The problems with the West

[Gathursty]

From reading the Ukraine/Putin thread, I was surprised by the amount of pro-Putin posts. From that, I assume there must be some grievances on here about how the West has or is behaving.

I'm not saying the West is a paragon of virtue. The West has done awful things. I'd like to know precisely what things some people on this forum have an issue with when it comes to the West, whether it is political, cultural, historical etc...

To show I don't think the West gets it right all the time, some of the things I have an issue with are:

1) How we treated tribes across the world on first contact (would like to know about how Russia handled native Siberians and further East though)
2) Looking up to 'betters' - even now there are people to whom we are deferential. It's one thing to respect someone but different to looking up to someone because of their title or wealth alone. (Not sure if this is a thing in Russia)
3) Borders - The Louisiana Purchase, Sykes-Picot Agreement and no doubt others put straight lines through lands that had far more complex issues than a 30cm ruler and pencil could solve. Conflicts in Israel, Kashmir, Kurdistan etc... linger to this day. Native Americans have small tracts of land which were reluctantly handed back.

 

[GS250]

I don't think it's a case of anyone being 'pro Putin'. More a case of having empathy for why he feels the need to act as he presently does.

But...there's been something of an ill feeling developing towards Western leadership and those described by some as the 'Elite'. And for some time too. There's been a distrust of the banking system and economic 'experts' ever since the 'credit crunch' of 2008. When a contrived line of denial of an impending recession swiftly morphed into panic as some customers were told they may not be able to withdraw their own money from their own bank account. That short period in history defined a number of mindsets over the next decade or so. The establishment could officially no longer be trusted.

Also...there has been something of a breakdown as to how people debate each other. 'Pigeon holing' of individuals based on particular viewpoints has led to much resentment and contributed to the aforementioned breakdown of debate.

At the very least, in the West we still have a relatively high amount of freedom. However...there's rightly or wrongly, a feeling that these are slowly but surely being eroded and that so called libertarian Western leadership is compliant in all this.

 

[matacaster]

The big problems in the west are
- democracies take forever to make decisions.
- concensus always results in least worst option being taken
- wokeness is so bad now that someone somewhere will be offended by anything said or done
- the interests of the majority are frequently overlooked
-safety is taken to extremes so that useful things don't happen because of cost
--self-appointed activists get undue prominence in the media looking for a story
- there is a fear of war in 'soft' Western countries (politicians can't stomach body bags) which is exploited by dictators (Putin will laugh at sanctions, so will Chinese leader)

I am not a fan of Putin or any other dictator, but the west has gone really soft and unless it gets its act together and invests in its military to counter the dictators they will win. Our defence budget is huge, but we only have a tiny fraction of Russia armed forces.

Its great spending loads of money on NHS etc, but if we get overrun by the likes of Putin it won't count for much.

 

[GS250]

I am not a fan of Putin or any other dictator, but the west has gone really soft and unless it gets its act together and invests in its military to counter the dictators they will win. Our defence budget is huge, but we only have a tiny fraction of Russia armed forces.

Its great spending loads of money on NHS etc, but if we get overrun by the likes of Putin it won't count for much.

I agree that some European countries especially should be spending a bit more on their military. Constantly relying on the USA to do all the heavy lifting is all well and good when you have a strong America. I've no doubt it still has the World's most powerful military but as a society it weaker than ever.

A huge issue though, is that Western military recruitment is providing to be quite difficult these days. All very good investing in the kit, but you need people to operate it.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I think the big issue with Ukraine is that it feels like the "West" is overextending itself. Historically, Ukraine was always part of Russia, or at least heavily under its sphere of influence. For them to now come under increasing influence from the EU is bound to rile Putin up.

To use an analogy, let's imagine Kent seceded from the UK back in the 1990s. It has gradually begun to be influenced by European nations who have a very different set of values to ours (for example, the current values holding sway in Russia). I think we'd all be a little concerned at how somewhere we'd always considered part of our country was being influenced by external forces.

Now that does not justify the use of military force. Both Ukraine in the real world, and Kent in my hypothetical world, are independent states. If they want closer ties to a particular set of countries, they have every right to build those relationships. But it's important to be empathetic here, and try to see things from Russian eyes. Some seem to think Russia is trying to create an empire, and is on the front foot - in reality I think their motivations are much more defensive. To reiterate - that doesn't mean they're right to invade Ukraine, just that it isn't quite as black and white as some seem to think.

