The joy of separate railway enterprises (complex fares in France)

[signed]

RENFE I can see, but why is Trenitalia in a bad state?

Numbers don't lie, Fiscal Year 24, 68M€ in deficit which has only grown since starting high speed 5 years ago now. And no sign of easing up with their depot plans.

 

[Austriantrain]

Academic investigation has thoroughly pointed out that fragmentation and open access passenger services has led to higher costs to the public purse and deterioration of service in rural area.
The fact is that rail operators do not pay the full economic costs of the infrastructure use but while Public operators would use the profits from profitable lines and partially internally subsidize less profitable lines, private operators just keep those profits for themselves. This means that public operators have lost important sources of revenue, which have to be toped up by someone.

Ah, but that is not inevitable, merely bad regulation (which admittedly is often the rule). Obviously unregulated competetion on a scarce resource (=the most attractive and therefore the most congested lines) that has largely been paid out of public funds is a bad idea. It doesn't mean that competition per se is the problem.

For what it's worth and being very aware of the disaster that Spanish rail often is, I believe liberalisation was not badly handled. The only real "crown jewel" is Madrid- Barcelone, but access was packaged with the Andalucía and Levante LAV, so that large parts of the country profit (admittedly, this strategy will be more difficult to carry out in the Noth-Eastern part of Spain, since the "crown jewel" barely exists there).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2026 ==

Numbers don't lie, Fiscal Year 24, 68M€ in deficit which has only grown since starting high speed 5 years ago now. And no sign of easing up with their depot plans.

Easy for Trenitalia to cover until they get up to speed. And they weren't exactly given the best paths on Paris - Marseille, which rather proves the point.

Also, one could argue that by paying sky-high access charges on the LGV Sud-Est, the cost of which was paid off long ago, they actually help pay for the financing and running of the rest of the HS network.

 

[signed]

Easy for Trenitalia to cover until they get up to speed. And they weren't exactly given the best paths on Paris - Marseille, which rather proves the point.

That's my point, the whole operation depends on FS eating the debt, for now at least.

Newcomers without that luck and that level of financial backing won't survive on LGV SE once the 3 years EU subsidy lapses.

 

[NCT]

Academic investigation has thoroughly pointed out that fragmentation and open access passenger services has led to higher costs to the public purse and deterioration of service in rural area.
The fact is that rail operators do not pay the full economic costs of the infrastructure use but while Public operators would use the profits from profitable lines and partially internally subsidize less profitable lines, private operators just keep those profits for themselves. This means that public operators have lost important sources of revenue, which have to be toped up by someone.

Why should intercity passengers subsidise rural lines? Intercity passengers should enjoy competitive-market break-even quantities of supply and price points. If the state wants to extract a producer surplus from intercity passengers, then at least do it with transparency.

Where state own operators dominate, the state can extract dividends from SNCF Voyageur, and decide to use that as a funding stream to subsidise rural operations. Or in a British context, the state collects premia from surplus making TOCs and use the revenue to fund Northern. At least the figures are published and passengers know they are being charged a stealth tax.

The urban / rural differential funding requirements should be handled at the fiscal devolution budget settlement level, not hidden in individual sectors.

For somewhere like Rhone-Alps, the freedom to exercise their own fiscal powers to specify and tender their regional PSO is far preferable to relying on internal SNCF cross subsidsation where decisions are made in Paris.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Why should intercity passengers subsidise rural lines? Intercity passengers should enjoy competitive-market break-even quantities of supply and price points. If the state wants to extract a producer surplus from intercity passengers, then at least do it with transparency.

Where state own operators dominate, the state can extract dividends from SNCF Voyageur, and decide to use that as a funding stream to subsidise rural operations. Or in a British context, the state collects premia from surplus making TOCs and use the revenue to fund Northern. At least the figures are published and passengers know they are being charged a stealth tax.

The urban / rural differential funding requirements should be handled at the fiscal devolution budget settlement level, not hidden in individual sectors.

For somewhere like Rhone-Alps, the freedom to exercise their own fiscal powers to specify and tender their regional PSO is far preferable to relying on internal SNCF cross subsidsation where decisions are made in Paris.

That is an opinion I respect but I do not agree.
In any case I only pointed to a paper that reflects on that:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S221053952500032X?

Moyano, A. & Dobruszkes, F. (2025). Privatising profits and socialising losses: The effects of liberalisation on the incumbent high-speed rail operator in Spain. Research in Transportation Business & Management, 60, 101317. DOI: 10.1016/j.rtbm.2025.101317.

