are you going tolerate refusing because you've run-out-of-stock? How many of these different options are you going to be able to produce and serve in the one kitchen?

Good point. I think I have gone over the top with menu options and based it on the menu that pubs and restaurants can offer rather than what is achievable on a train! They would defiantly have to cut this menu down and maybe rotate the dishes so that all the food will still be offered, just at different times.

Out of interest, how much of the food is prepared onboard the train and how much is simply prepared and cooked at a station and reheated airline style? Did they used to prepare and cook everything onboard back in the days of LNER, for example?

Third, the times - 2hr service of lunch, 4hr service of dinner. On how many services at those times? Are crew just working one service per shift, or two?
Where and when will they board and where and when will all that the stock be loaded and waste removed? How many crew?

If you think that meals would need to be served on too many trains, they would have to only be served on train journeys of 3 hours and over. The stock will be loaded at terminal stations and on route if needed.

I'm sorry to tell you that not only do I not find the menu appealling but I can see it as being, either, very expensive to deliver, or else there's nothing fresh about it and its all just one-time re-heat dishes made the night before. Might work in a hospital or canteen (or a pub!), but not on trains.

It defiantly wouldn't be a good idea to serve reheated meals. Ideally all the vegetables and meat should be cooked fresh if possible.

In terms of cost, don't you think that £50 is very expensive? Ideally you want good quality food at low prices to encourage customers to eat on the train and not before or after there journey. If the food is rubbish or the price too expensive they will either eat before or after their journey, or make do with a sandwich from the buffet car.

 

[Greenback]

In terms of cost, don't you think that £50 is very expensive? Ideally you want good quality food at low prices to encourage customers to eat on the train and not before or after there journey. If the food is rubbish or the price too expensive they will either eat before or after their journey, or make do with a sandwich from the buffet car.

This is the sticking point about on train catering. There is a balance to be struck between food quality and price. There is also the fact that space is at a premium, which means there is not the ability to carry a wide range of ingredients and to cook everything freshly, as Dave was saying.

The £50 would cover the wine, three courses and the chance to sit ina first class environment for the duration. Given the logistics involved, that may not be an unrealistic price, though personally I'd prefer a standard class environment with first class customers served at seat.

 

[Butts]

This is the sticking point about on train catering. There is a balance to be struck between food quality and price. There is also the fact that space is at a premium, which means there is not the ability to carry a wide range of ingredients and to cook everything freshly, as Dave was saying.

The £50 would cover the wine, three courses and the chance to sit ina first class environment for the duration. Given the logistics involved, that may not be an unrealistic price, though personally I'd prefer a standard class environment with first class customers served at seat.

What if they provided BA Club Class catering -I'm sure that would be possible on a train for a reasonable price.

 

[Greenback]

What if they provided BA Club Class catering -I'm sure that would be possible on a train for a reasonable price.

I don't know what BA Club class catering involves, so I can't comment!

 

[Butts]

I don't know what BA Club class catering involves, so I can't comment!

I only experienced it when I used points to upgrade on a European Flight (got 12,000 points for a letter moaning about I can't remember what- well worth the price of the stamp )

On reflection a lot of it was the same "slop" served in Economy on a china plate so can that idea.

They do operate with even more limited kitchen facilities than a train though.

Permission to go slightly off topic the best bit was The Lounge at Terminal Five decent buffet style grub and as much booze as you could handle - all self-service

 

[Greenback]

Are there any airlines that cook food on board? I'm not an expert on planes, so please forgive me if this is a stupid question! I always thought everything was cook-chill-reheat?

 

[Butts]

Are there any airlines that cook food on board? I'm not an expert on planes, so please forgive me if this is a stupid question! I always thought everything was cook-chill-reheat?

I think you may be correct but I watched a programme about it once and they seemed to produce what looked like "edible scran" on some of the long haul so it must be possible.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is the sticking point about on train catering. There is a balance to be struck between food quality and price. There is also the fact that space is at a premium, . . . .

Exactly!

The £50 would cover the wine, three courses and the chance to sit ina first class environment for the duration. Given the logistics involved, that may not be an unrealistic price, . . . .

I agree again - this is based on the willing £30 - 35 payments while the restaurant cars were operating (maybe £12 for a main, £3-5 for a starter and £3-5 for a dessert plus drinks and tips, then add the notional 'surcharge' for First comfort for an hour or two).

What food would you prefer to see on the menu? Do you agree with the Buffet, Trolley and Breakfast menus?

With which menus? Yours?
Well I wouldn't base any catering provision on my personal preferences - I'd base it on an extensive survey and observation of the target market (folks already using these services and a few using others at motorway services, airports etc). But my personal preferences are for dishes with a variety of distinct ingregients, still separate when presented, as occurs naturally in silver service. Meats, fish, poultry, pasta and all veg etc would be fresh onboard, pastry may be pre-prepped but distinct from its contents until cooked etc.
But there will always be space for one of the pre-assembled 'pub food' dishes you mention on a railway menu!
On the trolleys, I suggest considerng fresh fruit and maybe another filling savoury or sweet (eg any one or two of croissants, scones, samosas, carrot cake etc) but agan I'd base it on research and analysis.

