The General Decline in Standards Today

[STEVIEBOY1]

I have just returned from a small group tour around Sussex and Kent, visiting the various preserved railways, one line we went on was the Kent & East Sussex, which was good but the staff were angry as the night before one of their stations had been vandalised by the local yobs/school kids who amongst other midless acts, had stolen or damaged some of the old fashioned lamps, which will cost the railway quite alot to get replaced. There is not much chance of catching the blokes that did this and even if they do, there won't be much of a penalty inflicted on them.
Talking about this later on a discussion came up about the general decline in standards and examples shown to children these days compared to 30-40 years ago. The opinion was that these days both parents have to work so leaving kids unsupervised and allowed generally to roam around on their own sometimes unchecked.
In schools too the teachers seem to have to spend far more time doing reports, performance figures, league tables etc and less time teaching the children, also when most of the group were at school the teachers were allowed to give unruly kids lines or dentention etc, (As I remember to my cost!). Now days there does not seem to be any way to keep order. Some of my group were saying that perhaps a return to some of the old ways would not be a bad thing.
We did sound like we should of been on the TV Programme, Grumpy Old Men, especially after the beers had been flowing for a while.

I will put a thread on the heritage-preserved railways forum re my recent trip.

 

[SS4]

While I agree with a lot of what you say IMO especially about teachers and discipline (idiots ****ing about in maths was frustrating in the extreme) there is not enough positive feedback for teenagers in particular either from their parents or from their school, the media or adults in general.

Indeed, in the media they're portrayed as the spawn of Satan, when a group of young people get together they're accused of intimidation whereas the same number of adults are not, under-age drinking/drugs is as common as night following day. Children are doing better in exams but it's automatically assumed that it's solely because exams are getting easier, more are going to uni not because they are intelligent enough but because the previous government set unrealistic targets.

IMO they do bad things because they're starved of attention. In my old school there was no reward for doing consistently well yet if you were bad then turned good for a week or two you'd get all kinds of rewards, it was almost enough to make me wonder what the point in being well-behaved was. At work often the only reward for doing consistently well (well is defined as exceeding targets) is more work and thence unrealistic targets. I'm not saying positive reinforcement will solve all the problems but I honestly think it will help some people decide to do something good with their lives.


tl;dr version - it boils down to attention. Children need to be rewarded for the good they do as well as being punished for the bad and proportional reporting of both needs to occur.
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It may also have something to do with some older people viewing the past with rose tinted glasses (the 'back in my day' lot if you will)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I will quote you an actual example of what happened within the last two weeks in Wythenshawe Park, in south Manchester. There was a small section put aside for young children to see small birds and amphibians.

A group of five teenage boys, some of them only 13 years old, broke into the compound and decapitated many small birds and speared a frog. They then proceeded to smash every window in the greenhouses nearby.

I can report that all the youths have been traced and charged with burglary, but I am not sure if charges were made about the fate of their victims. The "wall of silence" can sometimes fall down due to the disgust felt in the local community.

 

[HST Power]

A group of five teenage boys, some of them only 13 years old, broke into the compound and decapitated many small birds and speared a frog. They then proceeded to smash every window in the greenhouses nearby.

I can report that all the youths have been traced and charged with burglary, but I am not sure if charges were made about the fate of their victims. The "wall of silence" can sometimes fall down due to the disgust felt in the local community.

Absolutely outrageous.

What do the parents teach them?

They'll doubtlessly escape with nothing but a piece of caution paper and a pep talk from the local Sergeant.

 

[43021HST]

I will quote you an actual example of what happened within the last two weeks in Wythenshawe Park, in south Manchester. There was a small section put aside for young children to see small birds and amphibians.

A group of five teenage boys, some of them only 13 years old, broke into the compound and decapitated many small birds and speared a frog. They then proceeded to smash every window in the greenhouses nearby.

I can report that all the youths have been traced and charged with burglary, but I am not sure if charges were made about the fate of their victims. The "wall of silence" can sometimes fall down due to the disgust felt in the local community.

That is honestly sick, I often hear that murderers start off that way by killing animals to ease their own frustration with the world. I wonder whether all of this could esculate to community vigilante groups out to get teenagers. Its the minority making the majority look bad, and what the minority does the majority have to suffer for it. Its like that in so many areas of life.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Absolutely outrageous.

What do the parents teach them?

They'll doubtlessly escape with nothing but a piece of caution paper and a pep talk from the local Sergeant.

\

What those kids did in Wythenshaw is terrible, just awful. I hope the court comes down hard on them, but I have my doubts.
At the risk of being very un PC, I can't help thinking that the above action by those yobs does make a valid case to reintroduce corporal punishment in schools and the courts for certain offences.

