The Key arrives at Gatwick

[mattdickinson]

From the Southern website

The key is being rolled out along the Southern network in a phased approach until the end of 2013. The key can currently be used between Bexhill and Worthing and in the Gatwick Airport area

The map shows coverage has been extended to Horley and Ifield from Preston Park and Lewes. However, intermediate stations between Three Bridges and Preston Park and Lewes are not currently covered.

There's no mention of whether or not FCC will accept it between Gatwick and Brighton.

 

[Deerfold]

From the Southern website

The map shows coverage has been extended to Horley and Ifield from Preston Park and Lewes. However, intermediate stations between Three Bridges and Preston Park and Lewes are not currently covered.

There's no mention of whether or not FCC will accept it between Gatwick and Brighton.

Hmm, so at the moment you can load seasons onto it, effectively with some restrictions on break of journey compared with a paper ticket. Can't see take-up being huge unless there's a discount (which doesn't seem to be mentioned).

 

[Eagle]

Take-up won't be huge because many residents in the greater Brighton area already have one, for use on GA Brighton and Hove buses. (In fact the areas you can use it in extend from here all the way along the south of England to Weymouth and Swindon.)

 

[cjohnson]

There's no mention of whether or not FCC will accept it between Gatwick and Brighton.

Assuming the seasons are 'Any Permitted' then there's no reason why not. If FCC can't read the smartcards then that's their problem surely?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Assuming the seasons are 'Any Permitted' then there's no reason why not. If FCC can't read the smartcards then that's their problem surely?

Not necessarily, Oyster has special dispensation for passengers not being able to show their ticket (Oyster cards are the device that carries the ticket), other electronic ticket formats (mticket for example) require the passenger to be able to show the ticket held on them. If Southern's system does not have the same dispensation as Oyster, FCC could legitimately levy a Penalty Fare for passengers not able to show a valid ticket when requested, even if it is otherwise valid.

 

[cjohnson]

Not necessarily, Oyster has special dispensation for passengers not being able to show their ticket (Oyster cards are the device that carries the ticket), other electronic ticket formats (mticket for example) require the passenger to be able to show the ticket held on them.

I'm not sure I agree - the TfL COC clearly say you have to "show" your Oyster if requested:

Duty to show your Oystercard or Oyster photocard. You must be prepared to show your Oyster card (and photocard, where needed) or your Oyster photocard on each journey, whether or not we have asked you to do so. You must let a member of staff or a Police Officer examine it at any time during your journey if they ask to do so. If you fail to do so you may be liable to pay a Penalty fare or you may be prosecuted.

If Southern's system does not have the same dispensation as Oyster, FCC could legitimately levy a Penalty Fare for passengers not able to show a valid ticket when requested, even if it is otherwise valid.

Again, I'm not sure I agree:

Any reference in these Conditions to the term “ticket” includes an Electronic Ticket unless specifically stated otherwise. [...] Wherever reference is made in these Conditions to information about restrictions, stations, routes and period of validity being shown on tickets, this information will not be shown on Smartcards and may not be displayed on the cards or devices [...] However, any rights, restrictions or other terms of use (including these Conditions where applicable) will still apply and will be provided when you buy your Electronic Ticket or Electronic Funds.

You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket a [...] If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable to hand a valid ticket over for inspection.

You could argue about the semantics of "displayed" (I think it's intended to mean "If you claim you've got an m-ticket on your iPhone but the battery's dead then you haven't got a ticket"). But how is using a "key" Gatwick/Brighton season on an FCC trains much different to a passenger who holds a Z1-2 Travelcard on Oyster and and BZ2-Milton Keynes ticket where VT can't read the Oyster?

 

[transportphoto]

There should be no reason why any current holder of an Brighton & Hove 'the key' (or any other ITSO smart card for that matter) can not use their existing smart card as a 'the key', they just need to phone Southern to ask for it to be registered on their system.

TP

 

[ushawk]

There should be no reason why any current holder of an Brighton & Hove 'the key' (or any other ITSO smart card for that matter) can not use their existing smart card as a 'the key', they just need to phone Southern to ask for it to be registered on their system.

