The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

[Tetchytyke]

We as lefties have to acknowledge that. I think, sadly, we are beyond tyring to explain. We have to do something and be seen to do something. Same as the boats.

You are very probably right. The misinformation and the lies have been allowed to take hold to such an extent that any attempt to explain is little more than urinating into a stiff breeze.

I've not done this for fifteen years (though it's getting scarily close, where has the time gone) and would 100% echo this. I've told a lot of people how much they'll actually get and they struggle to believe I'm telling the truth.

I've not done it for five years now and it's amazing how quickly one's knowledge starts to fade. Replaced with all the minutiae of the job I do now.

I understand why people don't understand it. It's very complicated. And there is a kernel of truth in the stories of benefit cheats. I'd say about 5% of my benefits clients were almost certainly completely on the fiddle with maybe another 5% slightly over-egging their pudding, shall we say. Of course this 5% are the ones who know the descriptors and know the magic words to say. It's the genuine ones who turn up with the 'mustn't grumble' attitude that get completely rogered by the system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2025 ==

Just to echo what @ainsworth74 has said.

To get standard rate PIP mobility element you must score a minimum of 8 points combined across the following two descriptor categories. To get enhanced rate PIP mobility element, which is the payment which gives you eligibility for the Motability scheme, you need to score a minimum of 12 points combined across the two categories. You only get one set of points for each heading, so if you meet more than one descriptor in a category you take the points from the highest scoring descriptor.

The mobility descriptors are under two categories:
Planning and following journeys (broadly this is the intellectual disability and mental illness category); and
Moving around (broadly this is the physical impairment category).

Planning and following a journey:
Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided 0 points
Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant 4 points
Cannot plan the route of a journey 8 points
Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog, or orientation aid 10 points
Cannot undertake any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant 10 points
Cannot follow the route of a familiar journey without another person, an assistance dog, or an orientation aid 12 points

Note the use of 'any journey' in the psychological distress categories. If you can just about make it to the shop at the end of the street but you'd have overwhelming distress if you went further then you don't meet the descriptor.

Moving around:
Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided 0 points
Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided 4 points
Can stand and then move unaided for more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres 8 points
Can stand and then move using an aid or applicance for more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres 10 points
Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided 12 points
Cannot, either aided or unaided, stand or move more than 1 metre 12 points

Note that most of these descriptors are "aided or unaided". Aids can include things like walking sticks, walkers, or crutches. They can also include prosthetic limbs. Someone with an amputated leg very probably wouldn't qualify for any level of PIP mobility element.

A wheelchair isn't an aid, although the DWP went through a phase of trying to argue that it was.

Also note the distances. 20 metres is the length of a single Class 350 carriage. The coffee machine in my office is more than 20 metres away.

 

[Brubulus]

90% of Motability cars do not have significant adaptations. Why does Motability need to provide tax exempt unadapted vehicles. I'm all for a specialised nonprofit that has tax exemptions to help provide substantially adapted vehicles for those who need them. If a PIP recipient does not need a substantially adapted vehicle, that can be arranged through the commercial sector and without the tax exemptions of Motability. I have no issue with those who genuinely need adaptations having luxury vehicles, if they pay above the standard rate. On the other hand, I don't see why Motability should be subsidised for the supply of unadapted vehicles, regardless of value.

 

[Falcon1200]

I should imagine the last bus from Uplawmoor is at 15h40 because any later journeys were so poorly patronised that they could not be afforded any longer.

It looks to be more that the operator, Shuttle Buses, is based in Kilwinning which is where the Drivers and vehicles on the 395 Uplawmoor/East Kilbride service start and finish their day; In fact the first departure from and last two arrivals at Uplawmoor are advertised through to or from Kilwinning, as 495. Even the simple option of the last two arrivals at Uplawmoor forming a service just back to Neilston, for train connections, has not been adopted. One day I might use my bus pass on the 495 and see who, if anybody, uses it......

