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The Great Circular European Railway Challenge
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Mark_Lester
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Regarding Rome, there are loads of trains out of Venice, if we just move forward to the 16:57 departure it will make all the difference. gets in at 20:40, We just need to know what time we need to be on the platform. It doesnt originate in Rome, it starts in Salerno, what's the form with these ?, anyone ever got a sleeper in Italy ?
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which only gives us 2 hours in venice, so it's out of bed stupid early on this 05:55.
so we now get 5 1/2 hours in Venice, and plenty of time for a flying visit to the Colosseum and a bunch of other derelict stuff in Rome. we're going to have to hope though that we get that early one out of Belgrade though even if we do there's not much chance I'm going to tackle that Bohinj line.
there's going to be a lot of zonking out going on on that venice rome train.
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I just fixed up the route/schedule as per latest plan with the saturday blast off and the night stop in Istanbul, the early start out of Ljubljana and the slightly earlier departure out of Venice.
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the Roma-Milano sleeper gets into Roma at 22:37 for the 23:04 departure, so that's when we should aim for, with the new schedule that gives us 2 hours to get to the tourist attraction and back, which is plenty enough time to get off at the Hippodrome and walk back to the Colosseum.
With over five hours now in Venice we need to plan that, I dont fancy doing a great deal of walking through those streets with a rucksack after getting out of bed at five o'clock.
At the same time, this line 2 river bus is going to be heaving, so we should at least try and work out how to get on that at a point that is more feasible than the station or st marks, or indeed if the central canal should be done at leisure on a private boat
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Private taxi's arent going to work, too expensive and a cop out anyway. But if we are going to get up for a 5 to 6 train out of Ljubljana, we'll need a bloody good plan for these 5 1/2 hours in Venice.
I reckon if we try and just get the No 1 or 2 bus straight up the grand canal it's going to be heaving, especially as it's just come from the car park area. It might be better to get a 5.2, or actually even a 2 in the opposite direction, round the outside anti-clockwise.
I estimate we'd be south end of the island by 1pm.
We should eat some spaghetti and clams somewhere, may be on Giudecca, that would mean getting a 2.
we should certainly have eaten by 2pm
Then do St Marks, which we should try to do as a group.
3pm
May be then just let everybody loose. Attempting to walk along those paths as a tour group with rucksacks is going to be an utter cluster ****. I will be happy walking east from there and then getting a bus 1 or 2 back to santa lucia along the grand.
train leaves at 5pm, but if you miss it there's another every 30 minutes.
Anyway, we need to work this out.
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here's the queue for left luggage at the station,
I guess if it's not that big we could go for it, but as we arrive at noon I think that's not going to be a worthwhile option. If we are going to spend half an hour dropping and the same again picking up then we'll just have to work out how to do it with the bags.
There are just so many ways to walk back from st mark's, so may be we split up the seven deadly sins and some other stuff, and assign everyone with a task.
likewise eating, we're not all going to fit into some off the beaten track place, the only way we are going to skin this is by splitting up into small groups and giving everyone some kind of orienteering task to navigate and photograph.
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Glenmutchkin
Member
I think that splitting into small groups for Venice is probably a good idea. The only slight danger is that it is quite easy to get lost wandering around the back alleys.
Mark_Lester
Member
there's no way I'm going to make much progress on this, other than working out that the baggage place at the station isnt fit for purpose.
I think just about everyone will have been already and will have their own opinions on what they want to do.
as said, there is a train every 30 minutes to rome, so if anyone underestimates how long it's going to take them to get back to the station, all is not lost. they will all have phones and their own ticket.
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well, it's circular, and a lot easier to get to than tibidabo (it's right in the middle of town)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3260CkbJHjk
this one is good too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KiWEkF1Oss
I'm a little confused. They have security checks for knives on the Chunnel? You can't take a Swiss Army Knife on because somehow you can crash down the locked steel door and demand the engineer take the train to Cuba?
