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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

jfollows

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Thank you.
The comment that struck me yesterday or the day before was along the lines of “Labour governments don’t want to be making the poor poorer” which I think is right, I’m not poor but I want to see governments, especially Labour ones, looking after people who are. I don’t understand what this government stands for, what its priorities are, which make it do things like this.
 
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RailUK Forums

Harpo

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I don’t understand what this government stands for, what its priorities are, which make it do things like this.
It’s certainly a most disappointing and un-Labour-like government in making two fatally flawed attacks on parts of society that it traditionally represented and protected. Labour seems to be replicating the Tory suicide pact and Reform will be delighted.
 

Acfb

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For historic reasons the Westminster parliament—I was going to write "our" parliament, but I wonder how many of us feel any sense of ownership of the institution—is laid out for a form of court-room battle, in which one side's objective is simply to prove the other wrong. That encourages the same sort of bullying techniques we see and experience every day in our courts and as much controlled rudeness and offence as the Speaker will permit. It's an interesting question as to how far a different layout might make parliament more consultative and deliberative, but any move in that direction seems to be effectively ruled out for the future by MPs who want to restore the "Palace" of Westminster exactly as it is, even at the most outrageous cost.

The Canadian Parliament is exactly the same. Pierre Poilievre even called Justin Trudeau 'wacko' last year and got rebuked by the speaker and was forced to leave and the whole Tory caucus followed him out.
 

Yew

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It’s certainly a most disappointing and un-Labour-like government in making two fatally flawed attacks on parts of society that it traditionally represented and protected. Labour seems to be replicating the Tory suicide pact and Reform will be delighted.
Indeed, if anything this feels more similar to Cameron's Conservatives, than traditional Labour policies.
 

brad465

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It’s certainly a most disappointing and un-Labour-like government in making two fatally flawed attacks on parts of society that it traditionally represented and protected. Labour seems to be replicating the Tory suicide pact and Reform will be delighted.
The advisors behind this at the very least need dismissing, including Morgan McSweeney. As I alluded to above, I've wondered if the latter has compromising material on Starmer that is keeping him heading up the No. 10 operation? Cummings very clearly had dirt on Johnson over Partygate, which explained the blind (pardon the pun) defending of Cummings by Johnson after the eye test.
The Canadian Parliament is exactly the same. Pierre Poilievre even called Justin Trudeau 'wacko' last year and got rebuked by the speaker and was forced to leave and the whole Tory caucus followed him out.
If ever there was an example of politicians being like sheep, this is it. If I was there I'd have been very tempted to make "baa" noises as they left.
 

J663738

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As others have pointed out.
1. why did she remain if she was so upset ?
2. why would leave tears on your cheeks and not wipe them away, if not for effect ?

I doubt it was just one personnel matter, more like a series of issues, both private and political that lead up to this incident.
The Labour party have a duty of care as her defacto employer, can you imagine a CEO giving a speech while the CFO was beside them crying and then criticising the media for bringing it up!

As for Kier Starmer's leadership, it reminds me of Theresa May, stumbling from one disaster to another.

I too expect a reshuffle, but if so, the biggest problem Kier Starmer will still remain, even though he doesn't look in control, there seems little alternative at the moment that won't scare the living day lights out of the Bond Markets
 

Sealink

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I didn't vote for Labour as in Dorset, tactical voting for LibDems was needed to replace our local Conservative MP, which worked. However I used to always vote Labour.
I saw Carol Voderman on TV yesterday, who very succinctly summed up Labour's current malaise.
She acknowledged that she had pushed tactical voting etc. but said (in summary) said that Labour are consistently giving themselves self-inflicted wounds.
It feels like the last days of a party in power, not the first year, and certainly not a party who won with such a majority. The Conservatives don't really have to do anything. Which is just as well, as they don't seem to be.
It's all very sad to me.
 
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Gloster

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As others have pointed out.
1. why did she remain if she was so upset ?
2. why would leave tears on your cheeks and not wipe them away, if not for effect ?

I doubt it was just one personnel matter, more like a series of issues, both private and political that lead up to this incident.
The Labour party have a duty of care as her defacto employer, can you imagine a CEO giving a speech while the CFO was beside them crying and then criticising the media for bringing it up!

