The Manual

[hairyhandedfool]

....For example, do many of the through bus-rail fares (not PlusBus) which used to be in the Rail-Links Manual three or four years ago still operate, for example? If they do, most train operators appear determined to keep them a secret....

I think most have become PlusBus, I know the Milton Keynes-Luton Airport bus hasn't (although Luton Bus, Leagrave Bus and Luton Airport Parkway Bus became PlusBus), but it seems NRES (and many TIS) completely ignores that information anyway.

Heathrow buses are probably still seperate, I'm not sure (without looking) what others there are.

 

[RJ]

Well, but surely not in its entirety, or as logically structured, judging by the number of times quotes from the manual pop up here to resolve issues? And also, again based on quotes here, sometimes the manual and national rail conflict, raising that interesting legal issue that if you don't disclose the T's & C's fully they can't apply.

There is a misunderstanding somewhere if you're under the impression that The Manual = the official T&Cs of the railway. Where did you get that idea from?

 

[bnm]

Heathrow buses are probably still seperate, I'm not sure (without looking) what others there are.

There must be hundreds. Just counting places beginning with A and B (excluding PLUSBUS), there are over 50.

 

[wintonian]

There is a misunderstanding somewhere if you're under the impression that The Manual = the official T&Cs of the railway. Where did you get that idea from?

I think the misunderstanding is with those TOC's that think that when the T&C's conflict they can choose the ones most favourable to them.

 

[RJ]

I think the misunderstanding is with those TOC's that think that when the T&C's conflict they can choose the ones most favourable to them.

Perhaps so and maybe an issue for a new thread. But it still stands that as The Manual does represents neither a definitive guide for passengers, nor definitive instructions for staff (these are provided by the TOC), any presumption of "rights" to access The Manual are null and void.

It seems that some on here are under the belief that every member of retail/revenue staff are supposed to take what is contained in The Manual as gospel and thus access will allow them to tell staff how to do their job correctly. This is not the case and this point is something that needs to be repeated until it sinks in!

 

[wintonian]

Perhaps so and maybe an issue for a new thread. But it still stands that as The Manual does represents neither a definitive guide for passengers, nor definitive instructions for staff (these are provided by the TOC), any presumption of "rights" to access The Manual are null and void.

It seems that some on here are under the belief that every member of retail/revenue staff are supposed to take what is contained in The Manual as gospel and thus access will allow them to tell staff how to do their job correctly. This is not the case and this point is something that needs to be repeated until it sinks in!

I'll repeat this point that was made earlier.

If the NRE website was easy to use, contained all the information that was accurate and relevant to passengers in a format easy to understand then I doubt most people on here would want to read through the manual - they certainly wouldn't need to.

 

[RJ]

I'll repeat this point that was made earlier.

If the NRE website was easy to use, contained all the information that was accurate and relevant to passengers in a format easy to understand then I doubt most people on here would want to read through the manual - they certainly wouldn't need to.

And given that The Manual is not definitive, it kind of contradicts the point that other posters are making about having a right to access it.

NRE is easy to use for the majority of people. Avantix Traveller has also been provided to the public. What is available in The Manual, that is not available on NRE, on sites linked to through NRE or Avantix Traveller?

 

[All Line Rover]

Perhaps so and maybe an issue for a new thread. But it still stands that as The Manual does represents neither a definitive guide for passengers, nor definitive instructions for staff (these are provided by the TOC), any presumption of "rights" to access The Manual are null and void.

It seems that some on here are under the belief that every member of retail/revenue staff are supposed to take what is contained in The Manual as gospel and thus access will allow them to tell staff how to do their job correctly. This is not the case and this point is something that needs to be repeated until it sinks in!

The public do not need to tell staff what to do - that is the job of the TOC! People seem to be missing an obvious point here, which I will reiterate. What reason is there that prevents ATOC from making The Manual publicly available? Not a single reason has been given. People claim that it is not necessary to make The Manual publicly available, but then, why is it necessary to keep it secret. Claiming that it is a "staff resource" even though it contains information that is relevant to the passenger is not a good enough reason in my opinion.

 

[RJ]

The public do not need to tell staff what to do - that is the job of the TOC! People seem to be missing an obvious point here, which I will reiterate. What reason is there that prevents ATOC from making The Manual publicly available? Not a single reason has been given. People claim that it is not necessary to make The Manual publicly available, but then, why is it necessary to keep it secret. Claiming that it is a "staff resource" even though it contains information that is relevant to the passenger is not a good enough reason in my opinion.

In that case, why not write a politely worded letter to ATOC asking why? They're the only ones who can provide a definitive answer either way. "Not a single answer has been given" is probably owing to the fact that people are asking in the wrong place. I'm not fussed really, all fares information I could ever need can be found in Avantix Traveller, or at a ticket office, or through NRE on the telephone. Avantix Traveller and the NRG are publicly available. Anything to do with rules concerning revenue matters can be found in the various documents which form the passenger/TOC contract. I largely suspect it's the same for all posters to this thread. If retail staff can get by without using it, nobody else needs it either!

