The future of ticketing for under 18s

[james_the_xv]

Currently travelling on an LNER service in the quiet coach where there are two quite loud families with young children - and it has got me thinking.

1) Should all children be required to hold a valid ticket? Currently under 5s can travel without a ticket and 5-15s are classed as children. It’s not like under 5s take up less space on a train (they still need a seat for the most part - apart from newborns).

2) Should all child tickets be ineligible for reservations in the quiet coach? I normally prefer to travel in the quiet coach if I’m travelling alone/need to work and have never once been bothered by people talking at low levels or even a quiet phone call. But it seems many are bothered by the noise some children (and their parents/devices) make in a space specifically designed as a quieter area.

3) Should how child tickets are sold change? Personally I think there should be child tickets (0-12, 2/3rds off regular price, ineligible for 1st class or quiet coach) Young adult tickets (13-17, 1/3rd off regular price, ineligible for first class) and then normal adult tickets at 18+ with any railcards on top of that.

I’m not normally bothered by children and noise, but there were a good few people in this quiet coach who obviously were bothered, would be interesting to hear other’s thoughts.

 

[Snow1964]

I think the Op is mixing poorly behaved people and age

I once managed to get First class on a BA flight, and there were more children than adults, they were all impeccably quiet and behaved, meanwhile there were noisy /rowdy drunken adults in the cheaper seats.

However I have also traveled in quiet coach on a train, and got annoyed by noise of someone tapping keys on a laptop keyboard. Using a laptop is not a quiet activity so perhaps anything that requires tapping should be banned from quiet coaches

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't think it would be reasonable to ban children from quiet coaches, from a disability discrimination perspective. It would also be disproportionate - the vast majority of children do not cause a problem, and there are plenty of adults who do. The correct solution is just for the guard to pass through the quiet coach frequently and move people who aren't observing it.

I would support making First Class a supplement on top of the standard-class fare. A child would pay the same as an adult for this supplement, but obviously for the child it would be on top of a child ticket while for the adult it would be on top of an adult ticket.

 

[james_the_xv]

I think the Op is mixing poorly behaved people and age

I once managed to get First class on a BA flight, and there were more children than adults, they were all impeccably quiet and behaved, meanwhile there were noisy /rowdy drunken adults in the cheaper seats.

However I have also traveled in quiet coach on a train, and got annoyed by noise of someone tapping keys on a laptop keyboard. Using a laptop is not a quiet activity so perhaps anything that requires tapping should be banned from quiet coaches

I don’t think I’ve travelled on a train with a young child on that has been reasonably quiet enough for what we deem acceptable for a quiet coach. This is no ones fault, it‘s just in the nature of young children to be loud. That still doesn’t mean they should be able to travel on a quiet coach and potentially disrupt 50+ people in my opinion. Not to mention those who choose to travel in quiet coaches due to sensory issues.

 

[py_megapixel]

Not to mention those who choose to travel in quiet coaches due to sensory issues.

Some of them are children, though.

I don’t think I’ve travelled on a train with a young child on that has been reasonably quiet enough for what we deem acceptable for a quiet coach.

I suspect you simply don't notice the people who are sitting there quietly minding their own business - one is more likely to notice people who are being noisy, regardless of age.

 

[zwk500]

I don’t think I’ve travelled on a train with a young child on that has been reasonably quiet enough for what we deem acceptable for a quiet coach. This is no ones fault, it‘s just in the nature of young children to be loud. That still doesn’t mean they should be able to travel on a quiet coach and potentially disrupt 50+ people in my opinion. Not to mention those who choose to travel in quiet coaches due to sensory issues.

I've been on plenty of air and train journeys where a 10 year old with a game and some headphones has been as quiet as anybody could wish. Banning them from the quiet coach is an overreaction, although I do think that there should be 'family coaches' where louder children can let off steam, which I think Chiltern did quite successfully at one point (and DB currently do).

 

[Peter0124]

In my opinion I can see how families with babies/toddlers should be banned from the quiet coach, in fact there was one crying loudly in there (for quite a while) on an Avanti train a while ago and ironically moving to coach U was far quieter. I suffer with sensory issues and crying/screaming toddlers is up there as one of the most distressing things to listen to ever since I was fairly young.

In my opinion I would say anyone 5+ could use the quiet coach provided they are also keeping noise to a minimum like everyone else and of course medical exemptions would apply to anyone under 5.

I also believe the coach should be enforced more by members of staff eg the train manager, perhaps finding and allowing those with families (of babies and toddlers) who join the quiet coach who are being noisy or screaming to sit at free tables in other coaches. Or maybe there should be a family coach somewhere, where every seat is a table seat of four with plenty of space for prams. Maybe coach D or E (on Avanti Pendolinos) could become that?

