The North Wales Coast

[IanPooleTrains]

As many of you know from some of the pictures and videos I have posted, I recently partook in my annual holiday to North Wales and while me and my brother were galavanting around the place, we noticed that there seemed to be an 'infrequency' in the services that were there with a huge gap between trains at one point in each direction.

And it got me and my brother thinking that another TOC might come in and fill the gap or one of the existing TOCs that serve this area could extend their services

Anyone got any ideas?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Erm, having studied the timetable (ATW 4), where are these gaps that you speak of? Going off Rhyl (probably the biggest station by passengers between Chester-Llandudno Jn), there seems to be a good half-hourly daily service from Monday-Friday...

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Well, if we take, for example, in the direction of Holyhead, calling at Rhyl is:

xx:29 to Llandudno
xx:55 to Holyhead

In the direction of Chester, we have

xx:12 to Piccadilly
xx:41 to Birmingham International/Cardiff Central
xx:59 to London Euston

So certainly from Llandudno there is scope for someone to come in and coming from Chester, there looks to be a nice enough gap as well.

This, of course, is only a theory

 

[Squaddie]

Which of those gaps do you think is too great? An hourly service is almost certainly enough along the north Wales coast; a half-hourly service seems to be positively generous.

 

[First class]

30mins is hardly a gap.

Based on the times you provide:

xx:12 to Chester then
xx:41 to Chester (29mins)
xx:59 to Chester (18mins)
then back to xx:12 which is 13mins.......

A better than half hourly service from LLJ-CTR....... am I missing something?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think it is not quite the right thing for an OAO. I think off-season, 1tph to Manchester is correct for Llandudno - it is a town of only 20,000, and most of its catchment area can be dealt with by Llandudno Jn. In the high summer weekends, however, I do believe there may be some benefit to Virgin extending some Euston-Chester runs to Llandudno, and maybe ATW laying on some extra shuttles from Jn, connecting with arrivals from Holyhead / Cardiff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

30mins is hardly a gap.

Based on the times you provide:

xx:12 to Chester then
xx:41 to Chester (29mins)
xx:59 to Chester (18mins)
then back to xx:12 which is 13mins.......

A better than half hourly service from LLJ-CTR....... am I missing something?

AFAIK the xx59 is the Euston service, so only runs 5 times a day, but two evenly-spaced trains an hour is still pretty good!

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Yeah the xx59 is a Euston train either from Bangor or Holyhead but I was just thinking out loud.

Maybe those shuttles from Llandudno to the junction could have been extended perhaps to maybe Chester or Crewe?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

AFAIK there are no current shuttles, only:
1tph (Class 175) from Manchester, Warrington and Chester
1tp2h (Class 150) from Blanaeu Ffestiniog

... Which basically gives Llandudno three trains every two hours.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

There is also the xx:08 Llandudno to Llandudno Junction with returns as the xx:25 Llandudno Junction to Llandudno and then goes forward as the xx:45 to Piccadilly

 

[Squaddie]

Maybe those shuttles from Llandudno to the junction could have been extended perhaps to maybe Chester or Crewe?

But the hourly shuttle from Llandudno to the Junction connects very neatly (sometimes too neatly, with a connection time that is too short to be comfortable on British railways) with the trains from Holyhead to Chester. There is no need to extend it.

There is also the xx:08 Llandudno to Llandudno Junction with returns as the xx:25 Llandudno Junction to Llandudno and then goes forward as the xx:45 to Piccadilly

It sounds as though ATW is utilising its available trains quite efficiently.

 

[Cymroglan]

I know that it was a long time ago now, but I still miss the glory days of a 2 train service between Blaenau and the Junction. One of many things killed by John Major's brilliance.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Shotton is station for whats known as Deeside Conurbation (c30,000 pop) only the hourly Manchester to Llandudno stops on coast line there so theres room for more trains to stop there.