At this point I should mention that I'm no more involved with the retail side of things than any other enthusiast on here - but I get by without feeling the need to constantly raise grievances with the way things are. It's fairly likely that some of the people complaining in this thread already have access to The Manual through someone who has been giving out logins to it - leading me to believe that some people like complaining just for the sake of it!

 

[Minilad]

I would imagine most large organisations have some sort of manual. Do the people who seem to think the railway manual should be available also think Boots or John Lewis or Tesco should also make theirs available to the general public
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The public do not need to tell staff what to do - that is the job of the TOC! People seem to be missing an obvious point here, which I will reiterate. What reason is there that prevents ATOC from making The Manual publicly available? Not a single reason has been given. People claim that it is not necessary to make The Manual publicly available, but then, why is it necessary to keep it secret. Claiming that it is a "staff resource" even though it contains information that is relevant to the passenger is not a good enough reason in my opinion.

Turn that on it's head then. Why do you feel you should have access to it

 

[michael769]

I would imagine most large organisations have some sort of manual. Do the people who seem to think the railway manual should be available also think Boots or John Lewis or Tesco should also make theirs available to the general public

The companies you name do not receive substantial subsidies from taxpayers though. It is not unreasonable to expect that organisations that do get a subsidy from taxpayers should be fully accountable to us for their activities.

 

[AlterEgo]

Some TOCs make a net contribution to the State. So they ought to be exempt according to your logic.

Passenger information is fairly poor in the industry. It ought to be improved, and I suggest NRES be overhauled and properly monitored to achieve this aim. I disagree that staff manuals ought to be made public. Would you like train driving manuals and copies of the Rules to be public?

If the public have unfettered access to the Manual, they would be totally overwhelmed with unnecessary information. Taking the train may appear more complicated than it actually is. There are parts of the Manual which do not belong on the public domain for a variety of reasons.

 

[ainsworth74]

Some TOCs make a net contribution to the State. So they ought to be exempt according to your logic.

The manual is published by ATOC I believe? In which case it doesn't really matter that some individual TOCs contribute to the state as the Railway as a whole (as represented by ATOC) is a net debtor of the state.

 

[All Line Rover]

Turn that on it's head then. Why do you feel you should have access to it

Because it contains a lot of relevant information that a small percentage of passengers would find useful (just like the RG and Avantix Traveller) and if it was publicly available it would save me having to ring NRE and talk to some dumb idiot (no other word for it - unfortunately) who doesn't understand what I'm asking for! :roll:

 

[Minilad]

The companies you name do not receive substantial subsidies from taxpayers though. It is not unreasonable to expect that organisations that do get a subsidy from taxpayers should be fully accountable to us for their activities.

So by that logic all government departments. I therefore demand access to all government papers

 

[All Line Rover]

I would imagine most large organisations have some sort of manual. Do the people who seem to think the railway manual should be available also think Boots or John Lewis or Tesco should also make theirs available to the general public

No, because such "manuals" do not contain any information that the public need to know (even a minority of the public). However, The Manual contains a great deal of information that some of the public want to know (and should be able to know), but this information is very difficult to access unless you want to ring NRE about 20 times until you find someone with a tiny bit of knowledge and an understandable accent!

 

[RJ]

No, because such "manuals" do not contain any information that the public need to know (even a minority of the public). However, The Manual contains a great deal of information that some of the public want to know (and should be able to know), but this information is very difficult to access unless you want to ring NRE about 20 times until you find someone with a tiny bit of knowledge and an understandable accent!

Go on then, give us some examples and we'll see if it's possible to find the same information in the public domain in one form or another!

 

[Minilad]

Because it contains a lot of relevant information that a small percentage of passengers would find useful (just like the RG and Avantix Traveller) and if it was publicly available it would save me having to ring NRE and talk to some dumb idiot (no other word for it - unfortunately) who doesn't understand what I'm asking for! :roll:

Such as

 

[ainsworth74]

So by that logic all government departments. I therefore demand access to all government papers

No because government papers can have a wealth of security issues for example, or could endanger relations with other nations (depending on content), or could cause problems in contract negotiations with industry and those are just a few issues that come to mind that would rightly prevent the automatic release of government papers.

But does anything in The Manual have similar implications if it were released into the public domain?

 

[All Line Rover]

Go on then, give us some examples and we'll see if it's possible to find the same information in the public domain in one form or another!

Yes, of course. Please try and find some information regarding Virgin's offer of relaxing Peak restrictions for tickets accompanied by a Railcard, that is available on an official resource (not just, say, Virgin's Facebook page!) in the public domain. I await a response!

I do have some idea of what is contained in The Manual as the website is searchable, but without a login I am unable to access any of the articles that appear.

