The outlook for today's youngsters

[EM2]

I had an interesting chat with three young lads at work last night, who'd got the wrong train and were waiting for a lift.
They were all 17, two were doing A-levels at grammar school, one had been expelled and was working in retail. Of the two still at school, one wanted to go into mechanical engineering, and one into physical rehabilitation.
But the one thing that come out of our discussions was that they were basically resigned to dead-end, zero-hour, low-paid jobs, all because they didn't expect to get good grades in their exams, won't get into university and so would not get a degree.
And it seems that everything that they've looked at as a career (rather than just a job) needs a degree.
These lads were not the no-hopers so beloved of the tabloids, they were not thick by any means, they talked about their experiences and their fears intelligently and made their points well.
The one who was interested in engineering I gave a steer towards the NR Apprenticeship Scheme, so hopefully he might find something there.
I'd guess this isn't unique to three lads in north Kent, so it's quite depressing that there's already a sizeable section of our youth that think that they're already destined for the scrapheap.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Yet ironically people I know with degrees have often found them little use in the working world and people with four years of extra work experience at the same age can often be in a much stronger position.

Yes you get four years of dead end jobs while Uni students are drinking and having fun, but you earn money not debt.

A lot of careers places will idolise having a degree, but in the real world it is not often a big advantage, particularly if it is a "traditional" subject, rather than one connected to a specific job.

I have a degree in geography and if you believe all the bumph I got before signing up, there is a world of adventurous jobs out there. In actuality, aside from teaching geography, there were very few viable options I found and those I applied for were enormously oversubscribed.

Now I am training as a dispensing optician and half the folk on my course have degrees that never worked out for them while the other half are in exactly the same position, starting work after A-level, but typically a few years younger.

 

[northwichcat]

I have a degree in geography and if you believe all the bumph I got before signing up, there is a world of adventurous jobs out there. In actuality, aside from teaching geography, there were very few viable options I found and those I applied for were enormously oversubscribed.

What's forgotten is you learn a lot of skills from university. When I did my GCSE English I wasn't capable of writing a final year project report of the same standard as I could when in my final year of university and I didn't do an English degree or even a degree which required me to write a lot of written reports.

Even if you just did the first year and dropped out but stayed in student accommodation with strangers you'd have learnt quite a bit about how to get on with other people chosen at random - something an employer might like, even if they don't like the fact you gave up on something after 1 year.

Although, in the case of going to work in all these exciting adventurous jobs I can see why having a Geography degree may not be an advantage. If you want a tour guide to work in Spain then speaking Spanish, be organised and having excellent communication skills will probably be much higher of the listed of required capabilities than having a Geography qualification, so someone with an English degree who can speak Spanish might get the job ahead of you.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I guess it is a Catch 22. When you have a degree, employers demand work experience.

If you have work experience, employers want a degree.

 

[northwichcat]

I guess it is a Catch 22. When you have a degree, employers demand work experience.

If you have work experience, employers want a degree.

Ideally they want both. While some managers say a degree isn't required they are more easily impressed by a CV which mentions one. However, from my experience there was a shortage of employers who were willing to offer students work placements. I would have liked one when I was doing a degree but couldn't get one and a number of other people were in the same situation.

 

[OneTrackMind]

Interesting thread.

I like to think I'm the start of a new generation that has a new attitude to learning.

I never had any intention or aspiration to go to University, so I didn't.

My intake would of also been the first to endure £9k per year fees.

So instead I got a training contract with a local firm based on some pretty poor A-Level grades. I qualified as a Chartered Accountant at 21.

Nobody can ever take that qualification away from me (unless I go bankrupt); you'd be amazed where you can go on the railway with a finance background, as sitting behind a desk really is not for me.

4 years experience, no degree but no student debt, admittedly, probably as not as many life skills as I'd like, but still a tonne of cash in the bank to go traveling with and get them!

 

[underbank]

So instead I got a training contract with a local firm based on some pretty poor A-Level grades. I qualified as a Chartered Accountant at 21.

I did likewise, I knew I'd get poor A level grades so I never even applied. But got a trainee accountant job in a local small private accountancy practice. Hard work studying alongside working full time, and very low pay for 4 years, but came out of it as a qualified accountant.

University/degree isn't the only way of getting a decent career/profession - plenty of other options exist for those willing to work hard. Unfortunately, career advice is generally poor, so you have to research things yourself to look for opportunities outside the Uni route. I think a lot of the problem is that schools are too focussed on getting their pupils into Uni's that they don't give any advice to those who aren't going - they seem to perpetuate the myth that you've failed in your education if you don't go to uni.