Abstract:
This paper investigates the destiny of high-speed rail (HSR) operations as rail liberalisation challenges the cross-subsidy single rail operators established between profitable and non-profitable routes when they monopolised the whole HSR network. When an incumbent HSR operator has to share the cake with newcomers, the resulting decline in revenues and profits may limit the effectiveness of the relevant cross-subsidies. We analyse such scenarios through the case of Spain, in which the state-owned incumbent rail company, Renfe, faces increasing competition in its more lucrative HSR corridors. Scenarios suggest that with only a 30 % drop in ticket sales in the northeastern HSR corridor, the financial balance of Renfe's HSR commercial operations becomes negative. This means that beyond the profits made by new entrants in one or two specific corridors, the outcomes for non-profitable corridors will be quite different: public authorities will have to cover losses and/or Renfe will have to increase ticket prices and/or the frequencies of HSR services will have to be cut. Travellers on the most profitable HSR routes will enjoy greater frequency of services and lower fares, while those on other HSR routes could experience less frequency and higher fares. In geographical terms, rail liberalisation applied to HSR operations may thus have very heterogeneous effects and reinforce spatial inequalities between regions.

Oh, one other thing: Even in a open market, open-access operators, in general, do not pay the full costs of operating those services, including the cost of negative externalities (naturally after the positive ones are outweighed). I believe that is a case of stealth subsidizing...
In a nutshell one could even state that a "stealth tax", as a form of cross subsidy between profit and loss making services by a public rail operator may be wrong but the "stealth subsidy" necessary for open access operators to turn a profit may be right...

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Has all this answered the OP's question? About 50 posts back, there was reference to some kind of ticket that covers the IDFM area plus a few zones outside it. Does this fare exist and could it be bought at a guichet at Gare du Nord?!!

 

[signed]

Has all this answered the OP's question? About 50 posts back, there was reference to some kind of ticket that covers the IDFM area plus a few zones outside it. Does this fare exist and could it be bought at a guichet at Gare du Nord?!!

From the beginning of October or November and it is very likely that it will be available at most to all TVM and to load on phones and navigo easys

 

[MarcVD]

Has all this answered the OP's question? About 50 posts back, there was reference to some kind of ticket that covers the IDFM area plus a few zones outside it. Does this fare exist and could it be bought at a guichet at Gare du Nord?!!

Well, not really. I still Wonder what exactly I should have done before boarding the train at Orry la ville in order not to break the rules.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Well, not really. I still Wonder what exactly I should have done before boarding the train at Orry la ville in order not to break the rules.

I have found this page now: https://www.ter.sncf.com/hauts-de-f...utres-tarifs-ter/billet-tarif-normal-avec-idf

Using the link "Acheter des billets" under "Trajet occasionnel entre les Hauts-de-France et l'IDF" you can actually buy a single ticket "Tarif Normal desservi par Transilien" from Orry-la-Ville to Saint-Denis online for €7,50.

You can find that page when you're on the TER Hauts-de-France page looking through the website menu. So there is an option to buy, but it's quite hidden. On SNCF Connect, Ile-de-France Mobilités and Transilien websites, they just state there's no ticket option, and even the normal TER Hauts-de-France journey planner tells me "non vendu sur ce site" from Orry-la-Ville to Saint-Denis, when it is, in fact, "vendu sur ce site".

(The other option would have seemingly been the ticket office, but as you say that's closed on Sundays)
(By the way, it's TER Hauts-de-France as Picardie region no longer exists and it's part of Hauts-de-France region now)

 

[MarcVD]

So, owning and operating a smartphone has become a mandatory prerequisite to purchase a train ticket nowadays ? I wonder how long that argument would hold in court...

 

[NCT]

That is an opinion I respect but I do not agree.
In any case I only pointed to a paper that reflects on that:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S221053952500032X?

Moyano, A. & Dobruszkes, F. (2025). Privatising profits and socialising losses: The effects of liberalisation on the incumbent high-speed rail operator in Spain. Research in Transportation Business & Management, 60, 101317. DOI: 10.1016/j.rtbm.2025.101317.

