the Increasingly Frustrating Thameslink

[plastictaffy]

The lack of information (also noticeable in other areas) is a new phenomenon courtesy of the new operator.

Strange, that. Another company run by GoVia, and there's a breakdown in communication.........
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No chance.

The pre new year disruption with driver numbers being low was always going to happen. Using this service everyday, the last two weeks have been perfectly fine for all journeys I've needed to take.

Rumors in companies spread quick as people like gossip.

Absolutely not. GoVia wanted that franchise soooo badly. Once they got it, there was praise heaped upon the bid team in the propaganda we get from the Ivory Towers every day. It basically droned on about how wonderful they are, and how GoVia's bid was miles better than any other etcetera.

 

[CMS]

One gripe I have atm (although I accept it was mainly implemented by FCC) is the stopping of most fast TL services at West Hampstead Thameslink. Up trains are always packed, even as late as midnight, departing St Pancras and whilst extra connections can be made at West Hampstd TL, these trains struggle taking additional passengers. When 377s were first introduced to the route, 17-19 mins would be a tight but realistic STP-SAC run, now 25-28 mins is lucky!

 

[AM9]

One gripe I have atm (although I accept it was mainly implemented by FCC) is the stopping of most fast TL services at West Hampstead Thameslink. Up trains are always packed, even as late as midnight, departing St Pancras and whilst extra connections can be made at West Hampstd TL, these trains struggle taking additional passengers. When 377s were first introduced to the route, 17-19 mins would be a tight but realistic STP-SAC run, now 25-28 mins is lucky!

By 'up' I assume that you mean Down. The reason that the fast STP to SAC trains are stopped at WHP is that WHP is now a major interchange station between the Jubilee Line and London Overground and it is necessary to provide a frequent service to prevent a build-up of passengers at WHP. This is particularly important in the evenings when theatregoers and other passengers leaving late from central London frequently use the Jubilee Line from the West End to WHP.
Similarly, there are many passengers who alight from southbound trains to take the Overground when going to Stratford or West London via the London Overground all day.
For the above reasons it is fully justified to put 2 or 3 minutes onto the 20 minutes or so timetabled for the non-stop trains, (even though it inconveniences me sometimes).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

By 'up' I assume that you mean Down. The reason that the fast STP to SAC trains are stopped at WHP is that WHP is now a major interchange station between the Jubilee Line and London Overground and it is necessary to provide a frequent service to prevent a build-up of passengers at WHP. This is particularly important in the evenings when theatregoers and other passengers leaving late from central London frequently use the Jubilee Line from the West End to WHP.
Similarly, there are many passengers who alight from southbound trains to take the Overground when going to Stratford or West London via the London Overground all day.
For the above reasons it is fully justified to put 2 or 3 minutes onto the 20 minutes or so timetabled for the non-stop trains, (even though it inconveniences me sometimes).

The passenger "churn" at West Hampstead is quite impressive - my only gripe is not the extra time - but the cold waiting areas ! - always use these calls for "cutting the corner" to get to Paddington (with a Baker St change)

WH to SAC is really 14 mins or so ....pretty impressive. (and of course the North London line connection is also very handy off a fast train)

 

[Busaholic]

By 'up' I assume that you mean Down. The reason that the fast STP to SAC trains are stopped at WHP is that WHP is now a major interchange station between the Jubilee Line and London Overground and it is necessary to provide a frequent service to prevent a build-up of passengers at WHP. This is particularly important in the evenings when theatregoers and other passengers leaving late from central London frequently use the Jubilee Line from the West End to WHP.
Similarly, there are many passengers who alight from southbound trains to take the Overground when going to Stratford or West London via the London Overground all day.
For the above reasons it is fully justified to put 2 or 3 minutes onto the 20 minutes or so timetabled for the non-stop trains, (even though it inconveniences me sometimes).

If you wanted to curb passenger usage at West Hampstead you could do it in a stroke by renaming it East Kilburn. When I worked for Camden Council, I was amazed by the number of people claiming to live in Hampstead, as far down as the Grays Inn Road.

 

[Tibbs]

If you wanted to curb passenger usage at West Hampstead you could do it in a stroke by renaming it East Kilburn. When I worked for Camden Council, I was amazed by the number of people claiming to live in Hampstead, as far down as the Grays Inn Road.