I think generally the real issue is not so much frequency between Chester and Llandudno its peak time seating capacity and where the trains extend to. Diverting the Birmingham trains via Wrexham and Shrewsbury has added over an hours journey time compared to via Crewe and Stafford. Theirs no through services from Liverpool. Too many 2 car trains etc.

 

[Welshman]

Perhaps a faster service from Holyhead to York/Hull would fill the gap and fit the bill? [please see Paul Sidorczuk's "Holyhead-Hull" thread].
Calling only at Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Chester, Warrington, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield & Leeds?

It would provide welcome through journey opportunities into W. Yorkshire, and also faster journeys from Chester-Manchester. The existing service, taking 1 hour for the 40 miles, is rather pathetic, but the best that can be achieved while calling at all stops.

 

[headshot119]

I don't really think Shotton needs any extra services.

the Llandudno - Man pic trains stop there. You say that diverting the Birminghams via Wrexham has added time (They've been that way since 2008 if not earlier), yet you want that same service to serve another station?

When I've gone through there on the rare time I've used a Llandudno train there is hardly anyone getting on or off.

 

[tbtc]

I think generally the real issue is not so much frequency between Chester and Llandudno its peak time seating capacity and where the trains extend to. Diverting the Birmingham trains via Wrexham and Shrewsbury has added over an hours journey time compared to via Crewe and Stafford. Theirs no through services from Liverpool. Too many 2 car trains etc.

I'd agree with that.

I'm not sure where the OP is coming from with his complaint that there are these "huge" gaps/ "infrequent" services, considering the coast line gets pretty much a straight half hourly service from Chester to Llandudno Junction (with a handful of London trains slotted in too)- seems to be about the right level of service and seems pretty well co-ordinated (especially given that these trains are pretty long distance, so don't have the flexibility to change "slots" significantly).

However the length of trains (too short, generally) and the "eastern" destination (is there really so much demand in North Wales to get to Cardiff, but none to Liverpool?) need looking in to.

I'm sure a lot of lines would like a half hourly service like the North Wales Coast line gets - I've rarely heard it criticised for being infrequent!

 

[RichmondCommu]

I know that it was a long time ago now, but I still miss the glory days of a 2 train service between Blaenau and the Junction. One of many things killed by John Major's brilliance.

Why is this? The latest copy of the rail atlas shows that there is a passing loop at North Llanrwst?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just as an aside, the improvements to the A55 road and the road tunnel at Conwy have made rail travel along the North Wales coast line a less obvious option these days, considering the car ownership figures, even allowing for the high cost of petrol and diesel.

I speak as someone who remembers those long-off days with extremely well patronised trains, with services to Afon Wen, Llanberis, etc, that now no longer exist.

 

[krus_aragon]

Why is this? The latest copy of the rail atlas shows that there is a passing loop at North Llanrwst?

In a word: clockface.

The current timetable is based around one captive unit, which takes ~1:10 to make the journey from Llandudno to Blaenau. Add turnaround and padding, and you get a three-hourly service with that one unit.

The Llanrwst loop is half way between the Junction and Blaenau, but two-thirds of the way from Llandudno down to Blaenau. Given that clockface timetables are all the rage these days, I can't find a way of making a two-hourly timetable work with the Llanrwst North loop. It's in the right place, timing-wise, for an hourly service between only the Junction and Blaenau using two units (or two-houly with just the one), but that doesn't give them enough time to get to Llandudno before turning back down the valley. To do an hourly clockface timetable between Llandudno itself and Blaenau, I think you'd need three units, using Llanrwst North and Llandudno Jn as passing points.

Perhaps with the current 2tph between Llandudno and the Junction it might be acceptible to lose the direct service to Llandudno, and go either two-hourly with current resources, or even hourly at the cost of a second unit and crew (perhaps just for the summer). Alternatively, if and when services from Llangefni resume, they may be of use at the Llandudno end in some respect.

 

[merlodlliw]

Why is this? The latest copy of the rail atlas shows that there is a passing loop at North Llanrwst?