TP

I believe an integrated system is being worked on and will be rolled out soon.

 

[Deerfold]

Take-up won't be huge because many residents in the greater Brighton area already have one, for use on GA Brighton and Hove buses. (In fact the areas you can use it in extend from here all the way along the south of England to Weymouth and Swindon.)

Shouldn't that increase take-up? If it weren't for the fact the rail seasons are more restrictive than paper ones?

 

[Tibbs]

Not necessarily, Oyster has special dispensation for passengers not being able to show their ticket (Oyster cards are the device that carries the ticket), other electronic ticket formats (mticket for example) require the passenger to be able to show the ticket held on them. If Southern's system does not have the same dispensation as Oyster, FCC could legitimately levy a Penalty Fare for passengers not able to show a valid ticket when requested, even if it is otherwise valid.

I would fancy my chances fighting this given that LM Guards don't have Oyster Readers and you can travel between Euston and Watford with an Oyster Card. Precedence and all that. I can also demonstrate I'm holding a valid ticket while travelling, I just can't demonstrate it on the train without a reader. Actually if I think about it, I could demonstrate my travelcard as I have an app for that!

They just ask to see your Oyster and where you're getting off. Say Watford (or Bushey / Harrow & Wealdstone) and they move on. I assume that they do come back to check you really have got off the train.

Does seem that it makes WFJ - EUS ripe for Doughnutting though. I assume someone will get the guards readers at some point.

 

[yorkie]

If Southern's system does not have the same dispensation as Oyster, FCC could legitimately levy a Penalty Fare for passengers not able to show a valid ticket when requested, even if it is otherwise valid.

What's your source for this? If the ticket is inter-available then the onus is on the TOC to be able to check the tickets, and if they can't that's their problem.

CrossCountry tried to justify that their inability to check tickets meant Tom Cairns' ticket was not valid on their services from Bournemouth. After some discussions, CrossCountry backed down, and now comply with the NRCoC and accept the tickets as they are required to do. If they did not back down they would have been in breach of their franchise commitments.

I am confident FCC will be honouring their franchise commitments by accepting valid tickets, irrespective of the medium in which they are held (NRCoC Condition 9), however if you (or anyone else) has good reason to doubt this, I will ask one of my contacts to investigate.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yorkie, show me where it says users of 'The Key' are not subject to NRCoC Condition 22, if you can do that, then fair enough.

 

[MikeWh]

Yorkie, show me where it says users of 'The Key' are not subject to NRCoC Condition 22, if you can do that, then fair enough.

The relevant part of that condition is

If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable
to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.

If the electronic ticket is an m-ticket which cannot be displayed because the passenger has a dead battery then fair enough. However, if the smartcard could be interrogated by a reader I don't see how it is the passenger's fault if the train company hasn't provided their staff with the means to do so. I mean, taking it to the extreme, if the reader on a Southern train is out of action (say the battery ran out) does that then make smartcards invalid on that service?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That's not what the condition says though is it, so where does it say 'The Key' is excluded from it?

 

[ainsworth74]

That's not what the condition says though is it, so where does it say 'The Key' is excluded from it?

So your contention is that if a reader runs out of battery whilst an on train inspection is being carried out everyone who is using Oyster (for example) is now in fact not carrying a valid ticket and liable for a PF? Is that what you're saying?

 

[transportphoto]

I believe an integrated system is being worked on and will be rolled out soon.

Yes, but the whole principal of ITSO is that you do not need more than one ITSO card. It is possible to load on any companies product onto any ITSO card - even loading a Southern 'The Key' product onto a 'Stagecoach Smart' card.

TP

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So your contention is that if a reader runs out of battery whilst an on train inspection is being carried out everyone who is using Oyster (for example) is now in fact not carrying a valid ticket and liable for a PF? Is that what you're saying?

Why keep bringing up Oyster? This thread is not about Oyster. I have already said, and it has been talked about countless times on this very forum, that the railway has accepted that the non-availability of Oyster readers is not a reason to issue a Penalty fare or determine that a ticket is not held on an Oyster card.

