The Railway: First Great Western on Channel 5

[bairy]

Is it worth watching this week? I have recorded it but am pretty non-plussed by the same format every week: ie an event near to an FGW controlled station with an intricate look at the p1$$ cans who use said station: intermittently spliced with a brief look at the role of conductor, dispatcher and RPI. Pretty boring.

Track welding, the measurement train, doing up the brunel bridge, and a brief look at wheelslip training were interesting this time around.


Think the programme did a bad job on the wheelslip stuff though. From what I understand drivers are generally trained to brake defensively (early and light) during slippery conditions, rather than lock up the wheels as the programme seemed to suggest, though I do get why front-clears-back-brakes works.
Won't locked wheels cause flats and damage?

 

[maniacmartin]

I thought the same about flats.

Going back to the Penalty Fares - perhaps FGW instructed staff not to go down the prosecution route in front of the film crew so they don't get portrayed as a big bad corporate. Also, they might be on shady grounds legally if they show people who have not yet been found guilty in court.

 

[jon0844]

That could be the reason. Of course, they can ghost people out and bleep out any names, like other shows - but perhaps FGW was concerned about the negative PR (although, personally, as someone who DOES pay - I'd have thought it positive PR to have been as tough as possible with people when filmed).

While FGW might have been unable to stop the production crew filming, or not had any input in the eventual output - it could clearly manipulate things by simply telling staff what not to do whenever the cameras were around.

I can also say that I think we saw how they'd started to run out of stuff to show, having opted to repeatedly show videos of trespassing that was pretty old and often not anywhere near the FGW line. It was presented in such a way to get around that, which is fine, but I think they would have had no chance getting 12 episodes out!

 

[455driver]

Won't locked wheels cause flats and damage?

Oh yes, the set was used on the skidpan for 2 weeks and then went to Bristol for tyre turning.
That set was used because it had the worst wheelsets so they werent too bothered if it needed new wheels at the end of it (at about £3000 per axle ), it didnt and they got away with turning them down, they wont last much longer though.

In fact when you see the train pulling back up into the station you can hear the wheel flats banging on the rail.

 

[Flamingo]

Even the recent interna' advert for an RPI had a bit about operating "with regard to company image" or some such phrasing...

 

[158747]

Track welding, the measurement train, doing up the brunel bridge, and a brief look at wheelslip training were interesting this time around.


Think the programme did a bad job on the wheelslip stuff though. From what I understand drivers are generally trained to brake defensively (early and light) during slippery conditions, rather than lock up the wheels as the programme seemed to suggest, though I do get why front-clears-back-brakes works.
Won't locked wheels cause flats and damage?

Drivers are trained to brake earlier in slippery conditions, using emergency brake and locking up the wheels is only used as a last resort.

 

[notadriver]

Drivers are trained to brake earlier in slippery conditions, using emergency brake and locking up the wheels is only used as a last resort.

I wish it was as simple as that. I have no hesitation about using the emergency brake if I need it to be honest.

 

[A-driver]

Some TOCs say earlier and lighter however most now say earlier and heavier for the simple reason that most modern units will deploy sand if WSP activity is detected and you are in step 2+. So if you slide in step 1 no sand will drop. Southern actually make it policy that all initial brake applications are made in step 2 (unless it has changed since I left). FCC allow braking in step 1 but make it clear that you have to be in step 2 to get any sand.

The key is that you brake earlier though and should you slide only ever increase the brake application, never reduce it despite that feeling like the natural thing to do.

 

[maniacmartin]

Even the recent interna' advert for an RPI had a bit about operating "with regard to company image" or some such phrasing...

Company image must mean letting evaders get a silly Penalty Fare so paying customers and taxpayers can pay even more to subsidise them. It's odd behaviour for a company that has a monopoly on lots of the routes it runs. You can't argue with management though...:roll:

 

[jon0844]

It's odd how FCC is going for people in a big way - preferring where possible to take people down the byelaw route and then get a nice hefty fee from a pre-court settlement. Ditto Northern and others.