As for Kier Starmer's leadership, it reminds me of Theresa May, stumbling from one disaster to another.

I too expect a reshuffle, but if so, the biggest problem Kier Starmer will still remain, even though he doesn't look in control, there seems little alternative at the moment that won't scare the living day lights out of the Bond Markets

Well, if Reeves hadn’t turned up the media and Twittersphere would have gone berserk with all sorts of speculation and conspiracy theories. Whether there was no explanation or a reasonable one that wouldn’t have stopped it and, as she is Chancellor, that might have caused concern in the City. If there is a specific matter that upset her badly or just created a situation that a minor telling off tipped her over the edge it may not be possible or prudent to mention it then or even later. (Hypothetical example: should she say, “My husband has just been told he has a week to live, but we haven’t told his mum yet.”) I suspect she was upset by things, but reckoned that she could sit the brickbats out, but the telling off by Mr Speaker just tipped her over. It was still better to stay in her seat, rather than leaving part way through, which would have set the speculation off again.

Badenoch showed her habitual bad judgement and willingness to pile in. If Reeves’ problem really is something serious, many people will not forget how Badenoch put the boot in. In cases like this, don’t criticise in the dark.
 

DarloRich

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This will upset many people, especially on the left - many voters are happy to see disability cuts. It may be a callous view and it may be mistaken but there are plenty of people I know who think there are skivers on disability when they are working thier backsides off to make ends meet.

There are stories, no doubt apocryphal, but common about people fit for SOME work taking the Michael. Shop mobility is an obvious example. I cant afford a nice car and am working all hours but that person over there who does nowt gets given a BMW free of charge. I suspect such stories are nonsense but they stick.

CLEARLY no one wants the truly disabled or inform to suffer but Reform are using this and things like the boats to appeal to people really struggling. Trying to win the moral argument simply wont work.

Well, if Reeves hadn’t turned up the media and Twittersphere would have gone berserk with all sorts of speculation and conspiracy theories. Whether there was no explanation or a reasonable one that wouldn’t have stopped it and, as she is Chancellor, that might have caused concern in the City. If there is a specific matter that upset her badly or just created a situation that a minor telling off tipped her over the edge it may not be possible or prudent to mention it then or even later. (Hypothetical example: should she say, “My husband has just been told he has a week to live, but we haven’t told his mum yet.”) I suspect she was upset by things, but reckoned that she could sit the brickbats out, but the telling off by Mr Speaker just tipped her over. It was still better to stay in her seat, rather than leaving part way through, which would have set the speculation off again.

Is the rather obvious correct answer. It isn't difficult to understand.
 

ainsworth74

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This will upset many people, especially on the left - many voters are happy to see disability cuts. It may be a callous view and it may be mistaken but there are plenty of people I know who think there are skivers on disability when they are working thier backsides off to make ends meet.

There are stories, no doubt apocryphal, but common about people fit for SOME work taking the Michael. Shop mobility is an obvious example. I cant afford a nice car and am working all hours but that person over there who does nowt gets given a BMW free of charge. I suspect such stories are nonsense but they stick.
It was the PIP cuts that were crackers and I reckon were starting to get traction as being crackers as they were just so obviously about saving money than anything else that the Government claimed. PIP is, after all, an in or out of work benefit so how can making changes encourage people to go to work? How can you introduce cuts before you've actually done any consultations? How can you do it without consulting the relevant people who will be most effected? And then to try and introduce a two-tier PIP system? Crackers and clearly not intended to be a well thought through reform.

The UC changes I'm much more ambivalent about but not massively opposed to. I know lots of people on the left and in the welfare right sector are up in arms about them but overall I don't think they're particularly problematic at first glance even if they're not quite how I'd go about things. Rebalancing the Standard Allowance so it's worth more whilst reducing the value of the (rebranded) "Health Element" so it's frozen for existing claimants and reduced for new ones is overall a good thing (I'd rather we froze it but left it available at the same rate for everyone new and existing) as it benefits far more people to have the increase in the Standard Allowance than will lose out through the Health Element being reduced (though it is a swinging cut as it goes down by £200pm for new claimants). Plus I think the move to put it on a statutory footing that if you try work and it doesn't work out it won't cause you to get reassessed and risk losing your money as a result is an excellent change as that is a really serious barrier at the moment to people trying work.