 

[Harbon 1]

I did likewise, I knew I'd get poor A level grades so I never even applied. But got a trainee accountant job in a local small private accountancy practice. Hard work studying alongside working full time, and very low pay for 4 years, but came out of it as a qualified accountant.

University/degree isn't the only way of getting a decent career/profession - plenty of other options exist for those willing to work hard. Unfortunately, career advice is generally poor, so you have to research things yourself to look for opportunities outside the Uni route. I think a lot of the problem is that schools are too focused on getting their pupils into Uni's that they don't give any advice to those who aren't going - they seem to perpetuate the myth that you've failed in your education if you don't go to uni.

I agree with this. At my secondary school, nearing the end of our first year if A-Levels, everyone was taught how to write a personal statement, unless we didn't want to go to uni, of which there were 10 of us. To be fair we were taught how to write a professional CV and interview techniques which have helped.

Now, the vast majority of my school friends are starting their third years at university. A couple of them I can see why they went (Law/Medicine and will be staying on for a further year or two) as some professions definitely need that knowledge, the others however are doing subjects I could learn by reading, and a 'degree' I do in my spare time (history & photography). The history student has even said he liked doing hands on work at his beer-money job!

Me? A failed physics AS and revision for my A-Levels which consisted of reading Class 50s In Operation - very good read, I thoroughly recommend it - and now I'm sat at 20 with an apprenticeship at Bombardier, with a healthy sum of money in comparison, job and work experience, shift experience, and a nice motor.

Prospects aren't that bad, but schools need to put more of an emphasis on apprenticeships, because if you're not going to be a lawyer, doctor, teacher, vet etc, whats the point if it can be learnt whilst getting paid? Plus if I want to, my company will pay for me to attend uni!

 

[RichmondCommu]

I had an interesting chat with three young lads at work last night, who'd got the wrong train and were waiting for a lift.
They were all 17, two were doing A-levels at grammar school, one had been expelled and was working in retail. Of the two still at school, one wanted to go into mechanical engineering, and one into physical rehabilitation.
But the one thing that come out of our discussions was that they were basically resigned to dead-end, zero-hour, low-paid jobs, all because they didn't expect to get good grades in their exams, won't get into university and so would not get a degree.

Were they able to explain why they didn't expect to get good grades in their exams and indeed why one of them had been expelled from school? I'm just curious that's all.

 

[Abpj17]

I guess it is a Catch 22. When you have a degree, employers demand work experience.

If you have work experience, employers want a degree.

You need both and it's entirely possible to have both through a combination of summer jobs and internships. Even more so if you go for a degree with which includes a year's work placement (which you get paid for). Or the route mentioned here were you get a job with a training contract / diploma as part of it.

 

[Butts]

I think a lot depends on where your degree comes from as they are "two a penny" these days not necessarily the subject either for certain jobs.

This may be wrong but there is still a cache associated with a 1st from Oxbridge, St Andrews, Imperial, LSE, Durham et al....

A former Poly or College of Higher Education does not quite measure up

 

[125Forever]

I think a lot depends on where your degree comes from as they are "two a penny" these days not necessarily the subject either for certain jobs.

This may be wrong but there is still a cache associated with a 1st from Oxbridge, St Andrews, Imperial, LSE, Durham et al....

A former Poly or College of Higher Education does not quite measure up

Very true, and there are those 'Universities' that are not fit for purpose - those that cave in to the demands of certain sections of the community and demand 'nothing' degrees like Liberal Studies.

Take a look at what's happening across the Atlantic - Universities there are bound over by extremist Social Justice Warriors/Black Lives Matter etc. and it is a case of a small segment dictating the policy. Anything they don't agree with is deemed as evil - never mind the rest of the fee-paying students who just want to learn and get a decent degree and get on with their lives. The same is slowly happening here - Cardiff University bans Germaine Greer because of her stance on Transgender people rather than let students challenge her. Milo Yiannopoulos of Breitbart is banned from campuses and has been blacklisted by the BBC because he is deemed ' a troll' for not towing the liberal line. Universities should challenge conceptions and encourage critical thinking - they should not bow in fear just because Trigglypuff and co. are having a bad day.

These three young boys that the OP mentions would do well to get into an apprenticeship, if possible, and also to get as many strings to their arrows as possible - get qualified, network and try to do a LinkedIn page where companies can contact people directly.

 

[Iskra]

Unless your parents are very well connected or you're at Oxford or Cambridge, you need a degree and some work experience to land a decent job. It was my work experience that I got at while at university, not my higher education that got me through the door at my current job and I then had to work myself up to the level I'm at now.

