The Gatwick Express Issue

[yorkie]

So if I understand your point here.....

Virgin Trains is acceptable even though it is a brand not a company.
London Midland is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.
South West Trains is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.
Island Line is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.
Southeastern is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.
Southern is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.
Gatwick Express is not acceptable because it is a brand and not a company.

Am I close?

Not at all close.

Virgin Trains is clearly a Train Operating Company (TOC).
Southern is clearly a TOC.

But look at Gatwick Express' own website - who does it say the operator is? I look forward to your answer.

 

[mallard]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how "NXEA Only" can be valid on Stansted Express, while "Southern Only" isn't valid on Gatwick Express...

 

[Deerfold]

Not at all close.

But look at Gatwick Express' own website - who does it say the operator is? I look forward to your answer.

It used to say Southern - they seem to have removed that bit.

EDIT: No they haven't

 

[district]

This video says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FJP8QgNbZ4

I was going to board and challenge the train host with the NRCoC, but I never got round to it

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Theoretically, is it possible for a TOC to opt out of the NRCoC?

 

[yorkie]

Theoretically, is it possible for a TOC to opt out of the NRCoC?

Yep, and get no ORCATS money. Not if they're a franchise though

The London-Gatwick non-stop service is a commitment in the Southern franchise, and they are committed to accepting tickets in accordance with NRCoC. Not that Southern like to admit this, in fact some of their employees flat-out deny it!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yep, and get no ORCATS money. Not if they're a franchise though.

So it's a condition of ORCATS that they work to the NRCoC's?

 

[yorkie]

This video says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FJP8QgNbZ4

Indeed. And if we're on the subject of evidence-gathering I ask the deniers (hairyhandedfool, Chris Burchell - or whatever person he asks to reply on his behalf as he won't say anything himself - and anyone else.. ) the following questions:

1) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why do their trains reference to Southern?

2) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why is it that if you ask for a customer comments form at Victoria, their staff give you Southern forms?

3) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why is it that the catering staff and ticket office staff are wearing Southern uniform, yet are not contracted out, and are working for their employer?

4) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why have they not corrected their Wikipedia entry?

5) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why do they have no entry at Companies House? If they're a company they should do.

6) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why are they not listed in the NRCoC as a Train Operating Company?

7) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why does their website say they are "operated by" another Train Operating Company?

8) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why do Southern have them on their map as a Southern service and not in a thin black line as an "other operator" service?

9) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why does the Travelling with Southern page mention a different operator as if it was their own?

10) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why have they given several members of this forum their money back when they have used Southern Only tickets and been (incorrectly) charged by the ticket inspector?

11) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why have several members of this forum been able to use Southern Only tickets and the inspectors have been satisfied that the train is operated by Southern and not charged them? (Far more people in this category than the one above, I might add)

12) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why do they not put Gatwick Express on their trains? Is it perhaps because these units are, in fact Southern trains that operate two Express services: Brighton Express and Gatwick Express?

13) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why are all their staff employed by another company? (from the MD to the caterers!)

14) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why did Chris Burchell himself admit that Southern "operate" the service in an interview? He may deny that Southern is the operating company now but he wasn't denying it then!

The chances of getting adequate answers to these questions is, I accept, nil.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So it's a condition of ORCATS that they work to the NRCoC's?

That's my understanding. You can't refuse to honour tickets in accordance with the NRCoC, and yet still take the money from the sale of tickets. West Coast and NYMR are operating companies with a license to operate trains over the National Rail network, but they aren't TOCs as defined in the NRCoC.

The NRCoC is quite clear, see condition 10 and Appendix 1 for the definition of company!

 

[bb21]

So if I understand your point here.....

Virgin Trains is acceptable even though it is a brand not a company.

Virgin Trains refers to West Coast Trains Limited in its entirety and hence can be a substitute for a TOC restriction.

London Midland is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.

London Midland refers to London & Birmingham Railway Limited in its entirety and hence can be a substitute for a TOC restriction.

South West Trains is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.
Island Line is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.

Strictly speaking, no, as the company is called Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited, however tickets routed "SWT Only" or "Island Line Only" (examples please) has no room for confusion as to whether they are valid on each others' trains as there is no overlap in the operating areas.

Southeastern is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.

Southeastern refers to London & South Eastern Railway Limited in its entirety and hence can be a substitute for a TOC restriction.

Southern is acceptable even though it is a brand and not a company.
Gatwick Express is not acceptable because it is a brand and not a company.