Meanwhile FGW seems to be doing the opposite - going for a more softly softly approach, with very infrequent stings that will have limited success in the long term.

I can understand telling TMs not to risk getting injured and being delayed (although I'd have hoped the solution would be to have more stings with police or RPIs on the services, such that people would always be worried that the ticket checks might be a little more thorough), but what about the other routes where it would appear fare evasion is easy?

Why wouldn't First group have a standard policy on revenue protection? And how much of the money it gets does it get to keep? I guess if it doesn't get to pocket the 'fines' then there's less incentive, and if it knows the franchise is nearly up - there's even less reason to care even if passengers must get upset when they see others get away with it. Some might even be tempted to try themselves.

Or is it that FGW doesn't have sufficient revenue staff levels, and isn't interested in recruiting new ones and giving them the necessary training?

 

[michael769]

Could it be down to differences in franchise commitments. AIUI franchises are putting more and more emphasis on revenue protection.

 

[83G/84D]

Oh yes, the set was used on the skidpan for 2 weeks and then went to Bristol for tyre turning.
That set was used because it had the worst wheelsets so they werent too bothered if it needed new wheels at the end of it (at about £3000 per axle ), it didnt and they got away with turning them down, they wont last much longer though.

In fact when you see the train pulling back up into the station you can hear the wheel flats banging on the rail.

I would have thought that showing how to pull away from a stop on slippery rails is as an important part of the training as stopping in the first place.

The programme didn't cover this though.

I have ridden on trains slipping from a standing start on level track and rising gradients and the outcome can vary considerably depending on driver technique and train type.What are the instructions/ guidelines to drivers on pulling away?

Any drivers on here wishing to comment on this?

 

[Flamingo]

To be fair, I have heard this week from a reliable source that there is a sea-change in FGW's approach to Revenue, with some stations getting new booking offices and TVM's, lots of new ATE's, and a much more high-profile Revenue presence overall.

Indeed, today there was a revenue block all morning on Platform One in Paddington (totally unbarriered), first time I have ever known that. I believe it upset quite a few people!

It's probably to do with the new terms of the new franchise - no revenue support, but if we catch it, we keep it!

 

[Captain Chaos]

To be fair, I have heard this week from a reliable source that there is a sea-change in FGW's approach to Revenue, with some stations getting new booking offices and TVM's, lots of new ATE's, and a much more high-profile Revenue presence overall.

Indeed, today there was a revenue block all morning on Platform One in Paddington (totally unbarriered), first time I have ever known that. I believe it upset quite a few people!

It's probably to do with the new terms of the new franchise - no revenue support, but if we catch it, we keep it!

I have heard similar. I am keeping an eye on the Vacancy List with interest. I have heard some very interesting and unusual things recently. Could be good times ahead if you fancy a change of scenery. Might be a good time to apply for RPI when it next comes up. Hopefully they'll start the TM interviews soon so as I know where I stand.

 

[455driver]

I would have thought that showing how to pull away from a stop on slippery rails is as an important part of the training as stopping in the first place.

The programme didn't cover this though.

I have ridden on trains slipping from a standing start on level track and rising gradients and the outcome can vary considerably depending on driver technique and train type.What are the instructions/ guidelines to drivers on pulling away?

Any drivers on here wishing to comment on this?

I know one of the drivers that was on the filmed train and he was saying it was taking up to 20 minutes to get the train back up the hill into the station simple because it was slipping continuously, that really wouldnt have made good watching!

He also commented on the food provided by the Dartmoor rly especially the trifle, rather good would be the most appropriate phrase, he asked if he could go up there the next day (his day off) just for the food!

 

[CC 72100]

To be fair, I have heard this week from a reliable source that there is a sea-change in FGW's approach to Revenue, with some stations getting new booking offices and TVM's, lots of new ATE's, and a much more high-profile Revenue presence overall.

