The optimum GB network

[The exile]

The GWR network might make more sense with a 4 track mainline London-Bristol TM (6 track to Didcot), splitting to go to Cardiff or Exeter etc Maybe Bath would be on a branchline instead of the mainline.

Thus at a stroke removing one of the principal destinations from the “main line”. Seems to me that “optimisation” risks repeating the Beeching duplicate routes error - namely forgetting that there are also intermediate markets to be served. Routes are only truly “duplicates” where origin, destination and any intermediates of one are all within walking distance of their equivalents on the other.

 

[Zomboid]

How many of the main lines out of London are six track?

Two immediately spring to mind

Marylebone/Baker Street to Wembley Park - though that's three parallel routes, Chiltern, Metropolitan and Jubilee.
Euston to Watford being 4*WCML and 2*DC lines.

Others?

Unless you count bits like Waterloo to Clapham or London Bridge to Bermondsey which are really parallel multiple track routes, there's not much.

Some places are big now partly because the railway went there, rather than having been big centres before the railway. If someone had been planning stuff centrally then things like Northampton being on a loop off the main line wouldn't have happened.

 

[PTR 444]

If someone had been planning stuff centrally then things like Northampton being on a loop off the main line wouldn't have happened.

Or the Northampton Loop would have formed the start of a centrally planned Midland route to Market Harborough, Leicester and beyond.

 

[D6130]

Or the Northampton Loop would have formed the start of a centrally planned Midland route to Market Harborough, Leicester and beyond.

.....which it did in a way.

 

[PTR 444]

.....which it did in a way.

True, although the later Midland route to St Pancras via Bedford would probably never have been built in a centrally planned system.

 

[D6130]

True, although the later Midland route to St Pancras via Bedford would probably never have been built in a centrally planned system.

Likewise the other end of the Midland network....the Settle & Carlisle.

 

[Zomboid]

True, although the later Midland route to St Pancras via Bedford would probably never have been built in a centrally planned system.

How would Bedford and the other MML settlements south of Market Harborough have been served in this scenario? Were they even big enough to be worth serving at the time? Would they be on an alternative ECML, with the centrally planned ECML running via Cambridge?

I imagine things might be a bit less London-centric in a lot of ways.

 

[sad1e]

I think the varsity line would have been a lot more major in this reality, maybe quad tracked and probably would have got to the welsh ports to be used as a major freight artery like intended

 

[RT4038]

I think the varsity line would have been a lot more major in this reality, maybe quad tracked and probably would have got to the welsh ports to be used as a major freight artery like intended

Has there ever been much in East Anglia that was exported through the Welsh ports? Such as?

 

[PTR 444]

How would Bedford and the other MML settlements south of Market Harborough have been served in this scenario? Were they even big enough to be worth serving at the time? Would they be on an alternative ECML, with the centrally planned ECML running via Cambridge?

I imagine things might be a bit less London-centric in a lot of ways.

Perhaps they would have been served by branch lines from the WCML. Alternatively, a combined Midland/WCML route could have run via Luton and Bedford to Northampton, since there was no need to serve Milton Keynes at the time.

While the above route is admittedly less direct for London - Birmingham, this flow could also have been served by another railway running roughly parallel to the A41 road (London - Watford - Tring - Aylesbury - Bicester - Banbury - Warwick - Solihull - Birmingham).

 

[Class15]

Felixstowe to Manchester etc. container trains would not be going through London for a start!

 

[Zomboid]

Perhaps they would have been served by branch lines from the WCML. Alternatively, a combined Midland/WCML route could have run via Luton and Bedford to Northampton, since there was no need to serve Milton Keynes at the time.

While the above route is admittedly less direct for London - Birmingham, this flow could also have been served by another railway running roughly parallel to the A41 road (London - Watford - Tring - Aylesbury - Bicester - Banbury - Warwick - Solihull - Birmingham).

So basically the M1 (which does pass MK anyhow). And an alternate route that largely follows the M40...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Apr 2025 ==

There may be fewer or different ports to serve as well, since some of them were heavily promoted by the railway companies

 

[PTR 444]

So basically the M1

The M1 doesn’t go past Bedford.