But this is yet another case of Labour manging to grab abject failure from the jaws of defeat. Not only did they come up with a set of not unreasonable plans (the UC changes), then introduce a set of penny pinching plans that they tried to dress up as helping people into work (the PIP changes) which was already pretty bad, they then bungled the politics of it so thoroughly that they faced the serious risk of a defeat in the Commons, earned no kudos for the positive changes from the public and ended up looking utterly incompetent. Brilliant work yet again.

If they'd left PIP alone and brought in the UC changes alone that might have upset the uber-left but most people would have been quite happy with them overall.
 

martin butler

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This will upset many people, especially on the left - many voters are happy to see disability cuts. It may be a callous view and it may be mistaken but there are plenty of people I know who think there are skivers on disability when they are working thier backsides off to make ends meet.

There are stories, no doubt apocryphal, but common about people fit for SOME work taking the Michael. Shop mobility is an obvious example. I cant afford a nice car and am working all hours but that person over there who does nowt gets given a BMW free of charge. I suspect such stories are nonsense but they stick.

CLEARLY no one wants the truly disabled or inform to suffer but Reform are using this and things like the boats to appeal to people really struggling. Trying to win the moral argument simply wont work.



Is the rather obvious correct answer. It isn't difficult to understand.
True, there are some who want to hurt those who can't fight back, because it somehow makes these people feel better about their own poor life choices, 99 per cent though are lies, when you look at the facts, it's very hard to qualify for any form of benefit, and things like mobility, are i would hope are very careful to ensure they do go to people who need it, but not every disability is visible, what might look able bodied to you or I, might have something that we don't see, how on one hand are people claiming PIP is nye on impossible to get, and yet social media is saying its a skivers paradise ? both can't be true
 

DarloRich

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True, there are some who want to hurt those who can't fight back, because it somehow makes these people feel better about their own poor life
that isn't the reason at all - if you ask most people will talk about fairness and how hard they are working to make ends meet but it is easy to say they are just picking on people. As lefties we have to engage with the criticism not attack the critic. They aren't, mostly, bad people but fellow lefties will immediately jump on the criticism rather than engage with the issue.

But this is yet another case of Labour manging to grab abject failure from the jaws of defeat. Not only did they come up with a set of not unreasonable plans (the UC changes), then introduce a set of penny pinching plans that they tried to dress up as helping people into work (the PIP changes) which was already pretty bad, they then bungled the politics of it so thoroughly that they faced the serious risk of a defeat in the Commons, earned no kudos for the positive changes from the public and ended up looking utterly incompetent. Brilliant work yet again


I think I agree.
 

ainsworth74

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True, there are some who want to hurt those who can't fight back, because it somehow makes these people feel better about their own poor life choices, 99 per cent though are lies, when you look at the facts, it's very hard to qualify for any form of benefit, and things like mobility, are i would hope are very careful to ensure they do go to people who need it, but not every disability is visible, what might look able bodied to you or I, might have something that we don't see, how on one hand are people claiming PIP is nye on impossible to get, and yet social media is saying its a skivers paradise ? both can't be true

I think there's a few factors at play. One of the biggies is just the demonisation, over many years, of benefit claimants in general and disability claimants in particular (young single female parents are another favourite but are actually an increasingly rare breed, teen pregnancy has fallen considerably even in Middlesbrough :lol: ) by various politicians and members of the media. Many will remember "Benefits Street" from the early austerity era for instance. So there is a perception built in that many claimants are, in someway, on the fiddle.