'The Key' is not Oyster, if it were it would be called 'Oyster', but it is not. So can someone show me where it is written the 'The Key' is not subject to condition 22? Why not do that instead of trying to say it's like Oyster or similar to Oyster.

 

[ushawk]

Yes, but the whole principal of ITSO is that you do not need more than one ITSO card. It is possible to load on any companies product onto any ITSO card - even loading a Southern 'The Key' product onto a 'Stagecoach Smart' card.

TP

Well, id imagine thats some way off for now. Stagecoach, Brighton and Hove, Metrobus and Southern all now use ITSO cards in the Sussex area. Just First Group and a few small bus companies that dont.

Would probably be easier when Southern and FCC are combined, the scheme could then be further rolled out into the FCC/Southeastern network - probably around the same time a universal card would be in use.

With The Keys acceptance on other operators, when it was extended to Worthing, i believe Southern provided FGW with some readers for their limited services to Brighton, i can only imagine that Southern are doing the same with FCC.

 

[transportphoto]

Well, id imagine thats some way off for now.

This is going off topic but it is entirely possible right now. You can load any product onto any ITSO card, regardless of its original issuer. You have to phone the second company up with your card number and away you go.

TP

 

[button_boxer]

Why keep bringing up Oyster? This thread is not about Oyster.

OK:

So your contention is that if a reader runs out of battery whilst an on train inspection is being carried out everyone who is using The Key is now in fact not carrying a valid ticket and liable for a PF? Is that what you're saying?

I can see how it's the passenger's responsibility to ensure that their phone is able to display an m-ticket, but it can't possibly be their responsibility to ensure that someone else's card reader is working nor their problem if it isn't.

If the passenger had to provide the reader as well as the card then fair enough, but then what's the point in a smartcard system...

 

[ushawk]

The Key is NOT valid on FCC services at present - so if you use it on one and an RPI catches you - you can get a penalty fare.

Just contacted Southern to get it cleared up.

 

[bb21]

The Key is NOT valid on FCC services at present - so if you use it on one and an RPI catches you - you can get a penalty fare.

Just contacted Southern to get it cleared up.

This brings up more questions than answers.

If I load a Brighton - Gatwick Airport season ticket onto the Key, since FCC receives a share of the revenue for that flow, they are not at liberty to refuse to accept them. There is no Southern Only product for this flow therefore revenue will be divided as per ORCATS arrangements with FCC.

I wonder what happens of I load this ticket onto an ITSO card and travel on FCC?

 

[transportphoto]

So effectively, by purchasing an Any Permitted ticket on a Smart Card rahter than a printed ticket you are loosing the ability to use all services between A & B?

I wonder what happens of I load this ticket onto an ITSO card and travel on FCC?

I wondered this too.. however the only chances are if you are caught by revenue protection. The chances of that happening when you want to test this out are pretty slim!


TP

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....So your contention is that if a reader runs out of battery whilst an on train inspection is being carried out everyone who is using The Key is now in fact not carrying a valid ticket and liable for a PF? Is that what you're saying?....

I'm seeking proof that some people's assertion that all is fine and dandy is actually the truth and not some half baked belief based on something that it is not.

I wouldn't expect a Penalty Fare on a route for which 'the key' is valid based on a battery running out, but equally, at this point, I can't say that the rules confirm that.

....I can see how it's the passenger's responsibility to ensure that their phone is able to display an m-ticket, but it can't possibly be their responsibility to ensure that someone else's card reader is working nor their problem if it isn't....

So show me where it says that and all is fine and dandy.

 

[yorkie]

The Key is NOT valid on FCC services at present - so if you use it on one and an RPI catches you - you can get a penalty fare.

Just contacted Southern to get it cleared up.

Hang on, are you saying The Key is a product, and not a medium? Surely not!

It is my understanding that The Key is a medium, and therefore by definition it is neither "valid" or "invalid" any more than any blank ticket stock or an Oyster card with nothing loaded onto it.

I do not consider the statement above to have "cleared up" anything; it raises more questions than answers!