Hate to say it but that YouTube "loop the loop" is small potatoes to some of the ones in the US. Did you see the Budapest wooden coaster video? Bear in mind that wood can't be any more than 110 years old but you will still get a real "rock n roll" ride from it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__V8DJKgxts&feature=endscreen&NR=1
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The "jump-on" time for Budapest is just about right. You can actually hop on right up to the Hungarian "Alllll Aboooooarrrrd" but with the tons of provisions needed to be loaded and stashed, 18:30 sounds about right. That means AT the platform with goods at that time.
Hate to say it but that YouTube "loop the loop" is small potatoes to some of the ones in the US. Did you see the Budapest wooden coaster video? Bear in mind that wood can't be any more than 110 years old but you will still get a real "rock n roll" ride from it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__V8DJKgxts&feature=endscreen&NR=1
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The "jump-on" time for Budapest is just about right. You can actually hop on right up to the Hungarian "Alllll Aboooooarrrrd" but with the tons of provisions needed to be loaded and stashed, 18:30 sounds about right. That means AT the platform with goods at that time.
Could you remind me what your plan for Ljubljana - Venezia is now that Trenitalia have stopped running the Budapest - Venezia sleeper which used to pass through Ljubljana in the early hours of the morning? You could travel via Nova Gorica / Gorizia or you may have to walk the 6 km between Sezana and Villa Opicina (near Trieste). The sleeper was apparently stopped to give Thello's service from Paris a platform in Venezia Santa Lucia (according to Trenitalia). What on earth happened to Artesia's path?
Mark_Lester
Member
what the hell is artesias path ?
the route is on here
http://gcerc.wordpress.com/route/
we are going sezana - villa opicina, we'll taxi between them, having discovered that tram we'd be doing that even if there were a direct train.
the route is on here
http://gcerc.wordpress.com/route/
we are going sezana - villa opicina, we'll taxi between them, having discovered that tram we'd be doing that even if there were a direct train.
The SNCF / Trenitalia consortium which ran Paris - Italy sleepers until December 2011 was called Artesia. When Artesia was disbanded the Paris (was Bercy, now Gare de Lyon) - Milano Centrale - Venezia S. Lucia sleeper was taken over by Thello, a Trenitalia / Veolia Transdev consortium. Then Trenitalia announced that the Budapest - Ljubljana Venezia S. L. sleeper would be cancelled to allow Thello to run its train into a platform at Venezia S. Lucia. I don't understand why Thello can't have used Artesia's platform or indeed whole path (the space the train runs in for its journey - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_path for more details).
So there is no train service all the way from Ljubljana to Trieste (and beyond) any more.
Mark_Lester
Member
yes, there's nothing that goes over the border now. how the hell we can have the triglav national park, which is divine and has a world class railway right through the middle of it, and venice which is the original european tourist destination, not connected by a train service ? it's pathetic.
so much for the European Community.
There might be an answer to the Venice rucksack problem. There are a number of Pensions that have stored luggage rooms. I know of one that is only two (small) blocks from St. Mark's. I am willing to bet if a few Euro were to grease the palm of the front desk clerk you could stash all your rubbish all day long.
Mark_Lester
Member
Well, I was trying to find such a thing. Ideally it would be nearer the station, but all I could find in that zone was hotels talking about £100. All the little places seem to be further in.
I guess the trick is going to be not to bring sodding great back packs. But I find that hard, and I know the gals will want plenty of luggage.
Don't buy ANYTHING in or near the train station! Grab your bags, take the vaporetta to the Plaza, walk across in front of the church and go over the little bridge. Walk down about a block or so and turn right on the left hand side of the street. Go to the end of the street. You realize when I say "street" it is just two sidewalks with a ditch in between them. There is a pensione at the very end. It is literally across the canal(ditch) from the gondoliers' union. You will instantly know you are there. Dump your bags and then pick them up just before you get back on the vaporetta for the train station. Easy peasey! I am certain some unexpected tax-free Euros will make the desk clerk's day.
