the most over the top restrictions introduced

[Bletchleyite]

Alternatively, two blokes who want to meet for a drink could hold hands as they walk into the pub and pretend that they are a gay couple living together.

You don't have to be gay to have a housemate

That said, it'd be a reasonably good bet because anyone calling them out for lying would be afraid of a discrimination case.

 

[takno]

I think the beer gardens of the North East are going to be busy this weekend.

Following on from which there will be a ban on socialising in beer gardens imposed next week.

Or people will travel outside the restricted area, maybe on a day trip to Edinburgh, which will no doubt please Mrs Krankie Nicola Sturgeon no end.

Alternatively, two blokes who want to meet for a drink could hold hands as they walk into the pub and pretend that they are a gay couple living together.

There are plenty of circumstances where two blokes live together without being a gay couple. Most venues couldn't give a hoot anyway as long as you are willing to claim you're a household, or at least a support bubble.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are plenty of circumstances where two blokes live together without being a gay couple. Most venues couldn't give a hoot anyway as long as you are willing to claim you're a household, or at least a support bubble.

Yes, I guess the support bubble idea basically makes any such restriction unenforceable, at least as far as a group of two goes (or any family plus one person).

Interestingly (and quite alarmingly) the Welsh local lockdowns remove support bubbles, so single people are genuinely stuck completely alone.

 

[AM9]

Not that easy, because the ANPR system won't be set up to do that.

Random stops, I suspect.

If they seriously wanted to they could have 1 car at the entry point and 1 or 2 cars checking at the most likely M4 exit junctions. With appropriate intelligence to limit the time resource, wouldn't take long to catch a few and with high-profile fines, would discourage a fair number of other would be 'libertarian restriction-breakers'.

 

[takno]

If they seriously wanted to they could have 1 car at the entry point and 1 or 2 cars checking at the most likely M4 exit junctions. With appropriate intelligence to limit the time resource, wouldn't take long to catch a few and with high-profile fines, would discourage a fair number of other would be 'libertarian restriction-breakers'.

It was high profile interventions like this from Devon and Cornwall police that left my elderly parents without help doing their shopping for 3 months during lockdown. My sister was literally too scared to drive 20 miles up the road to check on them and do a Tesco's run. Apart from people who enjoy misguided rule-worship, who actually benefits from this anyway?

 

[duncanp]

There are plenty of circumstances where two blokes live together without being a gay couple. Most venues couldn't give a hoot anyway as long as you are willing to claim you're a household, or at least a support bubble.

My remarks were slightly tongue in cheek.

The point is, if two or more people, regardless of gender or sexuality, walk into a pub together and say they live together or in a support bubble, how are the staff supposed to know whether they are telling the truth?

Also, to what extent is the pub/restaurant/cafe legally liable if it later turns out that people were lying?

I would sincerely hope that the hospitality sector is not held legally liable if a customer tells lies about who they live with in order to be able to meet up in an indoor setting.

Yes, I guess the support bubble idea basically makes any such restriction unenforceable, at least as far as a group of two goes (or any family plus one person).

Interestingly (and quite alarmingly) the Welsh local lockdowns remove support bubbles, so single people are genuinely stuck completely alone.

Similarly to the above, if two single people who live at different addresses walk into a pub in Wales and claim they live together, how is the landlord supposed to know whether they are telling the truth or not?

It seems to me that all these restrictions are relying on a large degree of voluntary compliance, with the threat of fines for anyone who is caught breaking the rules.

Will the police come into a pub in the North East or Wales and check that people who are drinking together actually live at the same address?

I somehow doubt it, but no doubt there will be a few jobsworths who will relish the opportunity to poke their noses into people's private lives "..in order to keep us all safe...."

 

[trebor79]

Also, to what extent is the pub/restaurant/cafe legally liable if it later turns out that people were lying?

You don't expect anyone has actually considered these practical issues do you?