Part of the problem though, is how early students have to start making incredibly important decisions that can really limit your career options, without that ever being explained. I didn't know what I wanted to do (I originally thought law, but doing A-level Law put me off), so I did my first degree in History which kept my options open while still learning useful skills; critical thinking, how to analyse evidence, how to write persuasively and eloquently or how to weigh-up arguments in an objective fashion. Even the modules I took at university were crucially important, I could have chosen loads of Ancient or Medieval options which wouldn't have been much use outside Academia, but instead I chose mainly Modern History, most of which involved economics which is incredibly useful. My History degree then opened the door and got me a bursary to do a MA at the highly regarded Management School at my university.

That said, for a long time I did want to be an Officer in the forces, which was a great ambition and something I geared myself towards by being in the RAF cadets, but then I failed the medical and that plan was foiled rather quickly.

...I enjoyed university, but I can't help but think that if I had have left education at 18 I would still be in a similar position now. I've got a respectable job, with a company that looks after me, although it is hard work. University is not the answer for everyone, and I actually think it's extremely damaging sending half the population to university, but that's a thread in itself.

The 3 lads in the OP shouldn't lose hope, if they're good they'll get on just fine wherever they end up.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

A former Poly or College of Higher Education does not quite measure up

Conversely there are some former technical colleges that are UK leaders in their degree field.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Very true, and there are those 'Universities' that are not fit for purpose - those that cave in to the demands of certain sections of the community and demand 'nothing' degrees like Liberal Studies.

Take a look at what's happening across the Atlantic - Universities there are bound over by extremist Social Justice Warriors/Black Lives Matter etc. and it is a case of a small segment dictating the policy. Anything they don't agree with is deemed as evil - never mind the rest of the fee-paying students who just want to learn and get a decent degree and get on with their lives. The same is slowly happening here - Cardiff University bans Germaine Greer because of her stance on Transgender people rather than let students challenge her. Milo Yiannopoulos of Breitbart is banned from campuses and has been blacklisted by the BBC because he is deemed ' a troll' for not towing the liberal line. Universities should challenge conceptions and encourage critical thinking - they should not bow in fear just because Trigglypuff and co. are having a bad day.

These three young boys that the OP mentions would do well to get into an apprenticeship, if possible, and also to get as many strings to their arrows as possible - get qualified, network and try to do a LinkedIn page where companies can contact people directly.

None of your second paragraph is relevant to this thread. Then again, you're defending Milo Yiannopoulos so I'm not surprised you're ranting about it...

Not all viewpoints are academically equivalent in value. Needless inflammatory language and rhetoric as commonly practised by Greer and Yiannopoulos, which are designed purely to upset people, are not just neutral opinions being stated in a vacuum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of your second paragraph is relevant to this thread. Then again, you're defending Milo Yiannopoulos so I'm not surprised you're ranting about it...

Is he?

I personally take the view that opinions should not be silenced - quite the opposite - they should be expressed and challenged.

Having Googled the name concerned - it certainly would be better that his opinions are expressed and then vocally challenged rather than allowed to bubble quietly under the surface. As they are certainly unsavoury to me.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Is he?

I personally take the view that opinions should not be silenced - quite the opposite - they should be expressed and challenged.

Having Googled the name concerned - it certainly would be better that his opinions are expressed and then vocally challenged rather than allowed to bubble quietly under the surface. As they are certainly unsavoury to me.

He gets challenged all the time.

 

[GatwickDepress]

He gets challenged all the time.

Indeed. I wonder you've ever read We Hunted the Mammoth who do a pretty good job of challenging his views.

 

[yorkie]

Unless your parents are very well connected or you're at Oxford or Cambridge, you need a degree and some work experience to land a decent job. It was my work experience that I got at while at university, not my higher education that got me through the door at my current job and I then had to work myself up to the level I'm at now. ...

Same here, but I'm not sure that you need a degree to land a decent job, but then what is a decent job?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had an interesting chat with three young lads at work last night, who'd got the wrong train and were waiting for a lift.
They were all 17, two were doing A-levels at grammar school, one had been expelled and was working in retail. Of the two still at school, one wanted to go into mechanical engineering, and one into physical rehabilitation.
But the one thing that come out of our discussions was that they were basically resigned to dead-end, zero-hour, low-paid jobs, all because they didn't expect to get good grades in their exams, won't get into university and so would not get a degree.
And it seems that everything that they've looked at as a career (rather than just a job) needs a degree.
These lads were not the no-hopers so beloved of the tabloids, they were not thick by any means, they talked about their experiences and their fears intelligently and made their points well.
The one who was interested in engineering I gave a steer towards the NR Apprenticeship Scheme, so hopefully he might find something there.
I'd guess this isn't unique to three lads in north Kent, so it's quite depressing that there's already a sizeable section of our youth that think that they're already destined for the scrapheap.