I think another factor is that many people don't have much interaction with the benefits system. For a lot of people their only interaction is likely to be Child Benefit and maybe a brief spell when they were young on Jobseekers Allowance (or, depending on age, Income Support, or even Unemployment Benefit going back far enough!). They don't have experience of the wider benefits system and particularly the system as it is now nor what the assessments for something like PIP are actually like. So it's easy to assume that what you hear ("It's all scroungers innit?", "BENEFIT CHEAT CLAIMED THEY WERE BED BOUND WHILST ENJOYING HOLIDAYS IN COSTA DEL SOL AT OUR EXPENSE", etc etc) is the norm rather than the exception. It's also easy to assume there's more support than there is. I've had to have the difficult conversations with someone who was in a reasonable well paying job who has now lost it due to down turn in business or ill-health or needing to stay home to look after kids that the support they'll get from the State is peanuts compared to what they were on before ("How will I pay my mortgage?", "You're going to need to have a conversation with your mortgage lender...").

I reckon you can also couple to that that there are issues with the DWP and their assessors being wildly inconsistent. I have helped people apply who, in my opinion, had a clear entitlement to PIP but we had to fight tooth and nail all the way to the independent Tribunal Service to get an award. I've had other people who I think have got at best a flimsy case sail through the assessment and gain an award. So people pick up on that I think in the wider world and it influences their perceptions. I've even heard it myself "Why I am a struggling when I've got all this wrong with me but my neighbour who is nowhere near as bad got it no problem?". There is no good answer other than the assessments are just inconsistent in the extreme.

Also the assessments are just not a very good measure of what someone's functional ability is. If I wanted to make a fraudulent claim for PIP I basically know exactly how to do it (I won't relate it here however, though it's not tricky) in such a way as to ensure that an assessor will probably make an award. That's simply because most assessors are so biased in their opinions that if you just play into those biases your home free. If you actually wanted to assess people properly you'd consult far more closely the medical information that's available on file via the GP and then have a sit down conversation with them as a decision maker (not a health assessor) about what they struggle with and why. You'd do a far better job of weeding out those who are trying it on whilst making sure that those that actually meet the criteria don't get messed around.

But, like so much of Government, the DWP are all about making decisions as quickly as possible and fixing mistakes later whilst also outsourcing as much of the decision making as possible. For instance the assessments for PIP are done by private contractors on behalf of the DWP. Officially they provide "advice" to the DWP on the criteria someone meets. In reality the DWP simply rubber stamp whatever has been advised by the assessor. Rather than coming up with a process that actual delivers accurate results at the time of asking. This is no doubt considered to be cheaper and more efficient on the spreadsheets. I reckon it's neither compared to doing things properly the first time.

You mix all that together and you end up in a position where it's possible for it to both be hard to qualify for PIP but for there to also be an perception that many are on the fiddle. Quite apart from then adding issues of hidden disabilities into the mix as well ("You don't look disabled? How can you be on PIP?")!
 

jfollows

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Interesting posts, thank you for the insight.

My last interaction with the benefits system was because of my rent and income as a student in London in 1984.

So I am lucky.

Of course some claimants play the system, and some could work, but it seems to me that the reasonable aim of getting more people on benefits “back into work” has been mishandled enormously. No real explanation of why, other than saving money, and a recent proposal to pay future claimants less than current ones seemed very wrong.

A proper review is not bad, should have been done all along. Come up with reasoned proposals based on logic and implement them.

I know my taxes will go up, that was one of the inevitable outcomes of the last election, but Labour keeps pretending otherwise.
 

ainsworth74

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Of course some claimants play the system, and some could work, but it seems to me that the reasonable aim of getting more people on benefits “back into work” has been mishandled enormously. No real explanation of why, other than saving money, and a recent proposal to pay future claimants less than current ones seemed very wrong.
One of the issues with that is that a lot of the low hanging fruit has already been claimed. Anyone who was just cruising on benefits has almost certainly been gotten off and into work by making the system more hostile and also by holding down the value of most working age benefits for many years (particularly as inflation has risen rapidly in the last few years). I'm not saying there isn't anyone who isn't just on the fiddle and happy living a life on benefits but that's going to be approaching rounding error levels of abuse of the benefits system in most areas and is most cases is probably more just outright fraud these days (working cash in hand and not declaring it whilst also claiming benefits on top, big nono for Universal Credit which is means tested).