 

[biko]

The big problems in the west are
- democracies take forever to make decisions.
- concensus always results in least worst option being taken
- wokeness is so bad now that someone somewhere will be offended by anything said or done
- the interests of the majority are frequently overlooked
-safety is taken to extremes so that useful things don't happen because of cost
--self-appointed activists get undue prominence in the media looking for a story
- there is a fear of war in 'soft' Western countries (politicians can't stomach body bags) which is exploited by dictators (Putin will laugh at sanctions, so will Chinese leader)

Generally a good summary, but I don't agree with including wokeness in this list as a general problem in the west. Living in the Netherlands, it doesn't dominate debates and we make fun of people in the UK and mostly the US obsessing over it.

The thing I am missing in the list is the obsession of media trying to be impartial leading to the situation where they see everything as opinion and don't present facts anymore. I see this mostly with public broadcasters, such as the BBC. They also don't question the people in the west praising Putin and present it as if everything he says is just another opinion while most of it is just nonsense or misses a lot of context.

 

[Doppelganger]

I think the big issue with Ukraine is that it feels like the "West" is overextending itself. Historically, Ukraine was always part of Russia, or at least heavily under its sphere of influence. For them to now come under increasing influence from the EU is bound to rile Putin up.

To use an analogy, let's imagine Kent seceded from the UK back in the 1990s. It has gradually begun to be influenced by European nations who have a very different set of values to ours (for example, the current values holding sway in Russia). I think we'd all be a little concerned at how somewhere we'd always considered part of our country was being influenced by external forces.

Now that does not justify the use of military force. Both Ukraine in the real world, and Kent in my hypothetical world, are independent states. If they want closer ties to a particular set of countries, they have every right to build those relationships. But it's important to be empathetic here, and try to see things from Russian eyes. Some seem to think Russia is trying to create an empire, and is on the front foot - in reality I think their motivations are much more defensive. To reiterate - that doesn't mean they're right to invade Ukraine, just that it isn't quite as black and white as some seem to think.

What?

Surely it is for the people of Kent to decide how they identify? What a stupid comparison.

Ukraine is an independent country and its people are a distinct ethnic and culturally separate group to the Russians.

Parts of what is now Ukraine has been influenced by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Russian Empire (then Soviet Union) as well as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but have always kept their identity. Despite trying to be Polonised, Russified, Germanised or Magyarised.

It is for Ukraine to decide its own path, and sure Russia see Ukraine as its stomping ground, but I don't see this any different to the revolutions of 1848 and the Spring of nations in a bid for self determination. Those revolutions were put down, but the spirit of independence lived on!

 

[NorthOxonian]

What?

Surely it is for the people of Kent to decide how they identify? What a stupid comparison.

Ukraine is an independent country and its people are a distinct ethnic and culturally separate group to the Russians.

Parts of what is now Ukraine has been influenced by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Russian Empire (then Soviet Union) as well as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but have always kept their identity. Despite trying to be Polonised, Russified, Germanised or Magyarised.

It is for Ukraine to decide its own path, and sure Russia see Ukraine as its stomping ground, but I don't see this any different to the revolutions of 1848 and the Spring of nations in a bid for self determination. Those revolutions were put down, but the spirit of independence lived on!

Well, yes. As I say in my final paragraph, Ukraine is an independent nation and has the right to set its own foreign policy, and the right to decide with which nations it has close ties. But I think we have to try and see things from both sides here - and from the Russian point of view, increasing western (and particularly EU) influence in Ukraine feels like an incursion into their heartland.

Again, that doesn't justify Russia using force to invade parts of Ukraine: that's something which is obviously wrong. But it is an attempt to explain why Russia's acting the way it is - I don't think it's just blind aggression.

 

[birchesgreen]

Whats wrong with the West? I'll stick to the UK though its applicable to other places to to a lesser and greater extent. There is a moral vacuum at the core of society from top to bottom. So many people, the majority, are selfish and only out for themselves. Its most notable at the top of course, imagine politicians taking money from a belligerent foreign power? Thats treason isn't it? Well no more, just seems to be every day business.

 

[daodao]

Ukraine is an independent country and its people are a distinct ethnic and culturally separate group to the Russians.