Southern, when taken to mean the brand, in the context of "Southern Only" cannot be a TOC restriction, which is contrary to the NRCOC. It is only consistent with the NRCOC when taken to mean the TOC, which includes Gat Ex.

Am I close?

No. I have a feeling that you are deliberately missing the point.

 

[shinkansen1966]

11) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why have several members of this forum been able to use Southern Only tickets and the inspectors have been satisfied that the train is operated by Southern and not charged them? (Far more people in this category than the one above, I might add)

I was wondering this.

If you have a ticket marked 'southern only' , you can use it on Southern's Gatwick Express service.

What would be an instance of a ticket marked 'southern only' ?

 

[John @ home]

What would be an instance of a ticket marked 'southern only' ?

For example, Chichester - London Terminals has a set of fares routed "Any Permitted" and set by SWT. It also has a set of rather less expensive fares routed "Southern Only" and set by Southern.

 

[shinkansen1966]

It also has a set of rather less expensive fares routed "Southern Only" and set by Southern.

Ah, interesting.

And a ticket like this would be valid on Southern's Gatwick Express service ?

 

[AlterEgo]

That's the whole point of this thread!

 

[yorkie]

Ah, interesting.

And a ticket like this would be valid on Southern's Gatwick Express service ?

Yes it is. Inspectors may have a discussion with you regarding whether or not the train is operated by Southern or not. If they 'win' the discussion, or you choose not to enter a defence, they will charge an excess fare, this excess fare has been refunded in all known cases that I am aware of. However many people who were interested in challenging this, were unable to do so as the inspectors accepted their tickets.

Basically it's a bit of a honey-pot trap whereby most passengers will just pay up, especially tourists. But know your stuff, and you will be either not charged, or refunded.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

And a ticket like this would be valid on Southern's Gatwick Express service ?

A 'Southern Only' ticket would only be valid on services operated by Southern.

"Southern Only" = "Only On Southern"
What's the problem?

Or perhaps,

"Southern Only" = "Not Some Southern and Not any that are Not Southern"

but having just spent / wasted a day in Court arguing over words meaning different thing with or without capital letters (again!), then I can only resort to Lewis Carroll for help:-

"‘When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.'

‘The question is,' said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things."

‘The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master—that's all.'"

From "Through The Looking Glass and What Alice Found There", Lewis Carroll, 1871 and appropriated by Southern Railways at their leisure

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....No. I have a feeling that you are deliberately missing the point.

I don't think so, atleast it's not deliberate.

My current understanding of the point you make is that Gatwick Express does not represent any of the services of Southern Railway Limited (who are the TOC) at the moment (as it appears Gatwick Express is not mentioned in the current NRCoC) and not all of the services in the near future. So there cannot be a restriction based on that. However Southern, which apparently won't represent all the services of Southern Railway Limited in the near future, is only acceptable until the change.

Perhaps a better example of what I'm saying than Island Line is Heathrow Connect. Is a 'FGW only' ticket valid on Heathrow Connect (or rather, will it be when the new NRCoC comes into effect)? It, and First Great Western will both be a brand for First Greater Western Limited.

Indeed. And if we're on the subject of evidence-gathering I ask the deniers (hairyhandedfool, Chris Burchell - or whatever person he asks to reply on his behalf as he won't say anything himself - and anyone else.. ) the following questions:

1) If Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company, why do their trains reference to Southern?

....

I'll stop you there. I haven't said Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company (infact I have said the opposite) so the questions are largely irrelevant to me. I have said the TOC is Southern Railway Limited and Gatwick Express is a brand, just like Southern is a brand. Also, I'm of the opinion that Southern tickets should be valid on Gatwick Express (not that my opinion counts for much), but with the new NRCoC indentifying them as separate entities (rightly or wrongly), it doesn't intially seem as clear cut as you seem to say (or atleast not for the reasons mentioned). I simply seek to understand the argument on both sides atm.

On the basis of the Southern Railway website currently, they seem happy to consider Gatwick Express as part of their company. Is the issue really that 'Gatwick Express' staff have not been fully briefed on this/are not willing to accept they are part of Southern? Or is there something more to it?

....The NRCoC is quite clear, see condition 10 and Appendix 1 for the definition of company!

So, is Virgin Trains a Train Operating Company? If not, why is it acceptable to have a TOC specific ticket for them? If Virgin Trains is a Train Operating Company, why is Gatwick Express not?