 

[HST Power]

\
At the risk of being very un PC, I can't help thinking that the above action by those yobs does make a valid case to reintroduce corporal punishment in schools and the courts for certain offences.

Corporal punishment doesn't happen for criminals, so I doubt it would be implemented for children. Nonetheless, maybe such steps are necessary. Teachers need more power, social services need a boot up the backside and it's about time this country broke from Europe before our justice system gets flushed down the pan. Governments can't even blink at their citizens without being lynched by the courts in Strasbourgh.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Governments can't even blink at their citizens without being lynched by the courts in Strasbourgh.

Which is the Court of Human Rights - which is there to protect everyone's basic rights, nothing to do with the EU.

 

[HST Power]

Which is the Court of Human Rights - which is there to protect everyone's basic rights, nothing to do with the EU.

I didn't phrase my post very well, apologies!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I didn't phrase my post very well, apologies!

Oi, stop derailing the thread!

Seriously though, I'm pretty sure I can guess your opinions on Europe, and I'm pretty sure you can also guess mine!

 

[HST Power]

Oi, stop derailing the thread!

Seriously though, I'm pretty sure I can guess your opinions on Europe, and I'm pretty sure you can also guess mine!

Meh, I won't comment any further on this matter!

 

[Oswyntail]

There are three groups involved in the "decline of standards".
1. Children. Actually, the children I have worked with have been as hard-working, polite, enthusiastic and successful as children have always been, regardless of sex, class or race. This may be because I am teaching only the rejects, one-to-one, and treat them as individuals, or otherwise working with those who want to be there. What does make me cringe is hearing people of all ages lamenting "the youth of today" as if we were all little angels. I well remember the boy at school who pulled the wings off birds, or the one who dreampt about raping girls. But they were controlled by their...
2. Parents. I pity today's parents of young children, not because they don't know how to do it (most important job in the world and what training do we get?), but because their parents (and some grandparents) were brought up in the age of "do your own thing", when the emphasis in society reversed from "fitting in" to "this is my thing - live with it". A report in the paper today points out that children of parents who are frequently seen drunk tend to get drunk. The same is true of casual relationships, casual drug use, living off debt, excessive consumerism. If their parents did not tell them, how will they know how to feed a family for £5, stay in the black, or stay together as a family? Or discipline their children, when the boundaries that that requires are as foreign to them as speaking Latin. But parents adrift were helped by...
3. The wider community. Not the state, but friends, neighbours. And teachers. There are some magnificent teachers today, far better than there were in my school. But there are too many who are poor, unwilling to see their pupils as individuals, simply there to deliver lessons. Yes, there is a large admin burden, but that has been imposed largely by other teachers who think it makes them look professional.(including teachers who have gone into parliament)
Sorry, I am rambling. But what is needed is not more and varied punishments, most of which make things worse. Rather a complete social change, so that we all feel responsible, not only for ourselves but also our neighbours and all our communities, giving rather than just taking. Dare I say "Big Society"?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This thread is meant to be about general decline, not a specific incident regardless of the fact the media would like you to believe you'd be murdered within seconds of stepping out of the house

If you look at the posting # 3 that I made, I would say that the incident in question was a reflection of the decline in standards and a very salutory one at that.

It is interesting that the original thread question posed about declinng standards is somewhat mirrored by another thread currently running on the forum about FEET ON SEATS which in itself is another example of the very same thing.(IT IS ON THE NR GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUM)

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Corporal punishment doesn't happen for criminals, so I doubt it would be implemented for children. Nonetheless, maybe such steps are necessary. Teachers need more power, social services need a boot up the backside and it's about time this country broke from Europe before our justice system gets flushed down the pan. Governments can't even blink at their citizens without being lynched by the courts in Strasbourgh.

Yes point taken, it probably is most unlikely to happen, I think it was used in Manx courts until fairly recently, it's also used by courts in Malaysia & Singapore for anti social offences, I read that a man got it last year for damaging some if their metro trains, which seems fair enough. I would also like to say that I agree with your other comments here and I also agree with some other members here that not all kids are bad, a few spoil things and get all the publicity, but we have also been very pleasantly surprised and touched by the help and kindness of some teenagers towards my very elderly parents. I guess there is good and bad everywhere.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Surely it cannot be a coincidence that the timescale of the gradual withdrawl of corporal puishment from schools over a period of about 15 - 20 years more or less exactly matches the increase in "yobbery" and decrease in general respect?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Absolutely outrageous. What do the parents teach them? They'll doubtlessly escape with nothing but a piece of caution paper and a pep talk from the local Sergeant.