A friend of mine claimed to live in North Chiswick. Looking on the map, there was more than a hint of South Acton.

 

[AM9]

If you wanted to curb passenger usage at West Hampstead you could do it in a stroke by renaming it East Kilburn. When I worked for Camden Council, I was amazed by the number of people claiming to live in Hampstead, as far down as the Grays Inn Road.

That would have saved the cash spent on rebuilding the station including lengthening the platforms.

 

[Abpj17]

It bothers me the other way around; only two trains from leagrave an hour to west hampsted in/around the peak which makes it inconsistent to catch.

Canary Wharf is a major employment area, and connecting to the jubilee line there can be quicker than other routes. Suspect that'll change against with crossrail connecting farringdon and canary wharf tho.

 

[21C101]

It bothers me the other way around; only two trains from leagrave an hour to west hampsted in/around the peak which makes it inconsistent to catch.

Canary Wharf is a major employment area, and connecting to the jubilee line there can be quicker than other routes. Suspect that'll change against with crossrail connecting farringdon and canary wharf tho.

I think its because they cant stop the other two as EMT HSTs are bearing down on them and would be delayed. They've wanted to stop all trains at WH for years and two an hour is a fairly recent achievement.

Personally I think they should make the goods lines from Finchley Road to the Cricklewood triangle the fast lines and turn the existing four passenger lines into paired tracks providing a dynamic loop for fast Thameslinks to overtake slow Thameslinks. That would enable some fast Thameslinks to run on the "slow" lines all the way enabling more to call at West Hampstead qand then overtaking slows on the dynamic loop.

If they at the same time electrified the goods lines from the Cricklewood to Silkstream, that would enable trains that did cross onto the down fast to cross back there instead of Radlett without conflicting with the up fast.

I think an opportunity was lost when the Canal Tunnels were built by not building another single track tunnel from St Pan Low Level to the down fast in the Kentish Town area which would have enabled Thameslink trains to cross onto the down fast without conflicting with up fast trains.

 

[Class377/5]

Some Bedford/Brighton services already run non stop on the fast lines. I've done it myself a few times.

As for the tunneling idea, it was built by those building HS1 not the Thameslink Programme so that was never an option.

 

[The Box Photter]

It must be very difficult to get onto a northbound Thameslink train at West Hampstead, especially later in the evening as most of the trains leaving St Pancras seem to do so very well loaded.

I'd have thought that if you're in the West End, a quicker option (and one more guaranteed to get you a seat) would be to head for Blackfriars and get on a northbound train there. The journey time from Blackfriars to St Pancras LL is 10 mins.

I look at the hoards of people trying to get onto northbound trains at City Thameslink in the evenings and often wonder why they don't walk five minutes further south to Blackfriars and have a much less stressful journey.

 

[Abpj17]

It must be very difficult to get onto a northbound Thameslink train at West Hampstead, especially later in the evening as most of the trains leaving St Pancras seem to do so very well loaded.

I'd have thought that if you're in the West End, a quicker option (and one more guaranteed to get you a seat) would be to head for Blackfriars and get on a northbound train there. The journey time from Blackfriars to St Pancras LL is 10 mins.

I look at the hoards of people trying to get onto northbound trains at City Thameslink in the evenings and often wonder why they don't walk five minutes further south to Blackfriars and have a much less stressful journey.

(Apart from during the current/recent works) if you connect by tube, you join at Farringdon or Blackfriars. Neither of those are well connected by bus, but City Thameslink is on the main bus routes at the north and south ends.

(I'd agree with the west end bit tho, I'd aim for city thameslink usually and get a bus from charing x to ludgate hill if it's still open)

 

[Alfie1014]

The passenger "churn" at West Hampstead is quite impressive - my only gripe is not the extra time - but the cold waiting areas !

I have similar issue at Stratford on the main line platforms (9,10 and 10a) especially after all the monies spent on this station for the Olympics. The consequence is that when the weather's bad many people stand on the stairways up from the subway, which on 9 and 10 are narrow anyway blocking the way for those trying to get on and off if the platform. Ironically all the other main line and tube platforms have if not full canopies significant areas covered but the platforms with the least frequent and therefore the longest wait for many passengers have to cram into the small open shelters, wait on the stairs or get wet or cold.