 

[yorkie]

However Southern, which apparently won't represent all the services of Southern Railway Limited in the near future, is only acceptable until the change.

The only change to the NRCoC is a formatting one! That doesn't form a company.

You are normally good at reading the T&Cs, sometimes mis-interpreting them but normally you do apply them to the letter.

Does Condition 10 state tickets may be restricted by Company or brand? What does Appendix 1 say about how a Company is defined?

Perhaps a better example of what I'm saying than Island Line is Heathrow Connect. Is a 'FGW only' ticket valid on Heathrow Connect (or rather, will it be when the new NRCoC comes into effect)? It, and First Great Western will both be a brand for First Greater Western Limited.

I'm not sure on that, the information available is contradictory and unclear. It appears to be a company that is a joint operation by two parent companies but more research would be needed.

I'll stop you there. I haven't said Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company (infact I have said the opposite) so the questions are largely irrelevant to me. I have said the TOC is Southern Railway Limited and Gatwick Express is a brand, just like Southern is a brand.

Gatwick Express is a brand but Southern is clearly a TOC.

Also, I'm of the opinion that Southern tickets should be valid on Gatwick Express (not that my opinion counts for much), but with the new NRCoC indentifying them as separate entities (rightly or wrongly),

Separate what? Lets not cloud the issue with "entities", Condition 10 refers to Companies and this is defined in Appendix A.

it doesn't intially seem as clear cut as you seem to say (or atleast not for the reasons mentioned). I simply seek to understand the argument on both sides atm.

The definition in Appendix A seems clear cut to me!

On the basis of the Southern Railway website currently, they seem happy to consider Gatwick Express as part of their company.

When it suits, yes they are happy.

Is the issue really that 'Gatwick Express' staff have not been fully briefed on this/are not willing to accept they are part of Southern? Or is there something more to it?

Discussions with them can be 'interesting' and can go round in circles. I think there is "more to it".

So, is Virgin Trains a Train Operating Company? If not, why is it acceptable to have a TOC specific ticket for them? If Virgin Trains is a Train Operating Company, why is Gatwick Express not?

Clearly yes, Virgin WC is a TOC.

Gatwick Express is not a company, does not operate trains (their own website admits that they are "operated by Southern" and you can't really say they are a TOC if they are neither train operating nor a company.

 

[radamfi]

Any thoughts on the NXEA/Stansted Express issue? This would seem quite critical, given that Stansted Express also serve intermediate stations so if 'NXEA only' tickets are not valid on Stansted Express then these stations would have much fewer trains. At least with the Gatwick Express there is usually another Southern train a few minutes later.

 

[island]

Do NXEA ONLY tickets exist?

 

[mallard]

Do NXEA ONLY tickets exist?

Yes (e.g. London-Cambridge). AFAIK there has never been an issue with acceptance on "Stansted Express" services.

 

[radamfi]

There are also NXEA+Southern tickets (e.g. Three Bridges to Cambridge) which may or may not be valid on the Gatwick Express and Stansted Express!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The only change to the NRCoC is a formatting one! That doesn't form a company....

It is "clearly" more than just formatting, an additional trading name/brand is there for Southern Railway Limited.

....Does Condition 10 state tickets may be restricted by Company or brand? What does Appendix 1 say about how a Company is defined?....

Condition 10 says...

....The validity of a ticket may:

a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit

travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket....

Appendix 1 says...

....“Train Company” means a company operating passenger railway services which
is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the
Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these
companies can be found in Appendix C. “Train Companies” means all or more
than one of these Companies;....

Now, Virgin Trains is a trading name (as Gatwick Express will be) so is that, or is it not, a "Train Company"?

The problem I have is that either trading names can be a "Train Company", or they can't, I don't see how it can be both ways. If trading names are "Train Companies", then Gatwick Express will become a "Train Company" (in terms of the NRCoC if nothing else). If not, Virgin Trains is not "Train Company" and such restrictions on tickets could be illegal (infact I'd say it calls the use of 'VWC' into question as this is neither the company listed nor the trading name for it).

....Gatwick Express is a brand but Southern is clearly a TOC....

'Southern' is a trading name of Southern Railway Limited, just as Gatwick Express is going to be (in the new NRCoC).

....Clearly yes, Virgin WC is a TOC....

Virgin WC? that doesn't even appear in the NRCoC!

Virgin Trains is a trading name.

West Coast Trains Limited is a company.