 

[Broucek]

The biggest unfairness is no VAT on paying more for a nicer vehicle. I have no problem with people being able to upgrade at extra cost but I don't see why a disabled person should pay less than someone able bodied for a bigger engine, a fancy stereo or some leather seats...

 

[martin butler]

Labour is currently on a hiding to nothing, why try to appeal to people who are never going to vote for you anyway, and alienate those who do? The media, owned as it is by very wealthy people, have sold out to the populists, who can openly lie, and nothing is done to force accountability, I actually think that there needs to be reform of the rules over social media, and real consequences for those who publish lies, knowing very well that they are lies,

 

[RT4038]

It looks to be more that the operator, Shuttle Buses, is based in Kilwinning which is where the Drivers and vehicles on the 395 Uplawmoor/East Kilbride service start and finish their day; In fact the first departure from and last two arrivals at Uplawmoor are advertised through to or from Kilwinning, as 495. Even the simple option of the last two arrivals at Uplawmoor forming a service just back to Neilston, for train connections, has not been adopted. One day I might use my bus pass on the 495 and see who, if anybody, uses it......

The service is subsidised by Strathclyde Partnership for Transport, who will no doubt set the timetable for the operator, so it is Government specification in action. Clearly SPT do not see the (economic) purpose of additional later departures from Uplawmoor. Why not write to them with your suggestions - perhaps they have some spare funds to operate additional service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's exactly the same as the misinformation about immigrants being "put up in four star hotels".

I love the way some were suggesting a Britannia hotel was four star. In most cases I would suggest one star would be excessively generous for that chain.

 

[Tetchytyke]

90% of Motability cars do not have significant adaptations. Why does Motability need to provide tax exempt unadapted vehicles.

Because, for the umpteenth time, not everyone with serious mobility issues needs an adapted car.

Also, ironically, not everyone who needs an adapted car is eligible for Motability. People with no legs but who can use prosthesis, for instance. They would likely need hand controls for a car but wouldn’t get PIP.

On the other hand, I don't see why Motability should be subsidised for the supply of unadapted vehicles, regardless of value.

Motability isn’t subsidised. It makes a healthy surplus every year. It has about four billion quid in reserves.

Truthfully, the main reason why Motability can offer better prices is because they buy a lot of cars, so they have negotiated preferential rates with the car manufacturers. Motability certainly don’t pay book price, put it that way.

What makes me laugh is the ones up in arms about VAT on Motability leases being an unfair subsidy are the same ones who were up in arms that VAT was applied to private schooling because we shouldn’t consider a VAT exemption as a subsidy. Make your mind up folks!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2025 ==

I love the way some were suggesting a Britannia hotel was four star. In most cases I would suggest one star would be excessively generous for that chain.

You couldn’t pay me to stay in a Britannia Hotel. I’d rather take my chances in Aleppo.

The one I stayed in was a Holiday Inn though I’m not going to say where. They certainly didn’t get the Holiday Inn experience though, having to use the loading bay to come in and out of the hotel. The only shared facility was the lift. I can’t imagine being a family of five trying to live in a Holiday Inn standard room, but apparently according to the Daily Mail they’re getting luxury.

 

[TravelDream]

Labour is currently on a hiding to nothing, why try to appeal to people who are never going to vote for you anyway, and alienate those who do? The media, owned as it is by very wealthy people, have sold out to the populists, who can openly lie, and nothing is done to force accountability, I actually think that there needs to be reform of the rules over social media, and real consequences for those who publish lies, knowing very well that they are lies,

Yes, but Labour feels the need to chase voters who have gone to Reform - many of whom are not coming back anytime soon.
The PLP is also massively split between lefties and those on the right which is why, even with their massive majority, they can't get anything mildly controversial through.

I love the way some were suggesting a Britannia hotel was four star. In most cases I would suggest one star would be excessively generous for that chain.

Very fair point.

I visited the Adelphi in Liverpool not too long ago (not out of my own choice!). Whilst the outside is pretty grand and it is very well located, it's in a massive state inside. And I am told that is one of their better properties.