Abstract:
This paper investigates the destiny of high-speed rail (HSR) operations as rail liberalisation challenges the cross-subsidy single rail operators established between profitable and non-profitable routes when they monopolised the whole HSR network. When an incumbent HSR operator has to share the cake with newcomers, the resulting decline in revenues and profits may limit the effectiveness of the relevant cross-subsidies. We analyse such scenarios through the case of Spain, in which the state-owned incumbent rail company, Renfe, faces increasing competition in its more lucrative HSR corridors. Scenarios suggest that with only a 30 % drop in ticket sales in the northeastern HSR corridor, the financial balance of Renfe's HSR commercial operations becomes negative. This means that beyond the profits made by new entrants in one or two specific corridors, the outcomes for non-profitable corridors will be quite different: public authorities will have to cover losses and/or Renfe will have to increase ticket prices and/or the frequencies of HSR services will have to be cut. Travellers on the most profitable HSR routes will enjoy greater frequency of services and lower fares, while those on other HSR routes could experience less frequency and higher fares. In geographical terms, rail liberalisation applied to HSR operations may thus have very heterogeneous effects and reinforce spatial inequalities between regions.

Oh, one other thing: Even in a open market, open-access operators, in general, do not pay the full costs of operating those services, including the cost of negative externalities (naturally after the positive ones are outweighed). I believe that is a case of stealth subsidizing...
In a nutshell one could even state that a "stealth tax", as a form of cross subsidy between profit and loss making services by a public rail operator may be wrong but the "stealth subsidy" necessary for open access operators to turn a profit may be right...

I don't dispute the cross-subsidy opportunity is disappearing. I don't see it as a bad thing.

Before liberalisation RENFE was running 1-2tph on Madrid - Barcelona. Air remained the dominant mode. Air only became the minority mode after liberalisation. That's an enormous positive externality. More passengers benefiting from lower fares is a good thing.

As far as I can tell neither Ouigo Spain nor Iryo are making abnormal profits. So the argument of stealth subsidising doesn't hold water. Unless track access charges are set too low - at a level that doesn't cover variable wear and tear. Then that's just incompetence rather than a problem with the system's design.

Inter-city B2B travel grows aggregate GDP and raises taxes. Getting inter-city high-speed right, maximising supply, maximisng aggregate net social welfare without the state extracting a surplus, is of far greater aggregate value to the economy and public coffers than rural lines.

Are you opposed to French regions exercising devolved powers?

 

[Flying_Turtle]

I don't dispute the cross-subsidy opportunity is disappearing. I don't see it as a bad thing.

Before liberalisation RENFE was running 1-2tph on Madrid - Barcelona. Air remained the dominant mode. Air only became the minority mode after liberalisation. That's an enormous positive externality. More passengers benefiting from lower fares is a good thing.

As far as I can tell neither Ouigo Spain nor Iryo are making abnormal profits. So the argument of stealth subsidising doesn't hold water. Unless track access charges are set too low - at a level that doesn't cover variable wear and tear. Then that's just incompetence rather than a problem with the system's design.

Inter-city B2B travel grows aggregate GDP and raises taxes. Getting inter-city high-speed right, maximising supply, maximisng aggregate net social welfare without the state extracting a surplus, is of far greater aggregate value to the economy and public coffers than rural lines.

Are you opposed to French regions exercising devolved powers?

Ouigo and Iryo have been accused of dumping..

Regarding regions exercising devolved powers, I don't agree with that on railways, except on big metropolitan areas to a certain extent, as you have a region with very specific needs, huge numbers of passengers and an absolute need to move people away from private transport. That requires a very localized operation
Now, the problem with regions having devolved powers on transport, namely with railways and buses is that they completely screw up local transport continuity, literally screwing up the fringes, which already tend to be not very ecomically and favoured areas. This happens everywhere and it is especially visible with big metropolitan areas (despite I agreeing that big metro areas should rule their own transportation)

Regions should have a strong say on their railway transport organization but the central state is needed to smudge the frontiers, especially because railways are the last true power of countries in what regards territorial organization through public transport.
With this I also defend a national railway to perfom these duties and not a fragmented system. A national railway is not intrinsically unprofitable, badly managed or to big... it is just a question of the way it is managed.

 

[NCT]

Ouigo and Iryo have been accused of dumping..

There are laws against that. Investigations are ongoing. The system is working as intended.

Regarding regions exercising devolved powers, I don't agree with that on railways, except on big metropolitan areas to a certain extent, as you have a region with very specific needs, huge numbers of passengers and an absolute need to move people away from private transport. That requires a very localized operation
Now, the problem with regions having devolved powers on transport, namely with railways and buses is that they completely screw up local transport continuity, literally screwing up the fringes, which already tend to be not very ecomically and favoured areas. This happens everywhere and it is especially visible with big metropolitan areas (despite I agreeing that big metro areas should rule their own transportation)

Regions should have a strong say on their railway transport organization but the central state is needed to smudge the frontiers, especially because railways are the last true power of countries in what regards territorial organization through public transport.
With this I also defend a national railway to perfom these duties and not a fragmented system. A national railway is not intrinsically unprofitable, badly managed or to big... it is just a question of the way it is managed.

