The Manual

[All Line Rover]

Yes, and it could be put onto a centralised and well publicised website that could lay claim to being the definitive rail travel guide to the public....

Oh.

The Manual isn't definitive. It's a guide to retail staff.

If "not definitive" = "useless" = "not necessary" then what point does The Manual serve? It is a guide to retail staff, but it would also be nice if it was available to the public, to save them having to ask retail staff (which includes the dreaded NRE helpline! hock about minor matters.

Your argument (in this specific post) does not make sense. NRE is almost a carbon copy of The Manual, but is in an easier to understand format and is "definitive" because it is the public's information resource. On the "odd" () occasion I have spotted a mistake on NRE, I contacted ATOC about it, they sent me a copy of the relevant extract from The Manual and they updated NRE to correspond with The Manual. If The Manual is "not definitive," but is just a "guide" that is subject to interpretation, why would ATOC (who run NRE) do such a thing time and again?

None of these arguments convince me that some "major" issue prevents ATOC from putting a PDF copy of The Manual online that is publicly available (like they have done for the RG). So I will contact them and see what they say - no harm can come from doing so, after all!

 

[Edvid]

I'm not holding my breath, but I wish you the best of luck.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There must be hundreds. Just counting places beginning with A and B (excluding PLUSBUS), there are over 50.

Having now checked A & B, I can honestly say I didn't know the majority of these (because I've never needed to check) but most seem to be simple add ons (like Luton Bus MK) that should appear in a fares enquiry.

....What reason is there that prevents ATOC from making The Manual publicly available? Not a single reason has been given. People claim that it is not necessary to make The Manual publicly available, but then, why is it necessary to keep it secret....

Maybe there is a cost issue, maybe there is some information in there, like phone numbers and addresses, that ATOC thinks would not be good to put in the public domain. You'd have to ask them though, this really is only speculation.

Perhaps if there was a way to charge for the information (the NFMs were sold rather than given out) then that might be a way forward.

Yes, of course. Please try and find some information regarding Virgin's offer of relaxing Peak restrictions for tickets accompanied by a Railcard, that is available on an official resource (not just, say, Virgin's Facebook page!) in the public domain. I await a response! ....

That is an easement that Virgin allow, it is not part of the contract and can be altered or amended at any time, if Virgin don't want to advertise it other than on Facebook, that is up to them, but don't go thinking it is a right the railcard holder has. If it was part of the contract it would be in the public domain as part of the literature and Virgin would have trouble removing or amending it.

Agreed. But it seems some think it is. I have seen various posts on here where people have said 'The Manual says...' and believe that ends the argument for good....

The manual shouldn't contain any information, that the passenger requires, that isn't in the public domain, however there is data, such as issueing instructions, which the public do not need to know, but which staff do. The manual has a function or it would not be.

 

[All Line Rover]

Maybe there is a cost issue, maybe there is some information in there, like phone numbers and addresses, that ATOC thinks would not be good to put in the public domain. You'd have to ask them though, this really is only speculation.

If The Manual contains personal information, that is a fair point. But then, such information could be removed at the touch of a button if a "public" edition of The Manual was made available. It would take less than 1 hour, I'm sure!

That is an easement that Virgin allow, it is not part of the contract and can be altered or amended at any time, if Virgin don't want to advertise it other than on Facebook, that is up to them, but don't go thinking it is a right the railcard holder has. If it was part of the contract it would be in the public domain as part of the literature and Virgin would have trouble removing or amending it.

It is a special offer that applies to customers who purchase an Off-Peak Railcard-discounted ticket. It is a very important special offer, and the up-to-date T&C's of the offer should be publicly available and easily found (and free!). The only up-to-date, word-for-word "T&C's" for the offer currently appear in The Manual.

I don't understand your latter point. The offer is not somehow "protected" - Virgin can remove it at will. I find that unlikely for the considerable future since it would generate a lot of negative publicity, but if Virgin ever want to alter the details of something mentioned in both The Manual and on the NRE website, they tell ATOC once and both get updated since ATOC manage both resources!

 

[MikeWh]

It is a special offer that applies to customers who purchase an Off-Peak Railcard-discounted ticket. It is a very important special offer, and the up-to-date T&C's of the offer should be publicly available and easily found (and free!). The only up-to-date, word-for-word "T&C's" for the offer currently appear in The Manual.