Indeed, today there was a revenue block all morning on Platform One in Paddington (totally unbarriered), first time I have ever known that. I believe it upset quite a few people!

It's probably to do with the new terms of the new franchise - no revenue support, but if we catch it, we keep it!

But, as you yourself have asked, will the management approach to its staff back this up, or contradict them?

 

[Flamingo]

But, as you yourself have asked, will the management approach to its staff back this up, or contradict them?

Well, it's got to be coming from high enough up the food-chain that there will (for a time, anyway) be a more hard-line approach.

 

[jimm]

It's odd how FCC is going for people in a big way - preferring where possible to take people down the byelaw route and then get a nice hefty fee from a pre-court settlement. Ditto Northern and others.

Meanwhile FGW seems to be doing the opposite - going for a more softly softly approach, with very infrequent stings that will have limited success in the long term.

I can understand telling TMs not to risk getting injured and being delayed (although I'd have hoped the solution would be to have more stings with police or RPIs on the services, such that people would always be worried that the ticket checks might be a little more thorough), but what about the other routes where it would appear fare evasion is easy?

Why wouldn't First group have a standard policy on revenue protection? And how much of the money it gets does it get to keep? I guess if it doesn't get to pocket the 'fines' then there's less incentive, and if it knows the franchise is nearly up - there's even less reason to care even if passengers must get upset when they see others get away with it. Some might even be tempted to try themselves.

Or is it that FGW doesn't have sufficient revenue staff levels, and isn't interested in recruiting new ones and giving them the necessary training?

Or haven't you got a clue what you're talking about?

FGW beefed up the number of RPIs considerably in late 2011 to early 2012, including setting up a team based at Worcester, who are all very well trained thank you, as are the RPIs elsewhere. They are working very hard to deal with problem areas such as ticketless travel between stations in the Vale of Evesham and Worcester - where both city stations are ungated. Station blocks, which were once in a blue moon events in many places, are now common, etc, etc.

A more pressing issue is the entirely random approach of many FGW train managers to checking tickets. Some are diligent about it, others just come down trains asking if anyone needs to buy a ticket, while some just stick to doing doors at stations.

I like the way the station manager had a filtering system to separate festival goers and commuters. Reading and Glastonbury take note!

The Wilderness Festival is on a rather different scale to those events, with about 15,000 people attending over the weekend, with about 5,000 of those arriving by rail this year, spread across a couple of days.

 

[maniacmartin]

Paying passengers could always bring their own private criminal prosecutions against fare evaders in theory if they could get the evader's name and address...

 

[jon0844]

Do I sense some RPI vs TM animosity here? RPIs blaming the lack of action by TVs, despite them being told not to upset passengers or risk delays?

Still, it's nice to know FGW is being more proactive. I was only commenting based on what has been written countless times on here and much of what I said was a question to ascertain the facts (although in all my FGW travel, I've never been checked by anyone other than a TM) but now it's made clear that FGW is clamping down.

Better late than never! Perhaps Flamingo saying that anything taken is kept might have been a teeny weeny bit of an incentive? B-)

 

[causton]

Indeed, today there was a revenue block all morning on Platform One in Paddington (totally unbarriered), first time I have ever known that. I believe it upset quite a few people

Nooo! How do we get to McDonalds now? :P

(Seriously though, that must be hard as the platform is not that wide to avoid mixing up people using the facilities along that wall with people who have just got on/off a train...!)

 

[Flamingo]

Nooo! How do we get to McDonalds now? :P

(Seriously though, that must be hard as the platform is not that wide to avoid mixing up people using the facilities along that wall with people who have just got on/off a train...!)