I very much doubt this as they have been formally charged with burglary. Burglary is defined by section 9 of the Theft Act 1968 as follows:-

A person is guilty of burglary if he enters any building or part of a building as a trespasser with intent to steal, inflict grievous bodily harm or rape or does unlawful damage to the building or any thing contaned within it.

 

[LE Greys]

I think the problem is similar to that with urban Foxes, the ones that aren't scared of Humans any more and therefore do what they like. I can remember being terrified of people in authority, and that was the only thing that stopped me doing what I liked. In my opinion, that's what "respect" was in reality. Living in fear may seem like a bad thing, but it keeps things stable and authority in power. Is it really so bad?

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I think the problem is similar to that with urban Foxes, the ones that aren't scared of Humans any more and therefore do what they like. I can remember being terrified of people in authority, and that was the only thing that stopped me doing what I liked. In my opinion, that's what "respect" was in reality. Living in fear may seem like a bad thing, but it keeps things stable and authority in power. Is it really so bad?

Yes I agree with what you say, we did look up to our school masters & policemen too and most adults in general, shopkeepers, park attendents, station & bus staff, we probably did fear them a bit, but I don't think we were any the worse off for that. I quite enjoyed my childhood in the 1960s & 1970s.
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Surely it cannot be a coincidence that the timescale of the gradual withdrawl of corporal puishment from schools over a period of about 15 - 20 years more or less exactly matches the increase in "yobbery" and decrease in general respect?

Yes, IMO, you are correct in what you say here. It was certainly used in my schools and was quite effective, it was only used after several warnings, mainly for things like smoking, drinking, fighting, vandalism, being regularly late etc, sometimes too for very bad work. It will always be a controversal subject though. rgds.

 

[Oswyntail]

Surely it cannot be a coincidence that the timescale of the gradual withdrawl of corporal puishment from schools over a period of about 15 - 20 years more or less exactly matches the increase in "yobbery" and decrease in general respect?

Actually it can be. What else has been going on in society at that time? I would say that the most obvious "symptom" has been the "Peter Pan" attitude of adults, wanting to cling on to their irresponsible youth. Eg, anyone else think it's slightly pathetic to see 50-year olds mooning over Robbie Williams? Grown ups have to be grown up before young people respect them and their discipline.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Actually it can be. What else has been going on in society at that time? I would say that the most obvious "symptom" has been the "Peter Pan" attitude of adults, wanting to cling on to their irresponsible youth. Eg, anyone else think it's slightly pathetic to see 50-year olds mooning over Robbie Williams? Grown ups have to be grown up before young people respect them and their discipline.

Yes, it is rather odd to see middle aged (and older) ladies going all star struck over the likes of Robbie Williams, Tom Jones, Manilow etc.

 

[NSEFAN]

Stevieboy1, was there cctv footage or otherwise to indicate that it was definitely kids who did the damage Kent & East Sussex?

 

[SS4]

I think the problem is similar to that with urban Foxes, the ones that aren't scared of Humans any more and therefore do what they like. I can remember being terrified of people in authority, and that was the only thing that stopped me doing what I liked. In my opinion, that's what "respect" was in reality. Living in fear may seem like a bad thing, but it keeps things stable and authority in power. Is it really so bad?

The only effect of fear is to cower people to make it easier to submit them to your will. It has been used for good and evil throughout history and continues to be used even today although more for bad things.

Cruelty commands respect. Men may hate us. But, we don't ask for their love; only for their fear

src - Wikiquote

Fear has it's place but it should be the major reason why young people look up to their elders. As Oswyntail stated a few posts back adults are more unwilling to accept that they've become older. To read many posts it suggests respect should be automatically given by young people to older people - balderdash. Politeness can be given but respect needs to be earned it doesn't matter if you're 16 or 60.

Young people today are too often tarred with the same brush. Could you imagine the uproar if it was printed that all the pensioners on the bus are rude, push in line and assume superiority over everyone else? Yet all children are branded as noisy, rude, aggressive fare-dodgers :roll:

 

[Greenback]

I don;t the decline in standards is down to young people at all. It's the older people, as has been touched on already, that have either allowed this to happen or lead their lives in such a poor way themselves that their offspring have very poor role models.

Of course, there are lots of good parents about who are able to discipline their children effectively, but each generation produces more children who have no one to teach them what is right and wrong. The idea of manners and consideration for others seems to be dying out, replaced by the notion that you can do whatever you want, even if you get caught not much is going to happen to you.