This is just throwing the baby out with the bathwater and rather statist.

A typical French region (or English region) has a population of Switzerland or Greater London. That would pass your 'big' test.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

There are laws against that. Investigations are ongoing. The system is working as intended.



This is just throwing the baby out with the bathwater and rather statist.

A typical French region (or English region) has a population of Switzerland or Greater London. That would pass your 'big' test.

While you might have a few metropolitan areas in France they do not correspond in its entirety to the fullness of the territory (may I remind you about the French Diagonal?). While the regions might have some control over their big metropolitan areas, the rest of the territory needs to be managed in a very different way, preferably centrally to avoid barriers between regions.

 

[NCT]

While you might have a few metropolitan areas in France they do not correspond in its entirety to the fullness of the territory (may I remind you about the French Diagonal?). While the regions might have some control over their big metropolitan areas, the rest of the territory needs to be managed in a very different way, preferably centrally to avoid barriers between regions.

What evidence is there of devolution causing barriers between regions?

Are you also saying the rural parts of Auverge Rhone-Alps are better governed from Paris than from Lyon?

 

[81A]

This reminds me of the faff of buying a ticket from Grenoble to Geneva a year or so ago... On arrival at Grenoble station, one is greeted by a prominent ticket office and bank of machines. Seems easy enough, except they are apparently "mainline only".

Then, one is directed to a different office for local trains which also has one TVM (Ticket Vending Machine). This seems easy enough, except the TVM is about 20 years old (the "turn dial to select ticket" type the Croydon trams used to use) and seems to have issues accepting card payments... Since the ticket office is poorly staffed and uses an annoying "make appointment, get ticket with number on it and wait to be called" system, this was a rather lengthy process (an attempt to buy online lead to requests for the personal details of everyone in the group, followed by a random error message)...

The above may have recently changed, but it certainly made the worst elements of buying tickets in the UK seem positively simple...

 

[NCT]

In Spain you get ‘I’m Cercanias. The mainline person has gone home.’

In Poland it’s PKP constantly waging wars against PolRegio.

Honestly, people don’t know how good they have it in the UK. My only major annoyance is TfL NR modes pretending not to be NR.

 

[Polarbear]

Had some “entertainment” as a side effect of the Ille de France boundary ticketing issues today.

I headed out from Paris, aiming for Chantilly Gouvioux, which is outside of Paris zone 5. Used a Navago single to Goussainville, then exited the gate line thinking I’d just buy another single to Chantilly.

But no-there’s no TER ticket machines, only Navago ones that you load onto the card. So I used the SNCF connect app to buy the ticket. All well and good…well no!

I then tried to get back through the gates, but there are no TER gates (they exist at other stations, not here though), so I needed a staff member to let me through.

Was there anyone on the gates…of course not. Added to the mix, I’ve now gathered that the next train will be the last for some time due to daytime engineering work!

So I headed to the ticket office, to find the bloke in front having quite an animated but polite conversation with the ticket clerk. That lasted until well after the train in question departed, so I gave up & headed back to Paris.

It’s a rubbish system!

 

[NCT]

Had some “entertainment” as a side effect of the Ille de France boundary ticketing issues today.

I headed out from Paris, aiming for Chantilly Gouvioux, which is outside of Paris zone 5. Used a Navago single to Goussainville, then exited the gate line thinking I’d just buy another single to Chantilly.

But no-there’s no TER ticket machines, only Navago ones that you load onto the card. So I used the SNCF connect app to buy the ticket. All well and good…well no!

I then tried to get back through the gates, but there are no TER gates (they exist at other stations, not here though), so I needed a staff member to let me through.

Was there anyone on the gates…of course not. Added to the mix, I’ve now gathered that the next train will be the last for some time due to daytime engineering work!

So I headed to the ticket office, to find the bloke in front having quite an animated but polite conversation with the ticket clerk. That lasted until well after the train in question departed, so I gave up & headed back to Paris.

It’s a rubbish system!

Ah but it’s privatisation’s fault!

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

So I used the SNCF connect app to buy the ticket. All well and good…well no!

It's a rubbish system!

As mentioned in post #69, the ticket you want can be bought online, just not in the SNCF Connect or IdFM apps. You need use the special "Acheter des billets" button found on this site: https://www.ter.sncf.com/hauts-de-f...utres-tarifs-ter/billet-tarif-normal-avec-idf a single from Survilliers-Fosses (last station in Île-de-France) to Chantilly-Gouvieux is €3.40