 

[duncanp]

You don't expect anyone has actually considered these practical issues do you?

Of course not.

But of course if people are found to be lying about their domestic arrangements in order to have a drink together in the pub, no doubt it will be the pub's fault, rather than the governments' fault for making up such silly regulations, and Karen from Facebook and Mandy from Mumsnet will start shouting that the pubs need to close completely until a vaccine is found, so that we are all safe.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Also, to what extent is the pub/restaurant/cafe legally liable if it later turns out that people were lying?

I would sincerely hope that the hospitality sector is not held legally liable if a customer tells lies about who they live with in order to be able to meet up in an indoor setting.

Given that it has already been made clear that establishments are not liable for cases where people put false details into the track and trace system even it is obvious, (e,g, if someone gave their name as Homer Simpson and put their number as 01234567890), I would assume the same to be the case if customers lie about being a household when they are not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similarly to the above, if two single people who live at different addresses walk into a pub in Wales and claim they live together, how is the landlord supposed to know whether they are telling the truth or not?

They could ask for ID, some pubs are doing.

 

[duncanp]

They could ask for ID, some pubs are doing.

But if the ID doesn't show the address, such as with a UK passport, then you can't tell whether the people live together.

And even if it did, there are plenty of websites where you can order fake ID.

 

[Bikeman78]

If they seriously wanted to they could have 1 car at the entry point and 1 or 2 cars checking at the most likely M4 exit junctions. With appropriate intelligence to limit the time resource, wouldn't take long to catch a few and with high-profile fines, would discourage a fair number of other would be 'libertarian restriction-breakers'.

Is this the same South Wales Police force that for the past 10 years "hasn't had anyone available" to deal with quad bikes driving at 40 or 50 in a 20 limit with no number plates? Thus presumably no tax, MOT or insurance either.

 

[AM9]

Is this the same South Wales Police force that for the past 10 years "hasn't had anyone available" to deal with quad bikes driving at 40 or 50 in a 20 limit with no number plates? Thus presumably no tax, MOT or insurance either.

It would be the same for any police force so inclined to deal with those who think that the restrictions didn't apply to them. I don't discriminate between those that some might identify as having lapses in the past. ANPR is extensively used everywhere to check on vehicle movements, both legitimate and illegal. My initial answer was in response to your assertion in post #747.

 

[Scrotnig]

They could ask for ID, some pubs are doing.

How would that prove a support bubble exists?

 

[Huntergreed]

How would that prove a support bubble exists?

In wales these are not allowed in Local Lockdowns (I think)

 

[Bletchleyite]

In wales these are not allowed in Local Lockdowns (I think)

Correct.

 

[Bikeman78]

It would be the same for any police force so inclined to deal with those who think that the restrictions didn't apply to them. I don't discriminate between those that some might identify as having lapses in the past. ANPR is extensively used everywhere to check on vehicle movements, both legitimate and illegal. My initial answer was in response to your assertion in post #747.

ANPR cameras will pick up tens of thousands of vehicles based in Cardiff or Newport. Does the Police have the resources to chase up all of them? Even if they came knocking on someone's door, they would still have to prove who was driving wouldn't they?

I'll be blunt, I'm not really interested any more. I went along with the rules for several months but now we are going backwards. I'll let you know if I get caught.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

But if the ID doesn't show the address, such as with a UK passport, then you can't tell whether the people live together.

Relationships, 2019:
Meet up for a drink, go on a few dates, form a bond, move in together.
2020, the new normal: move in together, get your passport changed to reflect your new address - then you can legally go for a drink <joke>

 

[Bletchleyite]

Point of order - UK passports don't have addresses registered against them, though there's a page to write it on if you want.

 

[adc82140]

Relatively easy using ANPR.

ANPR will detect the registered keeper of the vehicle. That may well be a corporate leasing company. It says nothing about where the driver is from.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Point of order - UK passports don't have addresses registered against them, though there's a page to write it on if you want.