If I recall North Llanrwst station was put in for a National Eisteddfod along with a passing loop. Two stations in little Llanrwst, two minutes apart.

Bob

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I'd agree with that.

I'm not sure where the OP is coming from with his complaint that there are these "huge" gaps/ "infrequent" services, considering the coast line gets pretty much a straight half hourly service from Chester to Llandudno Junction (with a handful of London trains slotted in too)- seems to be about the right level of service and seems pretty well co-ordinated (especially given that these trains are pretty long distance, so don't have the flexibility to change "slots" significantly).

However the length of trains (too short, generally) and the "eastern" destination (is there really so much demand in North Wales to get to Cardiff, but none to Liverpool?) need looking in to.

I'm sure a lot of lines would like a half hourly service like the North Wales Coast line gets - I've rarely heard it criticised for being infrequent!

With the greatest of respect to you, and I know me and you have a lot of banter go between us on subjects, it isn't as much a complaint, more of an observation.

I was just thinking that the NWC has a few seaside towns (ie Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, abergele and Pensarn, Colwyn Bay, llandudno etc) and I was merely thinking that perhaps with another service going in there might help out boost figures, if that is the right phrase to use.

I agree with you that some of their trains are too short in general BUT, and this is where I am going to actually back up ATW on this, they only have a limited availabilty of stock that section this can have. Most of their 175 units have gone down for their Manchester Piccadilly to South Wales services BUT then you have to remember that they have 51 158s and one has to ask where all of them have disappeared to

Another point that I am going to agree with you on is Liverpool. Most of the trade that comes in for Wales seems to be from people from the Liverpool area and all they have, at the moment, to get them into the NWC is a service every twenty minutes from Liverpool Central on MerseyRail to get them as far as Chester and this, IMO, is where a TOC like Northern Rail could come in and extend, suggestively, the Liverpool to Warrington services and send them down the NWC.

 

[merlodlliw]

Shotton is station for whats known as Deeside Conurbation (c30,000 pop) only the hourly Manchester to Llandudno stops on coast line there so theres room for more trains to stop there.

I think generally the real issue is not so much frequency between Chester and Llandudno its peak time seating capacity and where the trains extend to. Diverting the Birmingham trains via Wrexham and Shrewsbury has added over an hours journey time compared to via Crewe and Stafford. Theirs no through services from Liverpool. Too many 2 car trains etc.

Entirely agree, the Birmingham route used to be Dee/Seven when Central took it over, Shotton with its large catchment area is a problem,same number of trains as Abergele, also in my opinion we need more capacity on current ATWs going east, two car in peak summer is a total turn off when the coast population increases by a million.


Bob

 

[tivoli]

Travelled back from Holyhead to Chester on way to London yesterday on late running ATW to Birmingham Intl. As an aside have to commend staff on train, collecting info from passengers who needed to make tight connections and keeping everyone infomed, sadly not a service which can be expected everywhere.

 

[cle]

The Halton curve would really help this out. With an hourly service from Liverpool to Llandudno or Bangor/Holyhead (alternating each hour) calling [stn]LPY[/stn], Runcorn, Chester and regular stops. Prestatyn and Rhyl are the main two for Scousers, as well as Llanduds itself.

These alternations could happen with the Manchester train too to try and match. Liverpool service could mop up the Llanduds shuttle lost due to shorter ex-Manc layovers.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

The Halton curve would really help this out. With an hourly service from Liverpool to Llandudno or Bangor/Holyhead (alternating each hour) calling [stn]LPY[/stn], Runcorn, Chester and regular stops. Prestatyn and Rhyl are the main two for Scousers, as well as Llanduds itself.

These alternations could happen with the Manchester train too to try and match. Liverpool service could mop up the Llanduds shuttle lost due to shorter ex-Manc layovers.