 

[theblackwatch]

Of course, there are lots of good parents about who are able to discipline their children effectively, but each generation produces more children who have no one to teach them what is right and wrong. The idea of manners and consideration for others seems to be dying out, replaced by the notion that you can do whatever you want, even if you get caught not much is going to happen to you.

When you see the state of some parents, it's hardly surprising how the kids turn out. I remember being at Llandrindod Wells a few years back, there was a family walking down the road about 3 or 4 pm - one kind in pushchair and another under 5. I suspect, juding by Dad's behaviour, they had been in the pub all afternoon, every sentence he shouted contained the 'f' word. A fine example and role model to the children. It seems responsibility is an optional extra for some people when it comes to parenthood.

 

[Yew]

Surely it cannot be a coincidence that the timescale of the gradual withdrawl of corporal puishment from schools over a period of about 15 - 20 years more or less exactly matches the increase in "yobbery" and decrease in general respect?

'Yob' Is just the modern word, look through history and there is an equvelent in every era. The differance is that the daily mail appeals to the 'baby boomer' generation by slagging off the new generation.

If you want the root of the problem, the word is called 'Exclusion' all the kinds who dont want to go to school misbehave, then get some days off school. Essensially rewarding them for their bad behavior. Give them decent teachers though , and its suprising how somone can become productive when they are correctly engaged ( I have seen this personally, find a way to put their intrests into education)

Streaming doesnt help for behavior either, putting all the less clever ones in the same class (usually resulting in the people who struggle with a subject going in with the ones who think they have better things to do, hence turning them to bad behavior) Ergo, a nass of students that cannot be controlled by any one teacher

 

[SS4]

Streaming doesn't help for behaviour either, putting all the less clever ones in the same class (usually resulting in the people who struggle with a subject going in with the ones who think they have better things to do, hence turning them to bad behaviour) Ergo, a nass of students that cannot be controlled by any one teacher

Streaming is essentially sacrificing those that are less clever so that the others can get higher grades and the school looks better. Then again is it fair or even right to acquiesce in the face of disruptive behaviour? I had that throughout school and I can only guess at how many hours were lost which would be better spent learning, especially in subjects like maths and science

 

[Oswyntail]

Streaming is essentially sacrificing those that are less clever so that the others can get higher grades and the school looks better....

Ah, the cynicism of the young! Done properly streaming (and...duck..selective schooling) should benefit everyone, with teaching being provided at the pace best suited to everyone in a class. What went wrong was when teachers "turned off" when they taught the less successful streams because they thought they were hopeless (just as parents branded their children "failures" when they went to Secondary Moderns). It's sad, but in the UK we always seem to want to crow over people worse off than ourselves. A nation of bullies, always have been, always will be.

 

[NSEFAN]

When I was at school, we had mixed ability sets. It was a nightmare. The less able were either not interested or couldn't keep up, so we had to move at the slowest pace. It wasn't really a problem at primary school, but at secondary school, and especially at GCSE, I sometimes had to teach myself after school because we just didn't have the time to cover it properly in class.

Speaking of decline in standards, what do people think about this? It seems relevant to this discussion. I personally don't like the government telling people how to live their lives, but then again some people just need to be told... :roll:

 

[SS4]

Speaking of decline in standards, what do people think about this? It seems relevant to this discussion. I personally don't like the government telling people how to live their lives, but then again some people just need to be told... :roll:

Popularist crap designed to inflame Daily Mail readers that will rightfully get nowhere
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Ah, the cynicism of the young! Done properly streaming (and...duck..selective schooling) should benefit everyone, with teaching being provided at the pace best suited to everyone in a class. What went wrong was when teachers "turned off" when they taught the less successful streams because they thought they were hopeless (just as parents branded their children "failures" when they went to Secondary Moderns). It's sad, but in the UK we always seem to want to crow over people worse off than ourselves. A nation of bullies, always have been, always will be.

I have to agree with you. I didn't mean to come across that cynical and it was more a reaction to the government setting targets without any expectation of how they'd be achieved in the real world. Surprisingly enough I do support it for the reasons you stated although I was consistently in the top set so being with the most able did enable me to learn more

 

[Greenback]

Unfortunately, there are some fathers that simply refuse to pay maintenance for their own children. I listened to a friend's conversation with her ex about money for the kids, in which he laughed out loud at her and said 'I'm not giving you any money, that's what benefits are for'.

I hasten to add that my friend had a full time job, as did her ex, but he expected child benefit and working tax credit to pay for his kids. To make it worse, he wanted to have more children with his new partner.