So that leaves behind the big morass of people who probably could work with the right support but they are, by definition, the most difficult people to get back into work precisely because there is some sort of complex need in play. The existing Jobcentre system is not geared up to really support those people (and has spent so long being a place of fear that they will be hard to engage with anyway). Similarly all attempts to engage private contractors have fallen flat on the backside for the usual reasons that outsourcing does (and also have terrible reputations with claimants), indeed I seem to recall one such scheme had a lower rate of getting people into work than if they'd done nothing at all! Then finally that presumes that you can find employers who are willing and able to take on people with complex needs. Of course the Equality Act is there to prevent outright discrimination but unless the employer is an actual imbecile it'll never be possible to prove they failed to recruit that person because of their disabilities. This will not be improved if the proposed cuts to the Access to Work scheme go through (this provides funding to help employers make adjustments for disabled employees).

We've gone beyond the point at which just beating people with sticks saying "Get back to work you lazy scrounger" is likely to be effective and are now stuck with trying to help people with complex needs access the workforce which is not going to be easy.

Again, there are definitely some who are just on the fiddle, but they're a very small number so in terms of reducing the benefits bill make very little difference.
 

styles

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I think there's a few factors at play. One of the biggies is just the demonisation, over many years, of benefit claimants in general and disability claimants in particular (young single female parents are another favourite but are actually an increasingly rare breed, teen pregnancy has fallen considerably even in Middlesbrough :lol: ) by various politicians and members of the media. Many will remember "Benefits Street" from the early austerity era for instance. So there is a perception built in that many claimants are, in someway, on the fiddle.
I suspect this is partly because benefits fraud is quite.. visible?

People who go down the pub talking about their mobility benefits but are seen going on 12mi walks down the coast are highly visible.

It only takes an argument with one neighbour who knows you claim, for a report to be put in to DWP and the inevitable Daily Mail story.

Starbucks avoiding tax by buying their coffee beans from a company in Luxembourg is just very distant.
 

Cloud Strife

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If it is something personal or the interaction with the Speaker was just the final straw when personal matters were going badly, then we really need to wait and see (if we’d ever do). I note that the SNP has replied with a bland and sympathetic comment

The SNP and Labour have good relations on a personal level, and they never get personal with each other. A good example was when the Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar was abused, and the SNP (and to their credit, the Scottish Tories) were very quick to jump up and defend him against the abuse. The SNP and Labour may not work too well on a political level, but it's very rare for personal tensions to take over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

and are now stuck with trying to help people with complex needs access the workforce which is not going to be easy.

A friend has quite complex disability needs, but at the same time, he's perfectly capable of working full time. The problem is that employers are simply highly reluctant to take a severely disabled person on, even though he's perfectly capable of using a computer and there's nothing wrong with him mentally. He says constantly that he'd rather be working than on benefits, but the system simply isn't set up for providing employers with the money needed to make the adjustments that he needs.

Yet, in terms of daily life, he can pretty much do everything. As he says, he's an involuntary scrounger: he takes, because no-one will give.
 
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ainsworth74

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A friend has quite complex disability needs, but at the same time, he's perfectly capable of working full time. The problem is that employers are simply highly reluctant to take a severely disabled person on, even though he's perfectly capable of using a computer and there's nothing wrong with him mentally. He says constantly that he'd rather be working than on benefits, but the system simply isn't set up for providing employers with the money needed to make the adjustments that he needs.

Yet, in terms of daily life, he can pretty much do everything. As he says, he's an involuntary scrounger: he takes, because no-one will give.
Spot on. There are some people, like your friend, who are ready for the workforce and ready to work but cannot find employers willing and/or able to make adjustments to allow them work. The Access to Work fund was an important part of the Government trying deal with this gap (which is why it's crackers this is apparently for the chop, that'll actively reduce the number of disabled people in work). But really it's a wider issue amongst society that disabled people are just seen as being less employable. Tackling that is a going to be an issue and is a key part of getting more disabled people into work.

There are others, of course, who are further away from being ready to work and need more help getting upskilled, gaining confidence, or working on mental or physical restrictions. But the current Jobcentre system is not at all geared to help them actually move towards the workforce.

But when we cannot regularly get disabled people who are ready and able to work (with adjustments) reliably into the work force what hope do that other group have?