I didn't go down the city end, but there were temporary plastic barriers in place at the top end, I'd guess the same. There were a lot of staff, I know that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A more pressing issue is the entirely random approach of many FGW train managers to checking tickets. Some are diligent about it, others just come down trains asking if anyone needs to buy a ticket, while some just stick to doing doors at stations.
.

Some train managers are following the instructions of their line managers not to do anything that might cause delays, complaints or incident forms, as all of these cause paperwork and reflect on the line manager.

As I've posted on here repeatedly, the job of the Guard is to get the train in a safe and timely manner from A to B, and deal with anything that impinges on that. On a HST with slam doors and short (possibly unmanned) platforms, there is a hell of a lot that can impinge, resulting in a lot of nausea for said TM, including the risk of loss of job or grade. Tickets are what the TM does when they have nothing more important to do.

When any incident happens, if the TM says it occurred because they were doing (or distracted by a desire to do) revenue duties, they will be crucified. I have known more than one.

Maybe if Revenue had a more visible on-train presence this would help?

 

[jimm]

Some train managers are following the instructions of their line managers not to do anything that might cause delays, complaints or incident forms, as all of these cause paperwork and reflect on the line manager.

As I've posted on here repeatedly, the job of the Guard is to get the train in a safe and timely manner from A to B, and deal with anything that impinges on that. On a HST with slam doors and short (possibly unmanned) platforms, there is a hell of a lot that can impinge, resulting in a lot of nausea for said TM, including the risk of loss of job or grade. Tickets are what the TM does when they have nothing more important to do.

When any incident happens, if the TM says it occurred because they were doing (or distracted by a desire to do) revenue duties, they will be crucified. I have known more than one.

Maybe if Revenue had a more visible on-train presence this would help?

That's all very well, but there are plenty of services which stop at unstaffed stations, without ticket machines, in which situation the TM is the only person around who is going to sell tickets and protect revenue. And that's before we get to long-distance services where no checks are done, despite long gaps between stations and calls being made at ungated stations and interchanges en route where people can join from ungated lines.

HSTs and short platforms? There were a hell of a lot more headaches before selective door opening was introduced - like the clowns who ignored all the announcements and tried to open doors miles off the platforms when the bolts were released.

Still, it's nice to know FGW is being more proactive. I was only commenting based on what has been written countless times on here and much of what I said was a question to ascertain the facts (although in all my FGW travel, I've never been checked by anyone other than a TM) but now it's made clear that FGW is clamping down.

Better late than never! Perhaps Flamingo saying that anything taken is kept might have been a teeny weeny bit of an incentive? B-)

These RPIs have been out there since early last year, there's nothing new about it, but as noted, under the terms of the new contract, FGW keeps the money, though with the end of cap and collar revenue support, it will need every penny.

 

[Flamingo]

That's all very well, but there are plenty of services which stop at unstaffed stations, without ticket machines, in which situation the TM is the only person around who is going to sell tickets and protect revenue. And that's before we get to long-distance services where no checks are done, despite long gaps between stations and calls being made at ungated stations and interchanges en route where people can join from ungated lines.

HSTs and short platforms? There were a hell of a lot more headaches before selective door opening was introduced - like the clowns who ignored all the announcements and tried to open doors miles off the platforms when the bolts were released.

I remember before SDO was in place, but in some ways it was easier, as there was no requirement to open and close from specific points on the train, so it was quicker and easier.

Doing a full check on a HST takes a long time - most of my services have a maximum of 25 minutes between stations. On a full train, I might get two full carriages done in that time. Less if any issues like "can't pay won't pay".

If the company was that concerned, then HST's would see some revenue staff. I still don't need both hands to count the number of trains I have worked that revenue staff turned up on, since the beginning of this franchise. Every train they have been on they have found business. And I have NEVER seen revenue staff on-board east of Reading.

 

[londonboi]

Was that the last epIsoid on thursday night???

Thought it was ment be on for 12 weeks??

 

[martybabes]

...they will be crucified. I have known more than one.

Jesus, that's a bit harsh. Why not a written warning?