 

[mallard]

Until someone explains how/why the situation with Gatwick Express is/should be different to that with Stansted Express, I for one am not going to get too involved in a discussion over the technicalities of the language within the NRCoC.

A new definition of "company" wholly for the purposes of ticket restrictions... what?

In all other cases there is a 1:1 relationship between "trading name" and "company". (Except possibly Island Line/SWT, where the issue does not come up). In this case there are two "trading names" (Gatwick Express and Southern), but only one company. The NRCoC says:

....The validity of a ticket may:

a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit

travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket....

So, tickets can be restricted only to a "company" not to a particular "trading name".

 

[richw]

So, tickets can be restricted only to a "company" not to a particular "trading name".

yes thats correct, the reason virgin is acceptable is it is the only trading name of West coast trains (or whatever they are called)
As the Southern rail company have two trading names, this is not acceptable for restrictions, as the restrictions must cover all trading names of that operating company.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

yes thats correct, the reason virgin is acceptable is it is the only trading name of West coast trains (or whatever they are called)
As the Southern rail company have two trading names, this is not acceptable for restrictions, as the restrictions must cover all trading names of that operating company.

Is there an official source for that information?

 

[jon0844]

I wonder how ATOC/DfT or whoever needs to care would have looked at the restriction text for Virgin. If they'd written the TOC name, nobody (the public) would have known as the brand name is 'Virgin'.

So they probably agreed that was best and most logical.

When it came to Southern, the same principle applied - except Southern is the brand AND the company name. So it's ambiguous.

I wonder if anyone really looked at this that closely, or else they'd have said 'SOUTHERN not GATEX' or whatever fits. Perhaps nobody thought about it, which is where the problem arose.

In the case of Stansted Express, isn't it the case that NXEA wouldn't care as they set a higher price for Stansted - so whatever train someone takes, those going to the airport pay a premium (how many tourists know to get a ticket further on and stop short?).

It is a bit different for Gatwick, not least because there's competition and trains can carry on beyond the station in both directions.

Nevertheless, as long as they say 'SOUTHERN' on the ticket and Gatwick Express is operated by Southern, I'd see them standing no chance of winning any case that was allowed to court - which won't happen because Southern would be worried about it happening. Thus, they can just bluff their way - like threatening foreign travellers with arrest and overnight detention for not having a UK address!

Most people won't fight, but comply.. which just encourages them! (note; encourages the bad ones, as we've seen that many won't argue and probably apply common sense given they're wearing Southern issued uniforms!)

 

[mallard]

I wonder if anyone really looked at this that closely, or else they'd have said 'SOUTHERN not GATEX' or whatever fits. Perhaps nobody thought about it, which is where the problem arose.

Even if they did mark the tickets "SOUTHERN not GATEX", they would still require a change to the NRCoC, since there is no provision within it for restricting tickets by "trading name", only by company.

Maybe we should organise a protest/publicity exercise where we get as many people as possible to travel on a particular "Gatwick Express" with tickets marked "Southen Only"...

 

[Zoe]

When conditions of tickets have been discussed before, these conditions have been taken exactly as written in that where you have an advance ticket with no reservations for part of the journey and it does not say &connections, the onus is on you to ask for an iteniry or to write down the trains you are told you should travel on by the ticket office and that by travelling on a train other than you were told you are breaking the conditions of the ticket regardless of if an reservation coupon or not. I suggest that the same is done here and that the validity of the ticket is taken literally from the terms and conditions.

 

[richw]

When conditions of tickets have been discussed before, these conditions have been taken exactly as written in that where you have an advance ticket with no reservations for part of the journey and it does not say &connections, the onus is on you to ask for an iteniry or to write down the trains you are told you should travel on by the ticket office and that by travelling on a train other than you were told you are breaking the conditions of the ticket regardless of if an reservation coupon or not. I suggest that the same is done here and that the validity of the ticket is taken literally from the terms and conditions.

The condition being discussed is "southern only" which restricts to all services operated by Southern,...the Gatwick express is operated by Southern, so theoretically valid, but some are finding this not the case!

 

[Zoe]

The condition being discussed is "southern only" which restricts to all services operated by Southern,...the Gatwick express is operated by Southern, so theoretically valid, but some are finding this not the case!

This could be resolved by allowing TOCs to restrict the use of tickets on certain branded services although the services that could be restricted would have to be regualted or the likes of FGW could start using NOT CORNISH RIVIERA tickets and so on.