However, tackling this is, of course, hard and likely to cost money hence why the rhetoric deployed is so often about laziness, being workshy, etc etc. Far easier to deploy more shiny PR friendly sticks...
 

brad465

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While not every person on PIP and other sickness benefits can be completely cured, surely the best way to reduce these bills, is to invest strongly in healthcare, both physical and mental, to treat as many disabled people as possible to the point they do not need to claim such benefits. The investment cost can be paid for by the savings down the line from a reduced benefits' bill (if only the Treasury saw beyond next week when calculating budgets).
 
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While not every person on PIP and other sickness benefits can be completely cured, surely the best way to reduce these bills, is to invest strongly in healthcare, both physical and mental, to treat as many disabled people as possible to the point they do not need to claim such benefits. The investment cost can be paid for by the savings down the line from a reduced benefits' bill (if only the Treasury saw beyond next week when calculating budgets).

True, and I think it's also the case that a number of people who end up on PIP for mental health reasons were working and tried to get help before it got so bad they couldn't work, but couldn't get any help. As anyone who has had any interaction with NHS mental health services will know, they are utterly dire and more likely to make things worse than do anything to help.
 

Thirteen

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Zarah Sultana who had the Labour whip withdrawn a year ago is resigning from the party to join Jeremy Corbyn's Socialist Party. Somehow I think those within Labour are probably glad to see the back of her.

Today, after 14 years, I’m resigning from the Labour Party. Jeremy Corbyn and I will co-lead the founding of a new party, with other Independent MPs, campaigners and activists across the country. Join us. The time is now.

Today after 14 years I am resigning from the Labour Party.

“Jeremy Corbyn and I will co-lead the founding of a new party, with other independent MPs, campaigners and activists across the country.”

She said that “Westminster is broken but the real crisis is deeper” and the “two-party system offers nothing but managed decline and broken promises”.

She added: “A year ago I was suspended by the Labour Party for voting to abolish the two-child benefit cap and list 400,000 children out of poverty. I’d do it again. I voted against scrapping winter fuel payments for pensioners.

“I’d do it again. Now, the Government wants to make disabled people suffer; they just can’t decide how much.”
 
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brad465

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Zarah Sultana who had the Labour whip withdrawn a year ago is resigning from the party to join Jeremy Corbyn's Socialist Party. Somehow I think those within Labour are probably glad to see the back of her.

Today, after 14 years, I’m resigning from the Labour Party. Jeremy Corbyn and I will co-lead the founding of a new party, with other Independent MPs, campaigners and activists across the country. Join us. The time is now.
The only thing shocking about this is how long it took for her to do this. She has openly attacked the Labour party more than the Tories or any other party, even while Labour were in opposition.
 

GatwickDepress

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There are stories, no doubt apocryphal, but common about people fit for SOME work taking the Michael. Shop mobility is an obvious example. I cant afford a nice car and am working all hours but that person over there who does nowt gets given a BMW free of charge. I suspect such stories are nonsense but they stick.
Motability. Shopmobility is the short-term mobility aid hire service you often find in shopping centres!

The way I understand it is that you're only eligible for Motability if you receive the Enhanced Rate of the Mobility Component, which you then exchange for a three year lease on a vehicle. I believe the vehicle, as its low mileage and in good condition is then sold on through auction house (often to fleets) and this helps Motability remain cost neutral.

I can understand why people get annoyed at this as it's easy to see people as getting a 'free car'. It's very different to how many other countries do it, where the state pays for adaptions to an existing car and disabled people often have grants or reductions in tax when it comes to purchasing vehicles instead.

I'm always a little suspicious of people online claiming they all know people who defraud the system (but conveniently don't reply when you ask if they reported them) and 'ragebait' is such a common way to farm engagement on social media that I can't take anyone at face value. My cousin is one of those people - claims she got a free Range Rover on Motability by lying to the assessors, but it's actually a PCH contract. But all she wants is views on TikTok, no matter what they think of her.
 

Cloud Strife

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But really it's a wider issue amongst society that disabled people are just seen as being less employable. Tackling that is a going to be an issue and is a key part of getting more disabled people into work.

I think a lot of it comes from the fact that employers are afraid of being left with a large burden on their shoulders without any support. It's understandable, and I think the country needs to take a long hard look at what actually can be done to get disabled people working. My friend does ok because he's self employed and works when he can, but he always says that he would much rather just be in an office doing office things rather than sitting at home.