 

[adamedwards]

Several years ago when our children were aged 6 and 10, we booked to go to scotland with LNER and our seats were in the quiet coach even though we had not specified this, alongside a second family. The train manager even came along and told us off for being there when it was not our fault and we did our very best to keep the kids entertained with the things we brought with us.

Contrast this with possibly the worst journey we had ever coming back from Birmingham in 2018 on the 19:15 Pendolino full of drunk belching men who had been to see Chelsea play Villa. We were treated to horrendous nasty conversations about it being ok to hit ones girlfriend if she steps out of line and beating people up being ok if people showed no respect. We were delayed for 15 mins at Coventry whilst BTP came to try to deal with some of the "fans". In the end we could stand the hideous language and sexism no more and moved only to find groups of these horrible men (mostly white 40-50 somethings) in every carriage so we ended up standing in the vestibule to first class to get away from them. Since then I have firmly believed there should be no alchohol served on any trains and drunk people should not be allowed to travel because of the adverse impact this has on everyone else. My daughter had a grim journey on TPE this weekend with drunk Man City fans (at lunchtime!) on a Leeds to Liverpool journey.

So sorry, kids in quiet coaches may be by accident and far less challenging thank drunk nasty men.

 

[30907]

1) Should all children be required to hold a valid ticket? Currently under 5s can travel without a ticket and 5-15s are classed as children. It’s not like under 5s take up less space on a train (they still need a seat for the most part - apart from newborns).

Under 5s needing a seat should have tickets as per the rules and regs, and when you have a F and F railcard it's advantageous anyway (as I discovered many years ago). And BTW the discount is Standard class only.

PS children take up as much space as adults anyway (possibly more, remembering the amount of stuff we had to take....), so the discount isn't based on that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see a need for ticketing to be changed, but I do think staff should proactively enforce quiet coaches, and that on long trains like Pendolinos and 9 car 80x a specific family coach should be provided.

 

[87 027]

I can see the logic in that position but I suspect the easier option for operators may be to abandon rather than enforce separate quiet and family coaches.

As an aside, a number of years ago when my kids were primary school age our seat reservations on the East Coast route were changed at the last minute due to change of stock formation and indeed we found the new reservations were in separate airline seats across different coaches. I saw this as a potential safeguarding issue (long journey - what if I needed to go to the loo?) so raised this on departure with the train conductor. To their credit they immediately and without quibble sought out a vacant set of 4 seats around a table which just happened to be in first class. The kids were as good as gold and I do sympathise with the OP but sometimes there is a bigger picture and families shouldn't be split up

 

[Neptune]

A friend of mine was once travelling on a Saturday morning with their family from Leeds to London (kids were prob 3&5 at the time and was the first decent length journey by train with them) and they were booked in the quiet coach (not their fault, that’s where the booking system put them).

The kids had a tablet and some headphones to keep them quiet and amused. After an hour or so the youngest started to play up (as 3 year olds do) so he took them to the vestibule for a few minutes as they calmed down. When he returned to his seat he found out someone had approached his wife and said something on the lines of ‘this is the quiet coach, your noisy children don’t belong in here’.

They drive everywhere now needless to say and I don’t blame them. This is what having unnecessarily bad experiences in quiet coaches can do to families, especially as trains in the UK have no family friendly facilities.

 

[py_megapixel]

Both @adamedwards and @Neptune have mentioned automatically getting reservations in the quiet coach without asking for it. Would it possibly make sense for the booking engines to not allocate quiet coach seats to bookings with children in unless quiet coach is specifically selected?

I do find it silly that there's no way of explicitly specifying that you don't want to be in the quiet coach; the options generally boil down to "yes" and "no preference", which doesn't cover everyone

 

[YorksLad12]

It does seem, at the very least, annoying that you get booked in a Quiet Coach even when specifically asking not to be. When you book direct through LNER you can move your reservation out of H, or B, or wherever the quiet coach is these days - which is another problem. Which *is* the Quiet Coach?

I'm all in favour of dry trains if there's a way to stop people loading up beforehand, getting on board with cans and being generally D&D; or of policing such trains. From previous experience of 'Trojan bus' operations, riot squad members are always up for some overtime

As for the bloke waiting for the husband to leave before making his comments... what an utter expletive deleted. I dislike any sort of external noise when travelling but that "we don't want your sort here" attitude is beyond the Pale.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both @adamedwards and @Neptune have mentioned automatically getting reservations in the quiet coach without asking for it. Would it possibly make sense for the booking engines to not allocate quiet coach seats to bookings with children in unless quiet coach is specifically selected?

I do find it silly that there's no way of explicitly specifying that you don't want to be in the quiet coach; the options generally boil down to "yes" and "no preference", which doesn't cover everyone

Yes, I do find that a bit strange.

However, I'd also note that playing electronic devices out loud is not acceptable in any coach and I would like staff to enforce this proactively. Just use headphones!