But with hotels, like 'free BMWs', a lot of it is optics. When ordinary people are struggling to feed their families or not turning the heating on to save money, is it any surprise they become peeved when they know illegal immigrants/ asylum seekers are staying in hotels and getting three meals a day for free? People can come back and say, well, it's not that good or asylum seekers don't have any choice, they may very well be right. But that in no way changes the optics.
One of the major problems our politics has had over the last decade or two is politicians saying one thing and doing another. Yes, it's always happened. But the world is different today than the past and information (and, indeed, misinformation) a lot more accessible. This is another issue Labour has and we can all see this 'change' is actually 'continuity'

Motability isn’t subsidised. It makes a healthy surplus every year. It has about four billion quid in reserves.

It's massively subsidized by the taxpayer to the tune of several thousand pounds per lease due to not paying VAT and not paying IPT. So to say it isn't subsidized is just totally wrong.

Note PIP is also not taxed too unlike New JSA or the state pension. This is despite the fact millionaires can get PIP. So a subsidy on a subsidy for, potentially, the wealthiest in society.

I know you have a very strong feeling that PIP and Motability are sacrosanct and it's heinous to even suggest that the taxpayer are providing free cars, but it's currently going down like a bag of cold sick among a large section of the right-wing press reading/ following public (and most of our press is that). Those are the electors who might very well give us a Reform government next time around.

What would a Reform government do different to Labour?
They obviously talk a lot about foreigners, but cutting benefits for non-citizens wouldn't really save much in the grand scheme of things. A lot of the figures touted don't stand up to scrutiny.
We'd probably still see bungs to pensioners. Even though Farage wouldn't guarantee the triple lock the other day, he still knows they are the bedrock of his party's support.
But we'd also likely see swinging cuts to benefits from 'layabouts' or 'scroungers'. For those with mental health issues, PIP will be gone in almost all cases; and I can only see requirements being made stricter for others. OTOH some benefits may increase and I could see things like the two-child cap gone.
They'd also want a 'work pays' series of policies. Likely seeing income tax/ NI cuts/ threshold rises, and some policies to ensure nobody on benefits gets more than NMW. Given they want to cut NMW for some, that would mean benefits would have to really be squeezed. Though even they realise our public finances are in a state and they wouldn't want the effects of a Truss Mk.II budget.
But it's going to be a lot of nastiness no matter what.

 

[Egg Centric]

What makes me laugh is the ones up in arms about VAT on Motability leases being an unfair subsidy are the same ones who were up in arms that VAT was applied to private schooling because we shouldn’t consider a VAT exemption as a subsidy. Make your mind up folks!

I've never said that, I don't have any particular view on VAT re: private schooling. I suspect it's a poor policy decision, but I could be wrong about that - depends on how the the extra tax balances against the extra state school places needed, essentially. It doesn't seem very important on a national level one way or the other.

 

[martin butler]

I can't see Reform having that much of a majority, to be able to do much, except scapegoat, and a reform government would collapse very quickly, after facing a vote of no confidence, it would be chaos and the markets don't like chaos, every cut will be challenged both in the house, and at the courts, I suspect it would lose, most if not all really damaging attempts to set us against each other, because that's all they have, MP's will resign in droves, once they realise that the public, don't support their policies, and that being an MP is hard work, but it's something that needs to happen, reform, have to be beaten by their own ineptness, supporters have to realise, like Brexit, that they voted to make their own lives worse,

 

[Bantamzen]

In the end if you want to live somewhere like that you need a car. If that car is an EV and is driven to a suitable railhead or bus P&R then it isn't causing any harm, indeed far less than running a stinking old diesel bus around all day with nobody on it. If you choose not to drive or can't drive for medical reasons, you need to consider where you choose to live and possibly move.

The most you can really justify for very rural places that aren't near a road that has a bus service anyway is a once a week shopper's return journey, really, so nobody is stuck unable to obtain basic food etc. People do need to take a bit of responsibility for their own choices.

There isn't infinite money, and providing high quality public transport service to places like this is not a good use of public funds.