I don't understand your latter point. The offer is not somehow "protected" - Virgin can remove it at will. I find that unlikely for the considerable future since it would generate a lot of negative publicity, but if Virgin ever want to alter the details of something mentioned in both The Manual and on the NRE website, they tell ATOC once and both get updated since ATOC manage both resources!

I thiunk you're missing the point. Some things are written into the contract, like accepting national railcards (F&F, 16-25, Senior etc). These cannot be changed. Other things are a commercial decision by the company themselves, like allowing off-peak with railcard all the time, or participating in Groupsave. Where the company offers things of it's own free will, it is down to that company where and how they publicise it. If you don't think it is being published enough, I suggest you contact Virgin customer services.

 

[RJ]

If The Manual contains personal information, that is a fair point. But then, such information could be removed at the touch of a button if a "public" edition of The Manual was made available. It would take less than 1 hour, I'm sure!

Some of the contact information is actually useful to us. For example, where discrepancies are found in the ticketing system, it's easy to find out who to notify. Why should it be changed for the sake of a very small minority of people who can find the information that they need elsewhere?

If you really want to know about the railcard concession, I suggest you email Virgin Trains Customer Relations.

 

[cuccir]

Where the company offers things of it's own free will, it is down to that company where and how they publicise it. If you don't think it is being published enough, I suggest you contact Virgin customer services.

Doesn't the following, from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, page 1, apply?

The Train Companies may give you more extensive rights than those set out in these Conditions and, if they do so, these may be found in each Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter or other publications. Details of where you can find this information will be available when you buy your ticket.

Given that offering group-save, or off-peak travel with a railcard is a 'more extensive right', then the details of this should be available somewhere which is accessible. Unless I've misunderstood the intention of this?

--
Also

Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such
as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can
be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train
Companies whose trains you are entitled to use.

There is a clear obligation for TOCs to set out, accessibly, the restrictions that they put on tickets.

 

[Brucey]

NRE is easy to use for the majority of people. Avantix Traveller has also been provided to the public. What is available in The Manual, that is not available on NRE, on sites linked to through NRE or Avantix Traveller?

Here is one example: how do I calculate an excess fare? Could you tell me where I can find this in publically accessible places without contacting a TOC?

 

[All Line Rover]

Some of the contact information is actually useful to us. For example, where discrepancies are found in the ticketing system, it's easy to find out who to notify. Why should it be changed for the sake of a very small minority of people who can find the information that they need elsewhere?

No, because if ATOC put a "public" version of The Manual on the NRE website, they could take out the contact information. There is no need to change the staff version of The Manual, is there?

 

[AlterEgo]

No, because if ATOC put a "public" version of The Manual on the NRE website, they could take out the contact information. There is no need to change the staff version of The Manual, is there?

I'll ask the question for the last time.

What's wrong with simply updating an overhauling NRE to show all of the appropriate and correct information? Why this fixation with getting a 'sanitised' public version of a staff guidance document published?

 

[Minilad]

I'll ask the question for the last time.

What's wrong with simply updating an overhauling NRE to show all of the appropriate and correct information? Why this fixation with getting a 'sanitised' public version of a staff guidance document published?

Because, and I am just throwing this out there, some on this site are just a teeny weeny bit obsessed. They hate the thought that someone has some info that they don't have. They want to know every last piece of info so they can exploit even the tiniest loophole. They complain about the secrecy and the complexity of the fare structure but then use it to their advantage.

Just sayin' like

 

[Deerfold]

I think most have become PlusBus, I know the Milton Keynes-Luton Airport bus hasn't (although Luton Bus, Leagrave Bus and Luton Airport Parkway Bus became PlusBus), but it seems NRES (and many TIS) completely ignores that information anyway.

Heathrow buses are probably still seperate, I'm not sure (without looking) what others there are.

The Luton airport parkway bus *does not* accept plusbus (although you can get local services from near the parkway with one). It needs a ticket to Luton Airport.

http://www.plusbus.info/luton-leagrave-plusbus-includes-dunstable

 

[All Line Rover]

I'll ask the question for the last time.

What's wrong with simply updating an overhauling NRE to show all of the appropriate and correct information? Why this fixation with getting a 'sanitised' public version of a staff guidance document published?

There's nothing wrong at all with overhauling NRE! But can I imagine ATOC doing that? No. So why can't they make "The Manual" public, like they have done with the RG and Avantix Traveller? If there is any personal information in it - remove it! A 5 minute job.