I believe Merseyrail are again looking into the reopening of the Halton Curve. I received a letter from MP recently advising me of this. I'm assuming that if this reopening were to go ahead, Merseyrail would be looking to get something out of it. How would this fit with ATW and Northern and is their capacity on the WCML Liverpool branch for extra commuter services?

 

[cle]

It's more regional than Merseyrail surely - at least if it goes beyond Chester.

 

[Big Chris]

Llangefni to Liverpool? That would could work with a 2 hourly service to alternate with virgin if they go two hourly from Bangor.

 

[Arriva 175]

With the greatest of respect to you, and I know me and you have a lot of banter go between us on subjects, it isn't as much a complaint, more of an observation.

I was just thinking that the NWC has a few seaside towns (ie Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, abergele and Pensarn, Colwyn Bay, llandudno etc) and I was merely thinking that perhaps with another service going in there might help out boost figures, if that is the right phrase to use.

I agree with you that some of their trains are too short in general BUT, and this is where I am going to actually back up ATW on this, they only have a limited availabilty of stock that section this can have. Most of their 175 units have gone down for their Manchester Piccadilly to South Wales services BUT then you have to remember that they have 51 158s and one has to ask where all of them have disappeared to

Another point that I am going to agree with you on is Liverpool. Most of the trade that comes in for Wales seems to be from people from the Liverpool area and all they have, at the moment, to get them into the NWC is a service every twenty minutes from Liverpool Central on MerseyRail to get them as far as Chester and this, IMO, is where a TOC like Northern Rail could come in and extend, suggestively, the Liverpool to Warrington services and send them down the NWC.

The service on the Coast is a frequent now as it has been for years. Under First North Western Holyhead had an 2 hourly service at best and most terminated at Bangor.
Overcrowding is a problem in the Summer months but that is all to do with replacing 5 coach loco and stock with 2 or 3 car Class 175 units with limited luggage facilities and room for "2 bicycles". Often ive seen over 8 cycles on board. Arriva only has 24 Class 158s and not 51.
Services to Liverpool would be a great idea but there are currently no spare rolling stock to cover the diagrams. Any spare stock would be better used strenghtening overcrowded services.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

It's more regional than Merseyrail surely - at least if it goes beyond Chester.

I agree. But it is Merseyrail who are costing the project and working with local councils to allocate resources etc. NR have had their finger up their bottom with regard to this project for years. It looks like MR are looking into it a bit more thoroughly.

 

[Rhydgaled]

they have 51 158s

If only. I expect we could add an HOURLY service to west Wales via the Swansea District Line, along with an hourly service to Aberystwyth and have all Cambrian and Holyhead - Birmingham services 4-car all the time with that lot.

Services to Liverpool would be a great idea but there are currently no spare rolling stock to cover the diagrams. Any spare stock would be better used strenghtening overcrowded services.

I think Arriva's 18-22 mark 2s should be put to use. The pool code it is assigned to, according to thejunction, is 'Arriva Trains Wales Special Events Stock'. Either ATW should actually use the stock when there are special events (the festival near Pembrey & Burry Port several weeks ago resulted in the staff having to turn loads of passengers away from the 2-car 175 I was traveling on, yet to my knowledge this 'special events stock' remained sat in the depot) or they should:

• Obtain the 6 mark 2 DBSOs
• Fit 6 class 47 or 57 locomotives with the right sort of TDM to work with the DBSOs
• Form 6 rakes (one of which would be spare) of mark 2s with TDM fitted loco and DBSO
• Put the 5 LHCS sets in service on the 5 busiest 175 diagrams expected on each day

The restrictive MU speed restrictions mentioned in the discussion regarding WAG 2 not going 67 hauled from December might be a problem though.

 

[Cymroglan]

As far as the Conwy Valley line goes, I was told, (can't remember who by) that the reason it's a one train service is to do with issues of cost & availablility of using a 2nd unit, hence my reference to Major.

I may have been misinformed, and I am eager to believe the worst of all politicians!