Ah but here's the thing, whilst having buses service every little hamlet all day & night wouldn't be economical, many villages lie roughly along main routes between larger towns and cities. What has happened in the past is in many places is that services that ran between towns, and serving villages along the way, have started to avoid said villages and reduced the overall usage. Bus companies have then used these passenger reductions to justify further cutbacks, meaning even less use and more excuses to cut further. And it can reach extreme points, where there are days when even the towns lose all services. Northwich close to where I live on a Sunday is one example. Despite a growing population (and upwards of 10K more planned), it's a town that has managed to lose all Sunday bus services to anywhere (and have only a bi-hourly train service), and weekday evenings don't fair much better with only one route seeing anything much after 18:30.

The result, more people turn to cars more often all the time as their perception of public transport is jaded to the point that they no longer trust it, and not just people living out in the sticks. This then erodes local economies as people can increasingly only get out about either by driving or taxis, which is not great for local businesses as footfall reduces as people get sick of fighting traffic, turning increasingly to online shopping and staying in. And of course more cars on the roads doesn't just mean more traffic jams, but worsening road quality as more & heavier cars slowly erode the services. Councils therefore then come under more pressure to increase road repairs, with shrinking budgets because local businesses are failing, because there is falling footfall to those business because increased car use makes it harder to reach them.... <and breath>

So I am not arguing that everywhere should have buses all the time, but there has to be a compromise. There are plenty of rural communities that could be served along main routes, even if that might require some level of local subsidy, which of course will be paid by the people. Wherever possible said services should link into other modes of transport and passenger flows, making their use more attractive. Otherwise as rural services disappear, bus companies then start to eye up services in more urban areas for cuts. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but Bradford is one city where this has played out, and got to the point that even getting to some urban areas a few miles from the centre was near impossible after about 20:00. At the end of the day, public transport should be run for the public, not for the convivence of the operator.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's massively subsidized by the taxpayer to the tune of several thousand pounds per lease due to not paying VAT and not paying IPT. So to say it isn't subsidized is just totally wrong.

A Pret sandwich is exempt from VAT if you take it away but isn’t if you eat in, so do you think we are subsidising the off-premises consumption of cheese and pickle baguettes?

but it's currently going down like a bag of cold sick among a large section of the right-wing press reading/ following public

Absolutely, because that section of the media are outright lying. The journalists know they are outright lying but they know that their readers don’t know.

If I thought the situation was as the Daily Mail reported it, I’d be fuming too.

My experience is that the people railing against the welfare benefit system will then be absolutely aghast when the ordure hits their fan and they lose their job or become disabled. Saw it too often in my old job.

It’s interesting to me how Labour wanted to cut PIP by 20% and were shouted down. Suddenly everyone is up in arms about Motability. Labour say they now want to put VAT on Motability leases. Which will be an effective cut of 20% on PIP. What a coincidence, eh.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Labour is currently on a hiding to nothing, why try to appeal to people who are never going to vote for you anyway, and alienate those who do? The media, owned as it is by very wealthy people, have sold out to the populists, who can openly lie, and nothing is done to force accountability, I actually think that there needs to be reform of the rules over social media, and real consequences for those who publish lies, knowing very well that they are lies,

Both of the main parties seem to lack any actual beliefs in anything - they follow what the latest opinion poll says, which results in them floundering around with no clear direction at all. Then when something becomes really controversial due to being unaddressed and ignored for years, they try to appease both sides and manage to alienate both. Migration is a clear example - whatever your view on this, you are not likely to be keen on the current Labour approach. They say they are going to get tougher on migration, which has the Guardian readers up in arms, then they fail to actually get much tougher at all, which has the Daily Mail readers up in arms. And repeat for whatever else happens to be a controversial issue of the day.

 

[AlterEgo]

I love the way some were suggesting a Britannia hotel was four star. In most cases I would suggest one star would be excessively generous for that chain.