Out of interest, how much of the food is prepared onboard the train . . . . ?

Much, even most, is prepared off-board for assembly on board. There's no potato peeling in a main-line restaurant car!

If you think that meals would need to be served on too many trains, they would have to only be served on train journeys of 3 hours and over. The stock will be loaded at terminal stations and on route if needed.

Think of the crewing costs. How many crew are you going to be able to pay for from the cost of, what, say just 10 covers and then get them home again? If you can get two 3 hour journeys out of each person over an 8 hour day (evn better if you can get 2 sittings on one of them), then that's when you serve food. You can't just design the times of service from the clock and expect crew to be available and that you can then get them home free (or even in their own time!).
And think again about "stock will be loaded on route". How, exactly? How many people are you paying for at which stations over how long a working day? How much chilled hygenic storeage space are they renting from the TOC? How many modules are they allocated (chilled, heated, waste, general purpose) bearing in mind that once a module is loaded, its probably going to end up at another station at another time.
How many office staff do you need at that "on route" location to take deliveries from catering suppliers throught the day while there's other staff taking modules out / bringing them back on platform? Where is the washing done?
Multiply all that by every "on route" location.
These trigger the 'access charges' which, with the crew wages, are the real costs that the menu prices have to cover. East Coast claim that the Restaurant hemorrhaged money - I don't doubt it. The skill is in manipulating the costs while keeping the revenue from passengers as high as possible. That is where I believe they missed an opportunty.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Actually I don't think East Midlands Trains are that far off getting the catering offer right on the Sheffield route, in concept at least (delivery needs a bit more work...), for journeys of up to 2.5 hours.

Standard Class gets a trolley service selling hot & cold drinks, sandwiches, crisps, cakes etc.

First Class gets a dedicated host serving complimentary nibbles and also selling from a short menu of light meals and snacks inspired by the modern gastropub. They are simple to prepare in the onboard galley (with the hot options simply heated in the oven) but designed to still be presented as a quality product. These light meals cost about a fiver and are available on all trains after about 10am. Selected trains before 10am have a chef on board cooking breakfasts which come with a starter and toast/croissants for a tenner, with less substantial and cheaper breakfast options also available.

The main things I would change is have the first class offering 7 days a week and in Standard have the buffet kiosk open as well as the trolley serving better quality coffee and also the first class hot snacks available to order in takeaway boxes to take back to Standard class seats.

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/1st Class Menu March 2011 FINAL.pdf

I can't believe I found myself writing that...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... in Standard have the buffet kiosk open as well as the trolley...

They are reverting back to Buffet-only operation from September

 

[DarloRich]

wtf is a Pannini? Were they not called a ham and cheese toastie once upon a time?

For me, anything under 3 hours doesnt justify a meal service. BUT here are many times when i have to travel after 5 pm long distances and dont arrive at a hotel till 10pm. THEN i would really value a decent, proper meal served on the train.

However, is there a business case for proper food? Is it not just easier and cheaper to sell simple, easy stuff?

 

[SS4]

wtf is a Panini? Were they not called a ham and cheese toastie?

Especially when it's poor grammar! You wouldn't say "a sandwiches" . The cynical part of me suggests that by giving it a posh name the price can be inflated.

However, is there a business case for proper food? Is it not just easier and cheaper to sell simple, easy stuff?

That's what I'd think. IMO the TOCs should go down the route of providing food which cannot be provided at the station facilities. Hot drinks spring immediately to mind.

 

[Mojo]

Put back beans onto the breakfast plate! I know some Tocs do give beans but I find it utterly bizarre that so many Tocs don't provide beans on their breakfasts. I've never been into a cafe and ordered a full breakfast without beans, so why do they do it on trains? They're so easy to just pop in the microwave.

 

[Greenback]

For me beans are an integral part of a full breakfast, but I have been in cafes where you have a choice of beans or tomatoes!

 

[SS4]

Beans are a good substitute for those of us who don't like egg or tomato

 

[HST Power]

Beans are a good substitute for those of us who don't like egg or tomato

I don't mind a boiled egg, but I'd much rather have beans than a fried, or scrambled egg. Complete with sausages, a few rashes of bacon and toast, and that's me sorted!

 

[Blindtraveler]

in approaching this, iv tried to be route speciffic. East west and great westen mainlines a buffet, restaurant and tea and stuff free in FC. That would work fine, with hot food, all be it microwaved always available to all. For the likes of the XC run, with short hops and longer runs I would lower pr?ce4 of existing trolley and also have meals avaikable to order and be brought on at major stops e.g newcastle, york, leeds, birmingham and edinburgh for any who wanted them.