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http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/worlds-scariest-roller-coasters
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http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/worlds-scariest-roller-coasters
Mark_Lester
Member
Was listening to a radio 4's "more or less" yesterday, which was examining the claim that it would be cheaper for the Greeks to send everyone by private taxi rather than by train.
while that ultimately isnt true, it's about twice as expensive, it does seem that the Greek rail system is doomed. They may manage to keep Athens-Thessalonika, but everything else is going to get shut down.
I wasn't expecting the friendship train to re-appear any time soon, certainly not soon enough for our jaunt, but it does seriously raise questions about the likes of the Bulgarian system.
I've started putting blog posts together detailing the route, started with the chunnel which wasnt hard. Next up is this Thalys, so I'll prob start up a thread just about that to gleam some info that might be digestible by the masses.
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I am plodding through my write up of each train, largely as an SEO exercise to be honest, but it's fun and worth totting up bridges and other geographical and railway trivia.
I am up to train 3, the Borealis sleeper from amsterdam to cologne.
looking closer at the stops, this train is having directional problems.
it does duisburg dusseldorf cologne, so it's heading directly south for that, but it's next stop is Wuppertal, which is on the same latitude as dusseldorf, and then on to dormund for midnight and then saunters up to Hamburg for 4am.
this Hohenzollern Bridge is definitely worth ticking, I was wondering if we go over it twice and swap ends at Cologne. It's possible to come out of Dusseldorf heading west back over the Rhine, via Neuss, and come down to Koln on the west bank, but would be much more fun if we come down the east bank (which is the obvious mainline from what I can see from the map) and do this bridge twice. but the train leaves dusseldorf at 22:02, and then koln at 22:28, there just isnt enough time to get to koln, 20 miles away and change ends and then leave in 26 minutes flat, or am I underestimating the Germans ?. On reflection, I am thinking that perhaps our carriages dont even go to cologne, which would be a downer, this is the busiest railway bridge in all of deutschland.
The view on this pic is looking back westward, the station is to the right of the cathedral as you look at it on the west bank. so my secondary question is, can you see the cathedral as you pull in and out of the station heading east?.
while that ultimately isnt true, it's about twice as expensive, it does seem that the Greek rail system is doomed. They may manage to keep Athens-Thessalonika, but everything else is going to get shut down.
I wasn't expecting the friendship train to re-appear any time soon, certainly not soon enough for our jaunt, but it does seriously raise questions about the likes of the Bulgarian system.
I've started putting blog posts together detailing the route, started with the chunnel which wasnt hard. Next up is this Thalys, so I'll prob start up a thread just about that to gleam some info that might be digestible by the masses.
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I am plodding through my write up of each train, largely as an SEO exercise to be honest, but it's fun and worth totting up bridges and other geographical and railway trivia.
I am up to train 3, the Borealis sleeper from amsterdam to cologne.
looking closer at the stops, this train is having directional problems.
it does duisburg dusseldorf cologne, so it's heading directly south for that, but it's next stop is Wuppertal, which is on the same latitude as dusseldorf, and then on to dormund for midnight and then saunters up to Hamburg for 4am.
this Hohenzollern Bridge is definitely worth ticking, I was wondering if we go over it twice and swap ends at Cologne. It's possible to come out of Dusseldorf heading west back over the Rhine, via Neuss, and come down to Koln on the west bank, but would be much more fun if we come down the east bank (which is the obvious mainline from what I can see from the map) and do this bridge twice. but the train leaves dusseldorf at 22:02, and then koln at 22:28, there just isnt enough time to get to koln, 20 miles away and change ends and then leave in 26 minutes flat, or am I underestimating the Germans ?. On reflection, I am thinking that perhaps our carriages dont even go to cologne, which would be a downer, this is the busiest railway bridge in all of deutschland.
The view on this pic is looking back westward, the station is to the right of the cathedral as you look at it on the west bank. so my secondary question is, can you see the cathedral as you pull in and out of the station heading east?.