 

[jon0844]

It's not fun going to platform 11 and there's virtually nowhere to shelter there either.

 

[Taunton]

The reason that the fast STP to SAC trains are stopped at WHP is that WHP is now a major interchange station between the Jubilee Line and London Overground and it is necessary to provide a frequent service to prevent a build-up of passengers at WHP. This is particularly important in the evenings when theatregoers and other passengers leaving late from central London frequently use the Jubilee Line from the West End to WHP.

Way back in the 1960s there was a proposal, not sure how far it went but was covered in rail magazines of the time, to rebuild all the West Hampstead stations together with interconnecting passages along/behind West End Lane, which included the Metropolitan Line (transferring the stop at Finchley Road to here) and the Marylebone line. The ability to do out of station Oyster interchanges has covered some of the justification for this, but there is still scope for such a project. In those times the St Pancras line only had an hourly service, and did very little passenger trade. Most of the intervening land which now has various industrial and commercial premises on it from Finchley Road right through to Kilburn was railway land at that time, previously occupied by considerable sidings

 

[Bald Rick]

Way back in the 1960s there was a proposal, not sure how far it went but was covered in rail magazines of the time, to rebuild all the West Hampstead stations together with interconnecting passages along/behind West End Lane, which included the Metropolitan Line (transferring the stop at Finchley Road to here) and the Marylebone line. The ability to do out of station Oyster interchanges has covered some of the justification for this, but there is still scope for such a project. In those times the St Pancras line only had an hourly service, and did very little passenger trade. Most of the intervening land which now has various industrial and commercial premises on it from Finchley Road right through to Kilburn was railway land at that time, previously occupied by considerable sidings

That proposal comes up roughly every 5 years or so, and no one can every make a case for it. The land around there is very expensive.

A lot of the land round there was earmarked for the M1, West Cross and North Cross motorways and interchange between them, and this land was only released in the late 70s / early 80s IIRC. The main interchange was to be located where Sainsbury's etc now is. There's a great article on CBRD http://www.cbrd.co.uk/articles/ringways/

 

[Abpj17]

^^ just to add to this, in addition to the well publicised flooding problems at Thameslink, after a 30 min wait at St Pancras...Leagrave passengers were turfed off the trains at Luton around 2am in the morning. The train wouldn't be stopping at Leagrave because 'the lights are off'. Was caught in the 'track obstruction' for 30 mins earlier in the week. *sighs* It's not been a good Thameslink week although I know none of it has probably been their fault.

 

[nuts & bolts]

Flooding at Blackfriars this morning!

 

[Class377]

Flooding at Blackfriars this morning!

Appropriate time to say "it never rains, it pours"?

 

[Steveo77]

I can't criticise Thameslink too much as they are obviously going to improve long term with new rolling stock, timetables etc.

slightly off topic but can anyone confirm whether the Sutton/Wimbledon loop will see an increase in trains from 2ph to 4ph?

 

[Bald Rick]

I can't criticise Thameslink too much as they are obviously going to improve long term with new rolling stock, timetables etc.

slightly off topic but can anyone confirm whether the Sutton/Wimbledon loop will see an increase in trains from 2ph to 4ph?

I can confirm the service frequency will be the same as it is today.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I can confirm the service frequency will be the same as it is today.

The plan for 2018 includes 2 additional peak Wimbledon to London Bridge services via Tulse Hill and Peckham of the Rye....
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Flooding at Blackfriars this morning!

Full peak service ran - albeit with some delays ...

 

[The Box Photter]

Signalling problems at Farringdon again this evening - Safety checks being carried out.

Lets fill in the tunnel between St Panrcas and Farringdon and admit that Thameslink was a bad idea.

What's going to happen when the GN services are squeezed into the core as well?

 

[Saint66]

Signalling problems at Farringdon again this evening - Safety checks being carried out.

Lets fill in the tunnel between St Panrcas and Farringdon and admit that Thameslink was a bad idea.

What's going to happen when the GN services are squeezed into the core as well?