Those hotels are to be actively avoided - by some distance Britain's worst hotel chain. Appalling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s interesting to me how Labour wanted to cut PIP by 20% and were shouted down. Suddenly everyone is up in arms about Motability. Labour say they now want to put VAT on Motability leases. Which will be an effective cut of 20% on PIP. What a coincidence, eh.

Massaging stuff like that isn't to be fair politically unusual. The classic is bringing your own cup to coffee places. If the menu says "a paper cup costs an additional 20p" people are up in arms, whereas if it says "20p discount for bringing your own cup" people are totally fine with that. Yet they are the exact same thing, you just adjust the base price so the effect is identical.

See also why £1.99 sounds a lot less than £2.00 (though I know that had other reasons too - making sure the till had to be opened to give change and so the staff couldn't pocket it).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2025 ==

Those hotels are to be actively avoided - by some distance Britain's worst hotel chain. Appalling.

Yep, I'd rather kip on a bench in Piccadilly Gardens than disgrace myself with the Manchester Britannia, and Sacha's is even worse. Definitely not luxury accommodation for immigrants - really the lowest of the low!

 

[TravelDream]

A Pret sandwich is exempt from VAT if you take it away but isn’t if you eat in, so do you think we are subsidising the off-premises consumption of cheese and pickle baguettes?

That is totally incomparable.

Disabled people, like everyone else, pay VAT on car purchases/ car leases and they pay insurance premium tax. This scheme always people in receipt of PIP to avoid both. A massive state sponsored subsidy.

The food eaten on premises/ taken-away comparison is silly. Though it is a prime example of the weirdness of the VAT system (the pasty tax a memorable right-wing newspaper talking point from not too long ago).

 

[styles]

The food eaten on premises/ taken-away comparison is silly. Though it is a prime example of the weirdness of the VAT system (the pasty tax a memorable right-wing newspaper talking point from not too long ago).

The pasty tax where David Cameron claimed his last pasty was recently from the West Cornwall Pasty Company at Leeds station, which had closed 2 years prior

Strange to look now and think actually Cameron wasn't so bad compared to the sleuth of crap PMs we've had since.

 

[Egg Centric]

Strange to look now and think actually Cameron wasn't so bad compared to the sleuth of crap PMs we've had since.

Apart from this one tiny thing...

 

[styles]

Apart from this one tiny thing...

Even Cameron admits he majorly messed up on that one!

 

[AlterEgo]

The pasty tax where David Cameron claimed his last pasty was recently from the West Cornwall Pasty Company at Leeds station, which had closed 2 years prior

Strange to look now and think actually Cameron wasn't so bad compared to the sleuth of crap PMs we've had since.

Yes it's bizarre. I have no idea if it's toxic nostalgia or not, but I saw George W Bush interviewed during Trump 1.0's term and was struck by what a warm and personable character he is and why can't we have American statespeople like that any more. It took me a while to remember how much I detested his actions as president and how much I'd really hate him to return, but seeing him in relief of Trump's lack of humanity and warmth was quite the contrast.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Yes it's bizarre. I have no idea if it's toxic nostalgia or not, but I saw George W Bush interviewed during Trump 1.0's term and was struck by what a warm and personable character he is and why can't we have American statespeople like that any more. It took me a while to remember how much I detested his actions as president and how much I'd really hate him to return, but seeing him in relief of Trump's lack of humanity and warmth was quite the contrast.

Trump hasn't (to date, anyway) started any unjustified invasions of middle-eastern countries.

 

[styles]

Trump hasn't (to date, anyway) started any unjustified invasions of middle-eastern countries.

I think he's too determined to get a Nobel Peace Prize to start any invasions tbh

 

[ainsworth74]

Just checking the thread title, give me a momoment...











...nope still says Labour Party and Kier Starmer up there. Not sure why we're suddenly talking about Trump and his desire for a Nobel Peace Prize

 

[TravelDream]

Yes it's bizarre. I have no idea if it's toxic nostalgia or not, but I saw George W Bush interviewed during Trump 1.0's term and was struck by what a warm and personable character he is and why can't we have American statespeople like that any more. It took me a while to remember how much I detested his actions as president and how much I'd really hate him to return, but seeing him in relief of Trump's lack of humanity and warmth was quite the contrast.