Glenmutchkin
Member
They also did a news feature on the daily train that ran from Berlin through East Germany to the west and vice versa. I travelled on this train in 1984 - it was like bei ng in a Le Carre novel. Great experience and the restaurant car prices were frozen at 1948.
When we did the Warsaw-Amsterdam sleeper we came into Cologne from the north and I was expecting us to reverse but we didn't. There is some kind of loop around the city that allowed the train to carry on and finish up heading north again.
Mark_Lester
Member
that Berlin train would have been so fab. even visiting Berlin in the early 90s was weird enough.
right, i can see there's the Südbrücke http://ivrpa.org/gallery/user/2793/still/südbrücke_raiway_bridge_over_riv a mile or so upstream.
The railway is suspended as it comes off that bridge, so it does look like you get a really good unobscured view of the cathedral as you pull in. The sun will have set 45 minutes ago as we roll in so it should look superb.
Amazingly, those two spires survived the war, they were just about the only things in the city not to get flattened.
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*STOP PRESS*
I thought that, on the way back south, we'd be doing a 3rd bridge to get from Denmark back into Deutschland, but this Roedby to Puttgarden link is actually a roll on roll off rail ferry! Whopeee!.
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oh fiddle sticks, I am reviewing Kobenhavn-Goteborg, and it seems the ic488 which took a convenient 3 hours 18 mins, has vanished completely from the schedule with no direct replacement.
ah, if I look at july this year it's been replaced by the R1056, which leaves 14 mins earlier at 13:32, and gets in 15 minutes later at 17:17. which at least works and is better than what is says for tomorrow, when according to bahn there is no direct train at all and it's taking an extra 2 hours, which we would obviously loose from the surgical strike on Copenhagen.
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I'm up to Oslo now, next post will be about the Norwegian sleepers.
Please pull me up on any flimsy rubbish I've posted up about the technical details of the route so far, especially if I've missed something important (e.g Watkin when talking about the history of continental railways and good ol' blighty).
Also, on the subject of The Great Central and Loughborough, I went into London yesterday and Tornado was parked at that shed at Southall.
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Yes, particularly when further away from the Hauptbahnhof.
A Google search on the topic of this sleeper brought up this on Drehscheibe Foren ("Turntable Forums", presumably a German railway site):
It describes the trains travelling towards Amsterdam but the organisation of the sleeper in the other direction is likely to be the same.
The train goes via Hannover and Köln because it is attached to CNL 473 Kobenhavn - Basel as far as Hannover and is attached to the EN Jan Kiepura which in turn gives its 2 through carriages from Moskva/Minsk to the CNL 473. That saves a driver and train manager and keeps the through carriages going. The path [someone asked why it didn't go via Bad Bentheim] would have to be arranged and paid for. Since the CNL 473 and Jan Kiepura are particularly punctual this is not a big problem. The CNL 473 gets to Basel around 10:00.
Mark_Lester
Member
I dont follow that Oscar, the basel->copenhagen train doesnt go via Koln, and the amsterdam->copenhagen train doesnt go via hanover.
The amsterdam-basel train is a later one, leaves at 20:31 from centraal.
I cant see that anything is shed at Koln, the prague and moscow stuff gets deposited at Bielefeld I think.
So I am as mystified as ever as to why this train goes all the way up the Rhine to cologne, though grateful for being able to tick off what I understand to be the busiest railway bridge in Europe, and getting a nice view of another UNSESCO world heritage object from the comfort of my CNL compartment, assuming the corridor is on the other side of course!.
I am assuming, based on Dave's testimony, that we arrive at Koln from the east bank, we'll be able to see the cathedral from quite a way off out of the right side of the train as we bank onto the bridge, and I guess we should get quite a stunning view of it on the left lit up as we come off this bridge at 10 miles an hour. I guess we'll be able to see it from a distance as we go back up the east bank, but not as we leave the hauptbahnhof.
Of course it might be that we do the loop first, but with just 26 minutes to play with between leaving dusseldorf and leaving koln, it surely does the quickest route which is down the east bank of the rhine then straight into the station.