Part of the problem is that there appears to be a suggestion that the majority of the population can go on to do the sort of jobs that require degrees, but that just isn't realistic. It creates an imbalance and there are too many people applying for some jobs, while there are shortages in others.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Indeed. I wonder you've ever read We Hunted the Mammoth who do a pretty good job of challenging his views.

I haven't, but I've heard it's very good!

 

[Richard_B]

I am part way through doing a "good" degree and a top tier university and don't really know what I want to work in after uni, but when I look at job sites, either for part time jobs or occasionally to think about the sorts of things I could do long term it seems that for many, many things, you need to have experience to get the job but can't get the experience because you've not had the job! I wonder if this has changed particularly since my parents entered the world of work. It seems to me that my paths forward would have to be onto some sort of grad placement scheme / internships but I can't afford for those to be un/barely paid which they often are. So I feel I am going to be in a catch 22. However when I talk to my dad about this he is much more philosophical and relaxed about it, saying that Iwill be and opportunities will happen and your path will work itself out in ways you didn't expect

 

[EM2]

Were they able to explain why they didn't expect to get good grades in their exams and indeed why one of them had been expelled from school? I'm just curious that's all.

They're simply not educationally gifted enough, which they freely admit. For example, the one who wants to go into engineering got A* in GCSE Maths but really struggling with A-Level Maths.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He gets challenged all the time.

Good

My point was that I would not ban him from speaking just because I find his views unpalatable.

 

[AlterEgo]

Good

My point was that I would not ban him from speaking just because I find his views unpalatable.

It's altogether different when he tweets celebrities openly racist and sexist abuse and encourages his followers to "pile on", however.

 

[RichmondCommu]

They're simply not educationally gifted enough, which they freely admit. For example, the one who wants to go into engineering got A* in GCSE Maths but really struggling with A-Level Maths.

I get really cross with things like this because in my view the state education system, especially in GCSE Maths is letting children down. My youngest daughter sat her Maths GCSE over four years a go and my wife and I thought that the mock papers were far too easy. From what I understand things will be a lot too tougher for those children taking their GCSE's in Maths next summer and that can only be a good thing.

At graduate level I'm astonished at the number of graduates that are unable to do mental arithmetic and have no grasp whatsoever of percentages. So much so that we now ask graduates to take a Maths test before they are taken on.

 

[northwichcat]

They're simply not educationally gifted enough, which they freely admit. For example, the one who wants to go into engineering got A* in GCSE Maths but really struggling with A-Level Maths.

Sounds like either someone who's capable of learning the theory but not applying it or someone who can't motivate themselves to do maths.

 

[Welly]

I was a schoolboy in the 1980s and remember unemployment level being 3 million people, that made me feel resigned to an adulthood of just about surviving in whatever job that has not disappeared.

Since then I have noticed that there is a whole load of jobs and career opportunities that simply did not exist back when I left school and I dare say that the same 17 year old lads will notice a similar trend by the time they reach 45.

 

[northwichcat]

My youngest daughter sat her Maths GCSE over four years a go and my wife and I thought that the mock papers were far too easy.

Unless it's changed since I was at school Maths was the one subject that had three tiers of paper of GCSE - a Foundation tier (which the brightest year 9 pupils could have got almost full marks on), an intermediate tier paper and a higher tier paper.

I've just found the Pure 3 paper I would have done for A Level Maths: http://mei.org.uk/files/2000papers/p303ju.pdf Maybe at some point I'll have to see how much of it I can still remember!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Unless it's changed since I was at school Maths was the one subject that had three tiers of paper of GCSE - a Foundation tier (which the brightest year 9 pupils could have got almost full marks on), an intermediate tier paper and a higher tier paper.

Yes that's right and in our opinion the higher tier paper was too easy and did not test pupils sufficiently, and more importantly not prepare them for things to come.

 

[roversfan2001]

From what I understand things will be a lot too tougher for those children taking their GCSE's in Maths next summer and that can only be a good thing.

Is it a good idea to place a lot of stress on children in Years 10 and 11 because someone in the Government decided it was a good idea to force 15-16 year olds to sit an entire month of exams; when the vast majority of things learnt will never be used outside of a classroom?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless it's changed since I was at school Maths was the one subject that had three tiers of paper of GCSE - a Foundation tier (which the brightest year 9 pupils could have got almost full marks on), an intermediate tier paper and a higher tier paper.

It changed a bit ago (2008 I think?) to the standard two tier system (Foundation: Grades G-E, Higher: Grades D-A*).