And an alternate route that largely follows the M40...

Except that the M40 doesn’t go past Aylesbury, Tring or Watford. If the London - Birmingham motorway went that way, it would probably be numbered M41.

 

[Zomboid]

Ok, yeah. Bedford isn't *that* far from the M1, but it's not on top of it.
And perhaps the alternative would follow more the M40/Chiltern line but with Oxford served en route to Birmingham rather than as a branch.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

And perhaps the alternative would follow more the M40/Chiltern line but with Oxford served en route to Birmingham rather than as a branch.

The original route from Paddington to Birmingham went via Reading, Oxford and Banbury. The lines from Banbury to Princes Risborough and from High Wycombe to Old Oak Common were much later developments at the turn of the century. That was a construction project in parallel with the Great Central's London extension.

Those familiar with the M40 will be aware of the 90 degree bend north of Oxford. That allegedly is the join between the M40 to Oxford and the unbuilt M41 via Watford, Tring and Aylesbury.

 

[PTR 444]

The original route from Paddington to Birmingham went via Reading, Oxford and Banbury. The lines from Banbury to Princes Risborough and from High Wycombe to Old Oak Common were much later developments at the turn of the century. That was a construction project in parallel with the Great Central's London extension.

Those familiar with the M40 will be aware of the 90 degree bend north of Oxford. That allegedly is the join between the M40 to Oxford and the unbuilt M41 via Watford, Tring and Aylesbury.

I thought the bend existed to ensure the motorway was routed well away from Otmoor and Shabbington Wood?

 

[Zomboid]

Motorways might be a bit of a distraction, but actually...
The "new" WCML will run from London to Birmingham via Oxford, then on to Manchester and the Lancashire conurbation. Largely following the M40 and M6.
Meanwhile the new "ECML" is more of an up the middle affair, going via Luton, Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, and Sheffield to Leeds, pretty much as the M1 does, and then onwards to Newcastle and Scotland.
A secondary route to the actual east coast goes from the "ECML" at Luton towards Bedford, Peterborough and the Lincolnshire coast, where it meets another radial line from London which goes via Cambridge (kind of like the M11/ A14/ A1(M)).
Obviously lots of fair sized places miss out, but many of them didn't exist or weren't notable when the centralised planning authority made these decisions...

 

[MarlowDonkey]

A consideration of the early railway builders was that their lines should be flat and straight. That seemed to predicate the London & Birmingham following the path of the Grand Union Canal, although following a canal can lose the straightness feature. Taking a level and straight route is probably why Brunel took the GWR to the north west after leaving Reading. It then follows the Thames and cuts across to the Vale of the White Horse before heading to Bath. The M4 on the other hand climbs into the hills west of Reading before running south of Swindon and north of Bath.

 

[D6130]

Has there ever been much in East Anglia that was exported through the Welsh ports? Such as?

Turnips?

Felixstowe to Manchester etc. container trains would not be going through London for a start!

I don't think container trains were a thing when the early railways were being planned!

 

[The Planner]

Those familiar with the M40 will be aware of the 90 degree bend north of Oxford. That allegedly is the join between the M40 to Oxford and the unbuilt M41 via Watford, Tring and Aylesbury.

No, its as below. The route was moved to avoid Otmoor. I don't believe anything was planned past the Tring bypass or A41(M) as it was.

I thought the bend existed to ensure the motorway was routed well away from Otmoor and Shabbington Wood?

 

[simonw]

For example Tottenham Court Rd has twice the entries and exits of Birmingham New St with only two platforms to BNS's twelve.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but TCR has 3 lines and 6 platforms.

 

[Class15]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but TCR has 3 lines and 6 platforms.

Only the Elizabeth line platforms count to those statistics, of which there are 2.

 

[simonw]

Only the Elizabeth line platforms count to those statistics, of which there are 2.

Well then your have to remove all the exits which serve the other lines, that would be all of them.