The Ukraine and its inhabitants are not clearly distinct from Russia, and therein lies the problem. The name literally and actually means "borderlands". Leaving aside the Crimea, which is a former Tatar territory and is not historically Ukrainian, there is a gradation across the Ukraine from east to west regarding identity differences from Russia, related to the previous history of these lands. This was recognised by the former government led by President Yanukovich (who was from the Donetsk oblast), but which subsequent Kiev regimes have ignored to their cost.

 

[SargeNpton]

I think the big issue with Ukraine is that it feels like the "West" is overextending itself. Historically, Ukraine was always part of Russia, or at least heavily under its sphere of influence. For them to now come under increasing influence from the EU is bound to rile Putin up.

Ukraine may have been historically under Russia's sphere of influence but the people of that country have always heavily resented it. With the demise of the USSR they were able to exercise self-determination for the first time in living memory and have no wish to return to being a vassal state of their eastern neighbours again.

My great uncle was a Ukrainian exile who came to England at the end of WW2 and could not return home whilst it was still under Russian control. Unfortunately, he died before he could see his country become free.

 

[GS250]

Whats wrong with the West? I'll stick to the UK though its applicable to other places to to a lesser and greater extent. There is a moral vacuum at the core of society from top to bottom. So many people, the majority, are selfish and only out for themselves. Its most notable at the top of course, imagine politicians taking money from a belligerent foreign power? Thats treason isn't it? Well no more, just seems to be every day business.

Agree with this to a point. I think those who are considered selfish come form all kinds of background and are not confined to the stereotypical 'Tory boy type'. However, there's a lot of decent people out there in the UK still. Sadly...we do tend to give airtime to the very worst of society.

 

[Doppelganger]

The Ukraine and its inhabitants are not clearly distinct from Russia, and therein lies the problem. The name literally and actually means "borderlands". Leaving aside the Crimea, which is a former Tatar territory and is not historically Ukrainian, there is a gradation across the Ukraine from east to west regarding identity differences from Russia, related to the previous history of these lands. This was recognised by the former government led by President Yanukovich (who was from the Donetsk oblast), but which subsequent Kiev regimes have ignored to their cost.

A great deal of Ukrainians would disagree.

One thing which separates Russians from Ukrainians is the language. Although similar, it is not the same and even the Ukrainian version of the Cyrillic alphabet is different.

There are many traditions which differ too across the country. Try and compare a Ukrainian from L'viv with one in the east of the country, it is true they are different, but this is down to the Russians very aggressive Russification which went on from the days of the Russian empire, right through to the break up of the Soviet Union

 

[daodao]

One thing which separates Russians from Ukrainians is the language. Although similar, it is not the same and even the Ukrainian version of the Cyrillic alphabet is different.

However, many "Ukrainians" speak Russian rather than Ukrainian, in the same way that many Welsh people only speak English.

For example, according to the 2001 census, in the Donetsk Oblast, Wikipedia states that the Ukrainian ethnicity was 56.9% of the population and the Russian ethnicity was 38.2% of the population, but the native language of 74.9% of the population was Russian, compared with 24.1% Ukrainian, as 58.7% of people of Ukrainian ethnicity considered Russian to be their native language. Incidentally, Donetsk was founded by a steelmaker from Merthyr Tydfil named John Hughes, and it was named Yuzovka after him before the Russian Revolution.

Donetsk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Doppelganger]

However, many "Ukrainians" speak Russian rather than Ukrainian, in the same way that many Welsh people only speak English.

For example, according to the 2001 census, in the Donetsk Oblast, Wikipedia states that the Ukrainian ethnicity was 56.9% of the population and the Russian ethnicity was 38.2% of the population, but the native language of 74.9% of the population was Russian, compared with 24.1% Ukrainian, as 58.7% of people of Ukrainian ethnicity considered Russian to be their native language. Incidentally, Donetsk was founded by a steelmaker from Merthyr Tydfil named John Hughes, and it was named Yuzovka after him before the Russian Revolution.

Donetsk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Like the Italian Americans or Polish Americans who can't speak the language of their parents and grandparents?

They can never access the culture in the same way. This is not like the Welsh, as sadly English has been the main language of Wales for a long time and it's very much the fault of the English, just as it was in Ireland with their efforts to anglicise the population. This is exactly what the Russians were doing throughout the empire years and through to the USSR.