 

[1e10]

Was that the last epIsoid on thursday night???

Thought it was ment be on for 12 weeks??

Was changed to 8 episodes mid-series.

 

[D365]

Was changed to 8 episodes mid-series.

Because they were being optimistic but can't think of anything else to document

Haven't watched this last episode yet but all I've seen about the GWML upgrade is the new Reading depot with the OHLE in place. Nothing much about IEP or Crossrail either. Bit of a missed opportunity? Or was it covered last Thursday?

Track welding, the measurement train, doing up the brunel bridge, and a brief look at wheelslip training were interesting this time around.


Think the programme did a bad job on the wheelslip stuff though. From what I understand drivers are generally trained to brake defensively (early and light) during slippery conditions, rather than lock up the wheels as the programme seemed to suggest, though I do get why front-clears-back-brakes works.
Won't locked wheels cause flats and damage?

Sounds interesting even if it isn't all accurate. There's training videos on YouTube talking about braking and defensive driving if anyone is interested - one I remember talking about the Networker's WSP and differences from the slam-door stock and how one's driving style should be altered to suit.

 

[RJ]

I remember before SDO was in place, but in some ways it was easier, as there was no requirement to open and close from specific points on the train, so it was quicker and easier.

Doing a full check on a HST takes a long time - most of my services have a maximum of 25 minutes between stations. On a full train, I might get two full carriages done in that time. Less if any issues like "can't pay won't pay".

If the company was that concerned, then HST's would see some revenue staff. I still don't need both hands to count the number of trains I have worked that revenue staff turned up on, since the beginning of this franchise. Every train they have been on they have found business. And I have NEVER seen revenue staff on-board east of Reading.

I've travelled between Paddington and Cardiff quite a few times in the last few months and will be again in the next few weeks. On many of those occasions, there was no ticket check between Paddington and Newport, if at all. Once I did get on a train from Reading to Cardiff wearing a pink/purple/blue tie. The TM said I could sit in 1st. I changed by clothes during the course of the journey and when the TM next saw me on the approach to Cardiff, accused me of impersonating a member of staff. To which I just smiled and got off the train once the doors were released. Other than that though, ticket checks did seem to be quite thin on the ground.

Another day when I decided to visit Marlow, my ticket was checked on the train to Bourne End, again on the separate service to Marlow, back on the train to Maidenhead then the same member of staff boarded the Reading train and checked my ticket again. I think it's quite hit and miss.

At all TOCs I've worked at, guards on trains were never obliged to check tickets or get into conflict with fare evaders. I wonder if it is the case that any guard at any TOC is and for those who it isn't, why bother with the stress of it. The time spent arguing with a fare evader could be spent assisting a fare paying passenger in genuine need of assistance. As for delaying trains, I don't think that situation should ever be created over a fare dispute, whether it be simply because the fare evader refused to pay, or because of the continued challenging of a fare evader leading to a situation where it's necessary to get the police involved. I should think the job has enough responsibility without the stress of dealing with all that.

At the end of the day, safety is paramount and it's in nobody's interest to delay trains, so I don't understand why there are people in the grade that are prepared to compromise both, unless their personality is incompatible with their job and they have some incentive to make sales.

 

[Captain Chaos]

The important thing really is to strike the right balance. I cannot excuse those who simply choose not to do tickets at all. It's their decision and ultimately it's up to management to deal effectively with those individuals. I will always try and do what I can. That is really all you can do. Some people do expect miracles though (board right at the front on the busiest train from Crowthorne to Reading and expect you to get to them and sell them a ticket for instance. I'm quick. Very quick on an Avantix. Even I struggle to make the front coach.) You cannot please everyone all the time.

It's not just Guards either. Any revenue staff can be lazy and not bother. It's strange how I never hear anyone complain about the RPI not checking tickets and issuing a PF when he is present on the train. Wonder why that is...