 

[AlterEgo]

So you can't imagine ATOC overhauling NRE, but it's entirely plausible they'll publish a staff guidance manual instead?

 

[All Line Rover]

Because, and I am just throwing this out there, some on this site are just a teeny weeny bit obsessed. They hate the thought that someone has some info that they don't have. They want to know every last piece of info so they can exploit even the tiniest loophole. They complain about the secrecy and the complexity of the fare structure but then use it to their advantage.

Just sayin' like

This does not just happen in the railways. Tax avoidance is another good example.

Information is good in many ways, and yes, it can help people save money! Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think so.

I'm not entirely sure what "loopholes" people think The Manual contains - it's just full of general information (from what I've heard). Some of this information can't be found in the public domain, but I don't see how it can save people money. The Routeing Guide contains far more "loopholes" to take advantage of. If ATOC were so concerned about preventing people from taking advantage of loopholes, they'd want to keep the RG secret, not The Manual!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you can't imagine ATOC overhauling NRE, but it's entirely plausible they'll publish a staff guidance manual instead?

Yes, because overhauling NRE would cost money.

Is not the Routeing Guide a "staff guidance manual?" Are you suggesting that this document is mainly for public reference?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yes, because overhauling NRE would cost money.

And having someone to remove all personal information from the manual, as well as sensitive information, and then rewriting the authentication code base to allow anyone to read it, and putting links on the NRE and other websites wouldn't cost money?


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[All Line Rover]

Here is one example: how do I calculate an excess fare? Could you tell me where I can find this in publically accessible places without contacting a TOC?

This too is a good point, that has not yet been responded to.

There is very little information regarding excess fares in the public domain.* Rather than being able to calculate excess fares themselves, customers are required to ask staff, many of which "don't have a clue" or are simply misinformed.

If The Manual was publicly available, customers could attempt to work out the appropriate excess fare for themselves. They could then decide whether or not they wish to purchase the excess fare. Of course, it wouldn't mean customers would then tell staff "you press this button here, then this button there, then you enter this number," but if the actions of staff ever disagreed with the customer's interpretation, the customer could contact the TOC involved to clarify the matter.

At present, customers must rely solely on a member of staff's (often incorrect) interpretation of excess fares, and have no idea whether he/she has issued the excess fare correctly or not!

*Almost all available information regarding excess fares has been obtained through FOI requests. I wouldn't call this "publicly available information."

 

[AlterEgo]

That sounds great. An Excess Fare calculator/ready reckoner. That sounds like a job for National Rail Enquiries...alright, I'm done with this thread.

 

[RJ]

Here is one example: how do I calculate an excess fare? Could you tell me where I can find this in publically accessible places without contacting a TOC?

Provide an example of the excess fare you need and the circumstances in which you require it and we'll have a look at what the NRCoC has to say about it.

 

[All Line Rover]

And having someone to remove all personal information from the manual, as well as sensitive information, and then rewriting the authentication code base to allow anyone to read it, and putting links on the NRE and other websites wouldn't cost money?

It would cost a lot less money than designing entirely new sections on the NRE website!

In the past, organisations such as East Coast have, because of FOI requests, been required to publish "internal" documents, but with sensitive information removed. That took time and I'm sure cost a little bit of money, but it never cost them more than £450.

 

[RJ]

That sounds great. An Excess Fare calculator/ready reckoner. That sounds like a job for National Rail Enquiries...alright, I'm done with this thread.

There is one on there, have you ever got it to work? My browser doesn't like it

 

[All Line Rover]

An Excess Fare calculator/ready reckoner.

That does sound like a very good idea. To have NRE automatically calculate excess fares would be an excellent tool, and much better than having the public trying to interpret The Manual. But, I have two concerns...

1. Would ATOC bother doing that? (Perhaps not .)

2. Would the calculator interpret excess fares correctly!? (If NRE's interpretation of the RG is anything to go by, perhaps not. )
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is one on there

Where? As far as I know, there is no Excess Fares Calculator on the public version of NRE. There is an Excess Fares Calculator on the STAFF NRE Knowledgebase, which, I quote, is "to help advisers understand and calculate excess fares."

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/contact/about_national_rail_enquiries.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Provide an example of the excess fare you need and the circumstances in which you require it and we'll have a look at what the NRCoC has to say about it.