 

[RJ]

Yes, of course. Please try and find some information regarding Virgin's offer of relaxing Peak restrictions for tickets accompanied by a Railcard, that is available on an official resource (not just, say, Virgin's Facebook page!) in the public domain.

1. Avantix Traveller
2. Try booking a fare on NRE with a railcard discount. It will show the Off Peak price at any time if it fulfills the criteria, which I see have changed since the last time I looked.

 

[All Line Rover]

1. Avantix Traveller
2. Try booking a fare on NRE with a railcard discount. It will show the Off Peak price at any time if it fulfills the criteria, which I see have changed since the last time I looked.

1. The information in Avantix Traveller is out of date.

2. I don't call that a "source of information." It's a bit like saying: "To find out the times that the minimum fare applies for a 16-25 Railcard, just try searching for different journeys on NRE!" NRE also doesn't mention the offer - it just sells the ticket.

If The Manual was publicly available as a PDF on the NRE website, this information would be available at the touch of a button (almost). Currently, it is not.

Again I ask, why can The Manual not be publicly available? Finding information would be so simple!

 

[mallard]

1. Avantix Traveller
2. Try booking a fare on NRE with a railcard discount. It will show the Off Peak price at any time if it fulfills the criteria, which I see have changed since the last time I looked.

Avantix Traveller costs money. Customers should not have to pay extra to know the details of the product they are buying!

NFM doesn't show the full extent and details of Virgin's relaxation. If you know it, you can confirm it, but you'd never be able to find out about it that way.

Those saying that "The Manual" is "not definitive" maybe technically correct, but that's not what many rail staff seem to believe. Remember that the enforcement of "rules" (whether actual rules, "company policy" or things made up on the spot by staff) heavily favours the TOCs against the customer. Anything that makes customers better informed is another tool in helping them avoid the traps set by ruthless TOCs. Claiming that it would give the impression that the railway rules are more complex than they really are is complete nonsense, it would just dispel the myth that there is anything "simple" about the railways and possibly (although I don't hold out much hope for it, unless it's accompanied by large price increases) encourage ATOC to make a genuine effort to simplify them.

For all those arguing against its release with arguments like "it's a staff reference", "you can get all the information from NRE/telesales" (fat chance!), "it would just confuse people" and "nobody would use it", please explain why these arguments apply particularly to "The Manual" and not the the RG.

 

[All Line Rover]

For all those arguing against its release with arguments like "it's a staff reference", "you can get all the information from NRE/telesales" (fat chance!), "it would just confuse people" and "nobody would use it", please explain why these arguments apply particularly to "The Manual" and not the the RG.

Good point! Try getting someone at NRE to tell you what the permitted routes for a ticket are! :roll: (I should tell Passenger Focus to include this test in their next report. )

 

[AlterEgo]

Again I ask, why can The Manual not be publicly available? Finding information would be so simple!

It would be even simpler if Virgin's Railcard easement was to be found on National Rail Enquiries. But everyone has discounted this apparently simple fix and seems to be obsessed about making the Manual public, which is a far more complicated fix!!

 

[barrykas]

Would you like train driving manuals and copies of the Rules to be public?

Funny you should say that, given the Railway Rule Book and supporting Group Standards ARE available on a public website, and the printers will even send you a copy through the post in exchange for money, ditto the Sectional Appendices (or should that be Appendixes?), though in the latter case you won't get the updates that have occurred since they were printed.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[mallard]

It would be even simpler if Virgin's Railcard easement was to be found on National Rail Enquiries. But everyone has discounted this apparently simple fix and seems to be obsessed about making the Manual public, which is a far more complicated fix!!

That's just one example of what's at least suspected to be many rules/clarifications/etc. that appear only in the manual. What's needed is for someone to go through the manual with a fine-toothed comb and make sure all the information in it is available clearly to the public.

Unfortunately, there's no money in that, so it won't happen.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's just one example of what's at least suspected to be many rules/clarifications/etc. that appear only in the manual. What's needed is for someone to go through the manual with a fine-toothed comb and make sure all the information in it is available clearly to the public.

Yes, and it could be put onto a centralised and well publicised website that could lay claim to being the definitive rail travel guide to the public....

Oh.

The Manual isn't definitive. It's a guide to retail staff.

 

[mallard]

The Manual isn't definitive. It's a guide to retail staff.

Tell that to the staff. They will (not unreasonably) assume that what's written in it is correct unless presented with evidence to the contrary. Very difficult to come up with that evidence when you're being challenged by an RPI and in danger of missing your connection...

At least making it public will allow mistakes to be spotted and corrected more easily.

 

[sheff1]

The Manual isn't definitive.

Agreed. But it seems some think it is. I have seen various posts on here where people have said 'The Manual says...' and believe that ends the argument for good.

Of course, as you and others say, there is no need for the Manual to be publicly available if NRES was both fully comprehensive and updated as things changed.