As an aside, I think the Polish system actually works quite well: there's a special government agency which essentially funds employers to employ disabled people and to provide the adaptations needed. It's quite complicated to explain, but the gist of it is that the employer can get up to 100% of the costs needed to adapt the workplace and 75% of the wage costs covered, depending on the level of disability. The money is paid indefinitely, and one crucial thing is that it also covers thing like mental illness or other mental disabilities where someone can work, but they might not be capable of everything that's expected from an ordinary employee.

The general idea is that the subsidy makes it worthwhile to employ a disabled person, so for instance, supermarkets will employ a disabled person to staff self-service checkouts to deal with basic tasks. The cost to the supermarket is very little, and yet everyone gains from it.

There are others, of course, who are further away from being ready to work and need more help getting upskilled, gaining confidence, or working on mental or physical restrictions. But the current Jobcentre system is not at all geared to help them actually move towards the workforce.

I think the less said about the Jobcentre, the better. Some of the stories are beyond belief, yet it's very obvious that it's all just a tick box exercise. A friend was on benefits a couple of years back, and the most degrading thing about the whole experience was dealing with clearly demoralised "work coaches" who had no ability to offer him anything more than sending him for interviews in completely unsuitable places. I remember that he said that while he could deal with it as an educated person (and who was clever enough to know how to get rejected from every single job interview), he said that there was a very clear focus on trying to catch him out on the slightest thing so that he could be sanctioned.

Going back to Labour, I think if Labour really wanted to put the effort in, they should have gone in with a clear plan to reform the Jobcentres from Day 1. They surely must have known that the Jobcentre had become a place of rampant bullying of jobseekers and a place that employers won't cooperate with, yet they seem to have no real idea beyond 'let's force people into them so that we can force them into applying for jobs that they can't even do'.

A friend's brother has been convicted of some quite serious things, but was allowed to stay out of prison through being subject to a pretty severe SHPO for a long time. The gist of it is that he's pretty much banned from working in any environment where he could be alone with a woman, and he's also explicitly banned from using any form of social media or even sending unsolicited e-mails to women. The order lasts for 10 years, and if he breaks it, he's been told clearly that he can expect a lengthy custodial sentence.

He's subject to some other restrictions too, but the general message is that he's very limited in the work that he can do. The Jobcentre then tried to force him into some jobs that he couldn't do, such as working in a care home, and when he explained that even attempting to get such a job could put him in prison for a long time through breaching the SHPO, he was sanctioned. He won on appeal, but in this specific situation, the Jobcentre are clueless and they still keep proposing that he should apply for jobs that he simply won't be allowed to do. Fortunately, the courts are quite sensible and understanding about the situation that he's in, but even a letter from the sheriff that imposed the order to the Jobcentre hasn't changed anything.

For that reason, I'm not surprised that there was mass backbench rebellion, because the Jobcentre is simply not fit for purpose.
 

brad465

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I think the less said about the Jobcentre, the better. Some of the stories are beyond belief, yet it's very obvious that it's all just a tick box exercise. A friend was on benefits a couple of years back, and the most degrading thing about the whole experience was dealing with clearly demoralised "work coaches" who had no ability to offer him anything more than sending him for interviews in completely unsuitable places. I remember that he said that while he could deal with it as an educated person (and who was clever enough to know how to get rejected from every single job interview), he said that there was a very clear focus on trying to catch him out on the slightest thing so that he could be sanctioned.
There is also a burden on employers to an extent: I know of managers in my work place who've received very basic job applications for roles they've advertised, where they are almost certain the only reason for those applications, was to meet a minimum application requirement while on Jobseeker's Allowance, and/or to satisfy Jobcentre demands on the side of the applicants. This of course wastes time from managers and HR, which over several managers, several roles and several applications, stacks up.

If I was imposing conditions on benefit claimants, I'd make a large chunk of it training and/or education and then link applications to this. This may be being looked at by government, but if not certainly should be with as much emphasis on the benefits to employers as much as to jobseekers.
 