The amsterdam-basel train is a later one, leaves at 20:31 from centraal.
I cant see that anything is shed at Koln, the prague and moscow stuff gets deposited at Bielefeld I think.
So I am as mystified as ever as to why this train goes all the way up the Rhine to cologne, though grateful for being able to tick off what I understand to be the busiest railway bridge in Europe, and getting a nice view of another UNSESCO world heritage object from the comfort of my CNL compartment, assuming the corridor is on the other side of course!.
I am assuming, based on Dave's testimony, that we arrive at Koln from the east bank, we'll be able to see the cathedral from quite a way off out of the right side of the train as we bank onto the bridge, and I guess we should get quite a stunning view of it on the left lit up as we come off this bridge at 10 miles an hour. I guess we'll be able to see it from a distance as we go back up the east bank, but not as we leave the hauptbahnhof.
Of course it might be that we do the loop first, but with just 26 minutes to play with between leaving dusseldorf and leaving koln, it surely does the quickest route which is down the east bank of the rhine then straight into the station.
I don't quite understand the reasoning being it completely either - apologies for not noting this earlier. There must be some (implied?) reason why the train to/from eastern Europe has to go via Köln. I will try to find out. Maybe there is a lot of demand for Köln - eastern Europe.
Basically:
Amsterdam - Kobenhavn and Amsterdam - Warszawa / Moskva run together via Köln to Hannover.
There there is lots of shunting, as the Amsterdam - Kobenhavn gets coupled to Basel - Kobenhavn and to coaches from Basel get attached to the Warszawa / Moskva train.
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The train does not reverse at Köln according to Dutch Wikipedia:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityNightLine#Treindiensten_CityNightLine
At the bottom it says:
(K) Train reverses at this station
K is not marked for Köln Hbf.
I never said it did, they will join at Hannover in the direction you're doing.
Yes, it does. It just doesn't stop for passengers.
I'm afraid this is irrelevant to the CNL you are catching and I never mentioned this train in the first place.
Basically:
Amsterdam - Kobenhavn and Amsterdam - Warszawa / Moskva run together via Köln to Hannover.
There there is lots of shunting, as the Amsterdam - Kobenhavn gets coupled to Basel - Kobenhavn and to coaches from Basel get attached to the Warszawa / Moskva train.
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The train does not reverse at Köln according to Dutch Wikipedia:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityNightLine#Treindiensten_CityNightLine
At the bottom it says:
Notes CityNightLine train services
(K) Train reverses at this station
K is not marked for Köln Hbf.
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Mark_Lester
Member
sorry, I wasnt being or wishing to sound critical, I just couldn't add it all up.
I'll go try and get my head round all this, and I'll add hanover on as another drive through
.edit: you said does NOT reverse, so I guess I've got this loop south bit right. and all shunting stuff happens at hanover, many thanks.
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Glenmutchkin
Member
????
As Oscar points out the Wikipedia link that he posted does not show a reverse at Koln.
It does list some brilliantly named trains such as the Pollux and Uranus. Great Circular Body Railway Challenge in 2017?
Mark_Lester
Member
sorry, i was talking pollux, just booting up.
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I have verified that we dont get to see Lake Vanern from the Gothenburg-Oslo train alas (biggest lake in western europe fyi, we're only a few yards away from it at one point) but we do go along the Göta älv, which forms part of the fabtastic Göta Canal that runs straight across to the baltic and we will obviously cross again on the way back down at Norrköping on the Stockholm-Copenhagen train.
It takes proper ships and we run straight along the side of it for much of the first 30 miles out of Gothenburg, then cross it at Trollhattan.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göta_Canal
"constructed by Thomas Telford", get in!.
actually, on the telford page it says he designed it and oversaw some of the initial stuff, but wasnt stood over the whole construction.
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Glenmutchkin
Member
I had a look in my MG Ball to see if I could clarify Koln. I think that we arrive from the north east, depart westwards and then loop to the south, then east and then back up towards the north.
