the implications of filming something from a passengers prospective.

[AM9]

Merely saying that I don't understand it being personal use if the person using the camera deliberately goes out of their way to film someone else for the sole purpose of proving that the filmed person has, or has not, done their job correctly.

Unless the person gathering data is employed to do so or proposes to make a data record for financial gain, it can only be for personal, social or domestic use.

 

[Llanigraham]

A lot of you here are really missing the point totally. Very quick to blame me or find fault. I only film if I am requesting a complicated ticket, having a ticket check on something that not straight forward or going on a non Any permitted ticket on Gatwick Express and trying to get though a gateline. Or I may start filming if something goes wrong. If nothing bad happens it gets deleted. So before you start finding fault in me for protecting myself, have a look on You Tube at the other people who start filming when they are in a difficult situation.

You are suggesting you will be covertly filming on private property. It does not matter what the reason is, there are Rules and Laws that you may be breaking by doing so.
I suggest that need you need to be very careful that doing this doesn't cause you even more problems.

 

[6Gman]

I am not subject to the data protection act.

Are you sure?

 

[AM9]

Playing devil's advocate, how about a couple of potential Byelaw offences?

6(8) is a good opener: "No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway"

2(1) is another possibility: "Except with written permission from an Operator or an authorised person, no person shall bring with him or allow to remain on the railway any item which, in the opinion of an authorised person, may threaten, annoy, soil or damage any person or any property"

Not that I'm saying a prosecution for either of these would follow (or succeed), it's more likely that you would be asked to leave the station if discovered, and potentially reported to the anti-terrorism hotline at some locations given recent events.

The OP has repeatedly said that the recording of dialogue would be covert and would only see the light of day in the event of a dispute over the details of an event. Therefore, detection would be unlikely (if the concealment was undertaken competently), given that the railway staff aren't police officers, so they are unlikely to frisk him (or her) in the course of the event.
I suspect that in the event of the railway making incorrect claims (in the view of the OP) about ticket prices or their validity, the recording would first be used to create a written verbatim record of the dialogue. The OP is unlikely to claim something that wasn't on the recording so the issue would then be with the member(s) of staff involved to present their version to the investigators.
The investigator would then in turn determine the way ahead, - somewhere between:

an apology
a 'goodwill dropping the case'
a letter disputing the OP's version, taking the case to the next stage
or if appropriate (to the investigator), handing the matter over for court proocessing.
​

Only at this stage would the OP need to reveal a) how they have a verbatim version of events and b) why it supports their case. The TOC would then know that they would be likely to lose the case and may change their position. To make some largely irrelevant claim of byelaw violation wouldn't alter the facts of the case in question. Taking somebody to court for a minor issue, even if it was found against the OP, would very quickly ensure a whole load more passengers carrying covert recorders in case they were accused of lying. So not a wise thing for the TOC to do.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Unless the person gathering data is employed to do so or proposes to make a data record for financial gain, it can only be for personal, social or domestic use.

For the purposes of clarity, would "employed" include any self-employed or voluntary work?

Further, would it include any information gathered whilst not employed to do so, which later happens to find it's way into the hands of a company, or companies, who may or may not have a right to use it, by free movement of information (word of mouth, website, etc), or by later employment?

Also, would "financial gain" include any future gain as a direct, or indirect, result of said data gathering?

 

[AM9]

For the purposes of clarity, would "employed" include any self-employed or voluntary work?

IMHO, only if recording was a part of the role. Proving that, especially in the case of self-employed, may be impractical for the TOC. Bear in mind the matter of public interest, (see below).

Further, would it include any information gathered whilst not employed to do so, which later happens to find it's way into the hands of a company, or companies, who may or may not have a right to use it, by free movement of information (word of mouth, website, etc), or by later employment?

I assume that 'later' would be after the case had been closed. I would imagine that, like so many clips of video, it would be lost in the noise, but if it became the subject of a successful court defence, trying to destroy the content might cause the 'streisand effect'. There are many circumstances under which an unscrupulous individual may misuse footage. However the byelaw offences listed above are generally about removing a person interfering with the railway's interests at the time of the event by taking away their legitimate right to be on railway premises.

Also, would "financial gain" include any future gain as a direct, or indirect, result of said data gathering?

See above. I'm sure that any such "happening to find its way" event would be considered in context so byelaws couldn't be used to put a blanket bar on investigative work as would be carried out by journalists (for remuneration) or others in the public interest.