Thank goodness people are keeping a level head and aren't having any over reactions to something unexpected and out of the hands of NR/TL... :roll:

 

[The Box Photter]

This isn't an isolated incident.

Because of the complex interworkings of destinations and drivers (as well as the signalling and power systems around Blackfriars/Farringdon being made of chocolate) failed trains/driver shortages or signalling/power problems cause chaos on a regular basis.

Try commuting on the route for more than a week and I'll guarantee you at least one difficult conversation with your employer when you arrive late in the morning or your journey home taking 2.5 hours instead of 1.5.

Thameslink is simply awful, soul-destroying and tediously unpredictable.

 

[Saint66]

This isn't an isolated incident.

Because of the complex interworkings of destinations and drivers (as well as the signalling and power systems around Blackfriars/Farringdon being made of chocolate) failed trains/driver shortages or signalling/power problems cause chaos on a regular basis.

Try commuting on the route for more than a week and I'll guarantee you at least one difficult conversation with your employer when you arrive late in the morning or your journey home taking 2.5 hours instead of 1.5.

Thameslink is simply awful, soul-destroying and tediously unpredictable.

Well if you think TL is so bad, and suggest we should just give up on it, why don't you just move closer to your work? A similar level of overreaction which works for both parties!

I've commuted a number of times on TL in the past, and I must be lucky, as my biggest delay has only ever been 20-30 mins, and most often that has occurred in the evening when heading back.

 

[The Box Photter]

Well if you think TL is so bad, and suggest we should just give up on it, why don't you just move closer to your work? A similar level of overreaction which works for both parties!

If only it was as simple as that. Where I live is only 40 mins from St Pancras on the fastest Thameslink train. That's not an excessive commute. The problem is that before Thameslink came along and added unnecessary complication, I could get on a train and be in London in around 35 minutes and there was a trolley refreshment service on some trains and one train in the morning ran from my station non-stop into St Pancras, and one train in the evening ran from St Pancras to my station in the evening without stopping, and I could arrange it so I could get to St Pancras in time to make sure I got a seat. Now passengers getting on at St Pancras have to fight their way onto the trains in the evening just to get a standing space.

I was quite happy using the Bedford - St Pancras line when it terminated in the proper St Pancras Station (before it became a shopping arcade with trains) and at Moorgate. The service was self-contained and wasn't affected by problems happening between London & Brighton, which it often is. One of the reasons we moved here was because of the frequent, reliable train service into London.

My needs haven't changed, but the train service has become progressively less reliable and less relevant to my needs.

This picture has just been posted on Twitter, showing flooding in the tunnel at Farringdon again.

 

[nidave]

This isn't an isolated incident.

Because of the complex interworkings of destinations and drivers (as well as the signalling and power systems around Blackfriars/Farringdon being made of chocolate) failed trains/driver shortages or signalling/power problems cause chaos on a regular basis.

Try commuting on the route for more than a week and I'll guarantee you at least one difficult conversation with your employer when you arrive late in the morning or your journey home taking 2.5 hours instead of 1.5.

Thameslink is simply awful, soul-destroying and tediously unpredictable.

Wasn't Thameslink a case of trying to add more capacity at the time and is now being pushed far beyond it limits?

 

[The Box Photter]

Wasn't Thameslink a case of trying to add more capacity at the time and is now being pushed far beyond it limits?

That's what I thought, but I was corrected.

It was simply a way of having to employ fewer drivers, as one driver could operate a train into London, then out the other side down to Brighton in place of a service that would originally have started at London Bridge using another driver.

BR got roughly the same number of trains but using roughly half the manpower.

I can tell you its no fun waiting for a northbound service and being told at Blackfriars or St Pancras that your train is 20 - 30 minutes late because there's been a signal failure at Preston park or Hassocks or Gatwick Airport.

There isn't even the excuse that the trains are so frequent you can simply get on the next one, because the Brighton Main Line is stretched to capacity and having just one train out of sequence can cause a major issue for other service.

 

[jon0844]

Thank goodness people are keeping a level head and aren't having any over reactions to something unexpected and out of the hands of NR/TL... :roll:

TL will be a disaster when the GN links up without needing anything unexpected!