Following the route north towards the Danish border I notice that the line does a 360 degree loop in Rendsburg. Pity that this will be in the middle of the night .
Following the route north towards the Danish border I notice that the line does a 360 degree loop in Rendsburg. Pity that this will be in the middle of the night .
Mark_Lester
Member
excellent, I think that's 7 so far, 4 on the Bernina, 2 in Bulgaria, and now this.
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and I just checked the sunrise, which should be just before 5 in the morning, just as we go through neumunster, so if you set your alarm off you can watch the spiral at rendsburg.
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and actually, that's the Kiel canal of course, so it's a definite case for the alarm clock.
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have some of that.
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Glenmutchkin
Member
Accommodation will need to be allocated on a Spiral Fan/ Non-fan basis if our first daybreak together is going to be harmonious
I wondered why there was a need to gain height on a spiral in almost totally flat north Germany.
Mark_Lester
Member
it gets better,that photo of the bridge, the reason for the loop on the other side, was taken from another train!, so you get a stonking good view of it.
Glenmutchkin
Member
Cracking Bridge Gromit
Mark_Lester
Member
I've seen it before, a superb one with a steam engine, not sure even if it was one of Mick's. I just had either forgotten or didnt realise we go over it.
It's a star attraction, no apologies are going to be offered for waking everyone up.
according to http://www.sunrisesunsetmap.com/ sunrise on sunday morning is 1 minute to 5, and we pull out of Neumuntser, a good 30 miles away, at 10 to.
It's a star attraction, no apologies are going to be offered for waking everyone up.
according to http://www.sunrisesunsetmap.com/ sunrise on sunday morning is 1 minute to 5, and we pull out of Neumuntser, a good 30 miles away, at 10 to.
Glenmutchkin
Member
See post 459
Mark_Lester
Member
right same canal, same idea, different place.
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this Göta Canal that we cross at Trollhättan has got a cracking elevating bridge
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/47175663
and there's a second cantilever bridge as well,
http://marinas.com/view/bridge/1163_Trollhattan_Railway_Bridge__Sweden
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just writing up the stockholm-copenhagen-hamburg-berlin section.
this X2 in Sweden is a titling train I see, which I understand uses "active tilt" technology which it says was developed by the APT team, am I right in that ?. Can we claim to have invented this ?. what I also didnt know is that APT actually ran in service of a whole year. where did they run ?.
Also, this rail ferry is one of the only two left, the other being the sicilly one we had to blow out.
For the capital, my German operatives have suggested we do this http://cms.trabi-safari.de/opencms/opencms/trabi-safari/en/_main/home/index.html. I dont know if we're going to be able to fit it in though, we might be too knackered on arrival for it to be worth it. We'd have to get to check point charlie and I doubt they are going to wait up for us.
I have travelled on the EN Jan Kiepura Amsterdam-Warsaw a few times so I can give some information based on past experiences.
1. The train travels via Koln because it is a major interchange and so a very useful stop. If the train is substantially delayed it tries to make up time by omitting Koln (and Dusseldorf?) with passengers from Koln travelling to Dortmund to catch the train there - this is not a rare occurance.
2. The train does not reverse at Koln. The train generally travels over the bridge before arriving at Koln in both directions, so the train arrives at Koln from the east both to Warsaw and to Amsterdam.
3. Delays on the EN Jan Kiepura are very common especially travelling eastwards. A delay of an hour or two is to be expected, but the last time I travelled on it I had a 6 hour delay!
1. The train travels via Koln because it is a major interchange and so a very useful stop. If the train is substantially delayed it tries to make up time by omitting Koln (and Dusseldorf?) with passengers from Koln travelling to Dortmund to catch the train there - this is not a rare occurance.
2. The train does not reverse at Koln. The train generally travels over the bridge before arriving at Koln in both directions, so the train arrives at Koln from the east both to Warsaw and to Amsterdam.
3. Delays on the EN Jan Kiepura are very common especially travelling eastwards. A delay of an hour or two is to be expected, but the last time I travelled on it I had a 6 hour delay!
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