Thirteen

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The only thing shocking about this is how long it took for her to do this. She has openly attacked the Labour party more than the Tories or any other party, even while Labour were in opposition.
I've seen her on many shows and she always came across as unlikeable which is a feat in itself.
 

GusB

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9 Jul 2016
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Elginshire
I think the less said about the Jobcentre, the better. Some of the stories are beyond belief, yet it's very obvious that it's all just a tick box exercise. A friend was on benefits a couple of years back, and the most degrading thing about the whole experience was dealing with clearly demoralised "work coaches" who had no ability to offer him anything more than sending him for interviews in completely unsuitable places. I remember that he said that while he could deal with it as an educated person (and who was clever enough to know how to get rejected from every single job interview), he said that there was a very clear focus on trying to catch him out on the slightest thing so that he could be sanctioned.
I've had numerous experiences with the Job Centre over the years. Before I say anything else, I think it's fair to say that there are some really good people who work there and they do genuinely care about people. I've had some really fantastic advisers who actually listen and do their best to help.

There are also some nasty people who shouldn't ever be in a public-facing role. I had one adviser offer to call me if she though a suitable position appeared on the job boards. She did indeed call one day, but it was for a job that specified a certain qualification and I was well under-qualified. I asked her to post the details out and I'd consider it, but she then assumed that I was actually going to apply and I ended up with a sanction because I didn't. It would have been a total waste of my time and the employer's time if I had been invited to interview. That episode ended up with me being unable to afford my rent and I had to move back into my mum's place, in an area where there were far fewer jobs around!

Regarding third-party contractors which are brought in to help, they're simply not flexible enough to be able to deal with people who are reasonably qualified. I once had to attend some course where we were treated like idiots. The people behind these companies don't care about anything other than the "outcome fee".

I've mentioned this previously, but I think that Blair's Labour government had it just about right with its "New Deal". It wasn't a perfect scheme by any means, but it treated people like human beings and addressed basic issues such as ensuring that people had something smart to wear for an interview. It also took into account that any work or voluntary training placements weren't necessarily forever and put you back on the same level of support once they came to an end. With New Deal, participants received a bit extra over and above the standard JobSeekers' Allowance. It worked for me at the time and although i only had a short-term job as a result, my confidence was such that I was able to go out and get another job soon afterwards.

This current shower seems to want to carry on with the Tory stick approach, rather than offering carrots. Some people just need a bit of a confidence boost to help find work; you don't boost anyone's confidence by threatening to put them in a worse situation than the one they're already in.
 

styles

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Gwynedd
There is also a burden on employers to an extent: I know of managers in my work place who've received very basic job applications for roles they've advertised, where they are almost certain the only reason for those applications, was to meet a minimum application requirement while on Jobseeker's Allowance, and/or to satisfy Jobcentre demands on the side of the applicants. This of course wastes time from managers and HR, which over several managers, several roles and several applications, stacks up.
I was on the hiring side for a few roles at a previous employer. We had one guy who applied for every job I advertised, with the exact same untailored CV, even though the roles were wildly different.

I mentioned this to HR and they said oh yeah he applies for every single job we advertise. He applied to work as a waiter, and also applied for the CEO, which he only would've found via finding the executive search agency we'd contracted.

I'm not sure if it was to show the JobCentre he was applying for jobs, or if he was just weirdly obsessed with us.

He didn't get any of the jobs.
 

jfollows

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26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,133
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Wilmslow
One feeling I have is that Labour doesn’t properly understand the levers of power it controls, it seems to have some laudable aims, but it seems to be going about them totally the wrong way.
Get more people “into work” by taking away their benefits rather than by coming up with proper incentives instead.
The one that really annoys me is the “Cash ISA” thing. Let’s get people to invest more in the stock market by taking away their Cash ISA options. No, they won’t, it won’t work. Different types of investor totally. I don’t touch Cash ISAs myself, but I know people who keep their spare money in their bank savings account and might stretch to a Cash ISA, but are horrified by the potential for losing money on the stock market. Each to their own.
If Labour has worked out what it wants to accomplish, it hasn’t worked out how to achieve these things properly. Partly because they’re in the bubble and they project their thoughts and preferences onto everyone else.
 

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