 

[Sprinter153]

...due to the problems I have had getting Advance tickets at ticket office, been told incorrect ticketing information, having guards on trains saying I cannot break my journey when I can and being denied access to Gatwick Express service because I do not hold a Any Permitted ticket, I have decided that I am going to start filming interactions I have with rail staff. This is for the purposes of gathering evidence and proof of what actually happened and to provide evidence of the industry failings which do an injustice to the customer.

With the daily breach of consumer law, people being mis-sold more expensive tickets, passengers being told by guards they cannot break their journey and ticket offices failing to sell the tickets that are requested of them, customers being left stranded when a TOC is in a position to help them and passengers being reported, sometimes by third party contractors, when they have valid tickets.....I cannot see any alternative but to film things.

Let's turn this around, and see how you feel about this. I'd wager you won't see it favourably. Please note, I'm not being at all serious, I'm just trying to show how daft this sounds from the other side.

Let's say that due to the problems I have had with passengers forgetting their railcards, not purchasing tickets before boarding where facilities exist, having passengers saying they aren't going to buy a new ticket or pay an excess fare when they need to and having passengers boarding trains they shouldn't with 'via Staines' tickets , I have decided completely off my own back that I am going to covertly film all my interactions with passengers, with no explanation that they're being filmed or right of reply, simply so I can gleefully jump up and down and shout 'you're in the wrong!' when one of them does make a mistake for whatever reason.

This is for the purpose of gathering evidence and proof of what happened and provide evidence of the failure of some passengers to purchase the correct ticket which do an injustice to the staff and other passengers. And of course, if one of them writes in and says that the guard on 1A23 is a dingleberry, I can provide certain proof they're right by waving my beloved 'evidence' in my manager's face.

With the daily breach of railway byelaws, people purchasing incorrect tickets and deliberately defrauding the railway, guards being told by passengers that they can travel from Guildford to Worplesdon via Georgemas Junction and St Keynes Wishing Well because the ticket says 'Any Permitted', passengers being verbally abusive and thinking they could do everything a million times better when you're trying to help them, and staff being reported, sometimes by people who have no idea, when they're doing their job to the best of their knowledge and going by the (often poor) training they've received.

Now do you get why your little self-righteous troublemaking crusade to belittle and victimise staff who often are just trying to do their jobs, even if they are misguided due to poor training, sounds so ludicrous?

 

[AM9]

Let's turn this around, and see how you feel about this. I'd wager you won't see it favourably. Please note, I'm not being at all serious, I'm just trying to show how daft this sounds from the other side.

Let's say that due to the problems I have had with passengers forgetting their railcards, not purchasing tickets before boarding where facilities exist, having passengers saying they aren't going to buy a new ticket or pay an excess fare when they need to and having passengers boarding trains they shouldn't with 'via Staines' tickets , I have decided completely off my own back that I am going to covertly film all my interactions with passengers, with no explanation that they're being filmed or right of reply, simply so I can gleefully jump up and down and shout 'you're in the wrong!' when one of them does make a mistake for whatever reason.

This is for the purpose of gathering evidence and proof of what happened and provide evidence of the failure of some passengers to purchase the correct ticket which do an injustice to the staff and other passengers. And of course, if one of them writes in and says that the guard on 1A23 is a dingleberry, I can provide certain proof they're right by waving my beloved 'evidence' in my manager's face.

With the daily breach of railway byelaws, people purchasing incorrect tickets and deliberately defrauding the railway, guards being told by passengers that they can travel from Guildford to Worplesdon via Georgemas Junction and St Keynes Wishing Well because the ticket says 'Any Permitted', passengers being verbally abusive and thinking they could do everything a million times better when you're trying to help them, and staff being reported, sometimes by people who have no idea, when they're doing their job to the best of their knowledge and going by the (often poor) training they've received.

Now do you get why your little self-righteous troublemaking crusade to belittle and victimise staff who often are just trying to do their jobs, even if they are misguided due to poor training, sounds so ludicrous?

I'd find it a bit pathetic actually, because in the event of a dispute, the investigators wouldn't have anything to do with it. If the footage ever found its way into the public domain, e.g. You Tube, the person who made the recording could make themselves and their employers subject to prosecution.

 

[yorkie]

... I have decided completely off my own back that I am going to covertly film all my interactions with passengers, with no explanation that they're being filmed or right of reply, simply so I can gleefully jump up and down and shout 'you're in the wrong!' when one of them does make a mistake for whatever reason....

As you are employed by the Company, it is not your personal decision to take. It would be up to the Train Company.

Some are equipping their staff with cameras, and providing you use them in accordance with the policies of the Company you will have nothing to worry about.