I am unable to find anything in the NRCoC that tells customers how to calculate an excess fare for an over-distance excess, a change of class excess, etc...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I am unable to find anything in the NRCoC that tells customers how to calculate an excess fare for an over-distance excess, a change of class excess, etc...

That wasn't what was asked.


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[All Line Rover]

That wasn't what was asked.

Does the NRCoC have anything to say about an excess fare other than how to calculate it?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Does the NRCoC have anything to say about an excess fare other than how to calculate it?

Why not answer the question and we'll find out?


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[All Line Rover]

Why not answer the question and we'll find out?

I am not going to answer an unsubstantiated question. Rather than ask someone to find out the cost of an excess fare for me (which is the complete opposite of what I am asking) I would like someone to show me where I can find the information to do this myself. It's quite simple (at least it should be).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I am not going to answer an unsubstantiated question. Rather than ask someone to find out the cost of an excess fare for me (which is the complete opposite of what I am asking) I would like someone to show me where I can find the information to do this myself. It's quite simple (at least it should be).

It's a simple test to find out if the information is easily available. The fact you are unwilling to co-operate says a lot...


(for the record, I have no idea of the information is available or not, so I'd be very interested in the results)


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[All Line Rover]

It's a simple test to find out if the information is easily available. The fact you are unwilling to co-operate says a lot...


(for the record, I have no idea of the information is available or not, so I'd be very interested in the results)

Alright then, since you insist.

1. I have a Manchester to London "route Chesterfield" SOR at £196. I wish to travel with Virgin Trains on the return journey (during the Off-Peak, if this makes any difference). I turn up at Euston in the evening and request an excess fare - how much will this cost?

2. I have a Manchester to London SVR at £70. I wish to travel First Class on the return journey. I turn up at Euston in the evening and request an excess fare - how much will this cost?

I'm not an expert on excess fares, by any means! I don't even know if the above examples require excess fares, although I think they do. I do not want people to come back with a figure, but instead I want people to come back with some publicly available "instructions" from an official source, telling me how to work out the excess fares myself (which is what I've been requesting all along, and don't understand why I need to give some "examples" to get this information).

 

[RJ]

Alright then, since you insist.

1. I have a Manchester to London "route Chesterfield" SOR at £196. I wish to travel with Virgin Trains on the return journey (during the Off-Peak, if this makes any difference). I turn up at Euston in the evening and request an excess fare - how much will this cost?

2. I have a Manchester to London SVR at £70. I wish to travel First Class on the return journey. I turn up at Euston in the evening and request an excess fare - how much will this cost?

I'm not an expert on excess fares, by any means! I don't even know if the above examples require excess fares, although I think they do. I do not want people to come back with a figure, but instead I want people to come back with some publicly available "instructions" from an official source, telling me how to work out the excess fares myself (which is what I've been requesting all along, and don't understand why I need to give some "examples" to get this information).

1. Condition 13(e) tells you;

"If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b)
above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you​

to travel by that route".

So it's £69 as the Any Permitted SOR would have been £279.00. I CBA to check if this is a trick question so if this ticket is valid on Virgin due to some rule somewhere, feel free to correct me.

2. The way the upgrade is calculated is readily available on NRE - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times...irst_class_upgrade.html#upgrading_first_class

 

[All Line Rover]

1. Condition 13(e) tells you;

"If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b)
above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you​

to travel by that route".

So it's £69 as the Any Permitted SOR would have been £279.00. I CBA to check if this is a trick question so if this ticket is valid on Virgin due to some rule somewhere, feel free to correct me.

It does not explain what I should do when wanting to upgrade in one direction only. And what would happen if I wanted to return during the evening Peak?

2. The way the upgrade is calculated is readily available on NRE - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times...irst_class_upgrade.html#upgrading_first_class

This doesn't seem to make sense.

NRE: "Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak - simply pay the difference between the fare paid [£70] and the Standard Anytime Return [£279] PLUS the difference between the Standard Anytime Single [£139.50] and the First Anytime Single [£199.50] fare. It may be cheaper to buy a new First Class Single fare."

£279-£70 = £209. £199.50-£139.50 = £60. £209+£60 = £269 = more than the price of a First Anytime Single [£199].

I appreciate that NRE says "it may be cheaper to buy a new First Class Single fare," but some staff will charge half of the £209 since I am making a single journey. £104.50+£60 = £164.50 = less than the price of a First Anytime Single = makes sense. Does The Manual say exactly the same as NRE on this point?

I remain confused!