British politics has definitely become more divisive since Brexit.

Brexit is sort of a meaningless term so, as a blank canvas, people attached their own thoughts and beliefs to it. Whether that be zero immigration or freedom or economic growth or whatever else.
It's part of the reason parties, Labour and Reform being prime examples, keep talking about change. But with no idea where that change is going or what it even means.

And, be real, for all Starmer's talk of change, it's really been a continuity Johnson/ Sunak government.

 

[styles]

British politics has definitely become more divisive since Brexit.

Brexit is sort of a meaningless term so, as a blank canvas, people attached their own thoughts and beliefs to it. Whether that be zero immigration or freedom or economic growth or whatever else.
It's part of the reason parties, Labour and Reform being prime examples, keep talking about change. But with no idea where that change is going or what it even means.

And, be real, for all Starmer's talk of change, it's really been a continuity Johnson/ Sunak government.

I mean I prefer Starmer to Johnson or Sunak, but only in the sense that it appears to not be so ridiculously chaotic. We've just got such a low bar now that a boring, ineffectual lad like Starmer doesn't seem so bad.

 

[brad465]

British politics has definitely become more divisive since Brexit.

Brexit is sort of a meaningless term so, as a blank canvas, people attached their own thoughts and beliefs to it. Whether that be zero immigration or freedom or economic growth or whatever else.
It's part of the reason parties, Labour and Reform being prime examples, keep talking about change. But with no idea where that change is going or what it even means.

And, be real, for all Starmer's talk of change, it's really been a continuity Johnson/ Sunak government.

One of the biggest costs of Brexit no-one talks about much is the calibre of politicians it's enabled. Nobody competent wanted to deliver it, either because no competent Brexit-supporting politicians exist, and/or competent people saw the poison chalice trying to deliver it caused and stayed away. This then created an even more toxic political culture, which put off good competent people even after we had left the EU, so most of the ones left are by definition incompetent and/or naïve. This is compounded by the media focusing on the incompetence, as it sells more clicks, so even the good ones who are still around don't get attention.

 

[Egg Centric]

One of the biggest costs of Brexit no-one talks about much is the calibre of politicians it's enabled. Nobody competent wanted to deliver it, either because no competent Brexit-supporting politicians exist, and/or competent people saw the poison chalice trying to deliver it caused and stayed away. This then created an even more toxic political culture, which put off good competent people even after we had left the EU, so most of the ones left are by definition incompetent and/or naïve. This is compounded by the media focusing on the incompetence, as it sells more clicks, so even the good ones who are still around don't get attention.

Veey few sane and competent people want to be an MP full stop. It's much lower pay than they could get in the private sector, a ridiculous amount of "gotcha" type scrutiny that can ruin a career after decades because of saying the wrong thing as a teenager, a weirdly itinerant lifestyle, little job security, hob nobbing with ghastly think tank types and people who go "ya" in the evenings, half the public hate you...

 

[bleeder4]

Veey few sane and competent people want to be an MP full stop. It's much lower pay than they could get in the private sector, a ridiculous amount of "gotcha" type scrutiny that can ruin a career after decades because of saying the wrong thing as a teenager, a weirdly itinerant lifestyle, little job security, hob nobbing with ghastly think tank types and people who go "ya" in the evenings, half the public hate you...

Indeed. I am repeatedly amazed that anyone would want to be an MP at all. Even just being a public figure. There is so much expectation these days to always say and do whatever the current right thing is viewed as being, and the slightest slip-up could end it all forever.

 

[brad465]

Indeed. I am repeatedly amazed that anyone would want to be an MP at all.

A combination of naivety and/or the moonlighting, especially if you're a backbencher in the governing party(ies), then for life after parliament, after dinner speaking and/or advisory roles. MPs can earn several multiples of their MP salary in such jobs; ordinary people and even experienced employees of the same companies would be shunned because they don't have the inside knowledge of getting close to ministers.