Well that can be changed without Parliamentary scrutiny if the current state of affairs continues

 

[3rd rail land]

Well that can be changed without Parliamentary scrutiny if the current state of affairs continues

True. However having just renewed my passport I would refuse to get a new one unless the Government paid for it. Oh and I am not defacing my nice new passport by writing in my address with a pen.

 

[DelayRepay]

True. However having just renewed my passport I would refuse to get a new one unless the Government paid for it. Oh and I am not defacing my nice new passport by writing in my address with a pen.

In that case you will have to show a gas bill, or alternatively agree to a full Experian check at the point of entry.

(I shouldn't give them ideas should I?)

 

[duncanp]

Point of order - UK passports don't have addresses registered against them, though there's a page to write it on if you want.

But there is no legal obligation to keep the address up to date, as the passport would look quite messy if you moved house quite often.

So if questioned you could just say that you have moved house since the passport was issued.

(I shouldn't give them ideas should I?)

No you shouldn't, because sooner or later some coronaphobe and/or loctivist and/or Nicola Sturgeon and/or Sadiq Khant will suggest that biometric ID cards, each linked to a UK address, should be compulsory for all UK citizens, as it will "...help keep us safe from this terrible virus, protect the NHS and save lives...."

 

[PeterY]

I'll be blunt, I'm not really interested any more. I went along with the rules for several months but now we are going backwards. I'll let you know if I get caught.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that think's like that. In my mind, things are getting sillier and sillier with what you can and can not do. I'm sure there are a large number of people that have bent the rules to suit themselves, me included.

 

[AM9]

ANPR cameras will pick up tens of thousands of vehicles based in Cardiff or Newport. Does the Police have the resources to chase up all of them? Even if they came knocking on someone's door, they would still have to prove who was driving wouldn't they?

I'll be blunt, I'm not really interested any more. I went along with the rules for several months but now we are going backwards. I'll let you know if I get caught.

I don't really care if you specifically get caught wilfuly breaking the law, but I do care that the number of violations is kept to a minimum in the attempts to reduce the spread, especially as South Wales is becoming a problem.

 

[Richard Scott]

I don't really care if you specifically get caught wilfuly breaking the law, but I do care that the number of violations is kept to a minimum in the attempts to reduce the spread, especially as South Wales is becoming a problem.

No it isn't, the number of cases is ridiculously low for what's being imposed. I may be wrong but the week ending 22nd had 87 cases in Newport and they put extra restrictions in place for that? I'm afraid it's hysteria. I agree cases will rise but what can we do? You carry on with all the restrictions under the pretence it's all worthwhile and the rest of us will carry on and live with the risk. This constant in/out of lockdown/restrictions/whatever you want to call it is wrecking lives.

 

[AM9]

No it isn't, the number of cases is ridiculously low for what's being imposed. I may be wrong but the week ending 22nd had 87 cases in Newport and they put extra restrictions in place for that? I'm afraid it's hysteria. I agree cases will rise but what can we do? You carry on with all the restrictions under the pretence it's all worthwhile and the rest of us will carry on and live with the risk. This constant in/out of lockdown/restrictions/whatever you want to call it is wrecking lives.

You not only "live with the risk" (to yourself and to others), but you also risk getting cautioned, fined etc., if you break the current laws on movements. The only bit that I care about is the risk to others, which could 'wreck their lives'.

 

[DB]

You not only "live with the risk" (to yourself and to others), but you also risk getting cautioned, fined etc., if you break the current laws on movements. The only bit that I care about is the risk to others, which could 'wreck their lives'.

And all these petty restrictions (most of which appear to have absolutely no impact on infection numbers) aren't wrecking lives?

 

[AM9]

And all these petty restrictions (most of which appear to have absolutely no impact on infection numbers) aren't wrecking lives?

No, the restrictions aren't "wrecking" the lives of the majority.