I am certain it is a medium, in which case the questions are: what products exactly can be loaded onto them? If I commute between Gatwick and Brighton, what products are available, and at what price, on either paper or The Key?

If the product is the same, the medium is irrelevant.

Or perhaps there is a TOC specific Season available on this medium, in which case there would need to be an exemption under the TSA as the lead operator is not allowed to set TOC specific fares (other than 1st class or Advance fares) as I understand it.

Does Roger Ford still specialise in (among other things) smart card/ITSO ticketing? Perhaps someone can give him the link on this thread?

 

[johnnycache]

I work for Southern so can maybe clear up a few points

Firstly FCC and FGW have card readers and will accept the key

The key cannot be displayed on a mobile phone so that discussion does not relate to the situation today

Of course we would not penalty fare anyone who had a card that could be valid because we were unable to read it

Progress on the key is painfully slow and no one is more frustrated than us. But it is a totally new way of doing business so you have to re-learn everything from scratch. In December ITSO will work on National Rail stations in London and after an extended period of testing to make sure that ITSO and Oyster don't interfere with each other we will have the beginnings of a network wide solution. A year later the TfL readers will accept Oyster too. The government has made money available to ITSO-enable all London and South East train operators (South East Flexible Ticketing Project). Hold on tight..............

 

[ushawk]

I work for Southern so can maybe clear up a few points

Firstly FCC and FGW have card readers and will accept the key

The key cannot be displayed on a mobile phone so that discussion does not relate to the situation today

Of course we would not penalty fare anyone who had a card that could be valid because we were unable to read it

Progress on the key is painfully slow and no one is more frustrated than us. But it is a totally new way of doing business so you have to re-learn everything from scratch. In December ITSO will work on National Rail stations in London and after an extended period of testing to make sure that ITSO and Oyster don't interfere with each other we will have the beginnings of a network wide solution. A year later the TfL readers will accept Oyster too. The government has made money available to ITSO-enable all London and South East train operators (South East Flexible Ticketing Project). Hold on tight..............

Then Southern need to get the info circulated to staff about this as they clearly dont all know !! But it is as i expected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This brings up more questions than answers.

If I load a Brighton - Gatwick Airport season ticket onto the Key, since FCC receives a share of the revenue for that flow, they are not at liberty to refuse to accept them. There is no Southern Only product for this flow therefore revenue will be divided as per ORCATS arrangements with FCC.

I wonder what happens of I load this ticket onto an ITSO card and travel on FCC?

This is exactly what i was wondering but forgot to post - was thinking that they have introduced a new ITSO season ticket which is Southern Only, but following the above post its probably just a normal season, just on the card.

Only tickets that can be used on The Key at the moment are Season Tickets too, no idea when singles/returns/daysave can be added on - as well as bus company integration (Brighton and Hove/Metrobus mainly - both being Go-Ahead and all).

 

[OwlMan]

Only tickets that can be used on The Key at the moment are Season Tickets too, no idea when singles/returns/daysave can be added on - as well as bus company integration (Brighton and Hove/Metrobus mainly - both being Go-Ahead and all).

The main problem is that if you have two tickets stored on your card that are both valid for the journey undertaken which one does ITSO use?

 

[ushawk]

The main problem is that if you have two tickets stored on your card that are both valid for the journey undertaken which one does ITSO use?

It would depend on what they are of course. For example if you had a 1 Month season between Brighton and Lewes, but travel on to Eastbourne - i would have thought you would be charged from Lewes to Eastbourne - but thats probably too complicated.

Would probably need to touch in/out in something like this.

 

[yorkie]

It would depend on what they are of course. For example if you had a 1 Month season between Brighton and Lewes, but travel on to Eastbourne - i would have thought you would be charged from Lewes to Eastbourne - but thats probably too complicated.

Would probably need to touch in/out in something like this.

From your post it sounds like you believe that PAYG is being used for these smart cards, but that is news to me!

The only PAYG system that is in use is Oyster and no others are planned in the near future as far as I know, but there is a longer term plan for such a system in the PTE areas.

An Oyster PAYG style system would work in the way you suggest but that is not being implemented with The Key.