See:

All of our Revenue Protection Officers now wear personal CCTV cameras. As soon as they encounter any issues the camera is turned on straight away. You be surprised how quickly any trouble potential miscreants suddenly become fully compliant!

Now do you get why your little self-righteous troublemaking crusade to belittle and victimise staff who often are just trying to do their jobs, even if they are misguided due to poor training, sounds so ludicrous?

You're making that up. Re-read the original post.

 

[dtaylor84]

Now do you get why your little self-righteous troublemaking crusade to belittle and victimise staff who often are just trying to do their jobs, even if they are misguided due to poor training, sounds so ludicrous?

I'm not sure how creating a verbatim record of an interaction could be described in the terms above. Certainly, something sounds ludicrous here, but perhaps not what you think.

 

[bb21]

I don't see a major issue here, provided that the footage is not misused.

It seems a bit of a myth to me. I mean, has anyone ever won such a ticketing dispute due to the presence of a footage?

 

[Sprinter153]

You're making that up. Re-read the original post.

I respectfully disagree. He's saying that because some staff who often through no fault of their own are poorly trained (I've stated before in these august pages that a lot of my revenue knowledge is only held because of personal interest) it's absolutely fine to covertly film every interaction with every single member of staff so if he so wishes he can incriminate them. What's wrong with a written complaint? I feel that there's no need to film, other than to try and make staff feel small or gleefully point out their mistakes.

And why should I have a camera poking in my face waiting for the moment that I slip up because Gary in Manchester Picc ticket office struggles to issue Advances?

With great respect, lest I put any more noses out of joint, I just feel that some people here will do anything to get one over on a member of staff (and amass a nice pile of RTVs in the process).

Yes, staff will make mistakes, like anyone else does. Most of us try to learn from them gracefully. But if I came to some posters' place of work and took the same 'off with their heads' approach I'd be given short shrift.

I just don't feel it's appropriate to be waiting for someone to make a mistake, and deliberately turning up to some locations and goading staff. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit with the anti-staff leanings of some. But if we all agreed it would be boring!

As an aside I'm sorry if I've offended some by being direct. As a member of enthusiast staff I just feel a little saddened that this is how some enthusiasts view staff - as the enemy.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think my point about escalation is sufficiently addressed...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I mean, has anyone ever won such a ticketing dispute due to the presence of a footage?

The same question crossed my mind, though as I'm sure you know, that question cannot be answered reliably, because the proceedings in the Magistrates Courts are not captured for any data analysis (other than after a most painstaking manual check of hand-written records, which are not indexed or categorised or readily available, and which is not realistically ever going to happen). But I can confirm that no such railway ticketing dispute that has ever appeared in those Courts whose decisions are binding on any others and which are available in libraries (and largely also on-line) has been decided by reference to video or audio recordings.

More to the point, and in the context of this thread, is the difficulty I have in understanding what possible benefit might accrue from obtaining these recordings, (other than the personal and private satisfaction or enjoyment of a few). Having been considering this over a few days now, I'm sorry to admit that I still cannot see any useful outcome.
Not for anyone.
None at all.

So what am I missing, please?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

. . .

As an aside I'm sorry if I've offended some by being direct. As a member of enthusiast staff I just feel a little saddened that this is how some enthusiasts view staff - as the enemy.

You're not alone.

 

[Llanigraham]

According to a Police friend, it is possible that the filmer could be arrested for "behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace".

 

[yorkie]

According to a Police friend, it is possible that the filmer could be arrested for "behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace".

If that was the case, TPE wouldn't have equipped their revenue staff with cameras, would they?

 

[bb21]

So what am I missing, please?

I can see it potentially being of use in dealings with Customer Services in the event of the member of staff being mistaken and the customer unfairly penalised, but that remains a theoretical view. Whether in practice this has ever been put in use I have no idea, neither can I really comment on the usefulness of such a footage should matters escalate further.

That said, it all assumes that the recording went smoothly in the first place, which is far from a given.

 

[crehld]

We seem too be venturing on and off topic, and the tine of discussion seems to be lacking in courteousness at times. This suggests it's probably run its course. My tuppence ha'penny, for what it's worth, is that I see nothing wrong with recording, and the discussion appears to suggest it is legal. Nor should any member of staff acting correctly and professionally have something to fear by being recorded. But quite frankly I've got more important things in life to deal with than recoding all of my daily interactions, and I don't want to give the impression I'm being deliberately difficult, especially given such an impression is unlikely to diffuse a dispute should one occur. I prefer the much more pragmatic approach of simply finding fault where and when one has occurred, rather than anticipating one at every turn.