The future of the Heathrow Express

[mattdickinson]

Trying to fit non stop trains through the Crossrail core just isn't happening. HEx would be better off going up Acton bank and trying to get into Euston than trying to access Bond Street. (Wonder how long that would end up taking, actually).

One of the orignail proposals for the Heathrow Express was to run to St Pancras via the Dudding Hill line.

Heathrow Airport transport proposals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[cle]

I remember that. Didn't last so long.

I don't think there is a connection between HS2 and GWML (?) at OOC - and if there was it would probably be on the relief side (vs HEx on the fasts) - but it's a fun idea; Euston - OOC - Heathrow non-stop.

 

[JamesT]

I don't think there is a connection between HS2 and GWML (?) at OOC - and if there was it would probably be on the relief side (vs HEx on the fasts) - but it's a fun idea; Euston - OOC - Heathrow non-stop.

Correct, GWML is on the surface, HS2 is down in a tunnel at OOC. If you were going to connect the two you would have needed to design it in before they started tunnelling. (and where would you put the tunnel portals?)

 

[Bald Rick]

In a world of hyoptheticals...

Could HEX explore using the reliefs and running at the Elizabeth Line speed, but actually continuing to serve one stop in central London (maybe) and then Canary Wharf. Possibly Liverpool Street would work because that has the Bank financial district nearby. The speed would not be any different to EL, but the comfort and perceived convenience versus the EL would be.

Thats what the Elizabeth Line does, ie use the Relief Lines, at Elizabeth Line speed, to Canary Wharf (and Abbey Wood). Any HEx train would need to be to the Elizabeth Line rolling stock specification (signalling, door spacing, acceleration, heat dump vent locations, etc), and run to the same pathing as the Elizabeth Line, and take some of the existing paths, which stop at all stations. Essentially, it would be the Elizabeth Line.

 

[Simon11]

Happy to be corrected but I am under the impression that the GWR relief lines are more congested than the fast lines.

So it isn't straightforward to throw Heathrow Express services on the reliefs to compete with Elizabeth line, freight and other services with differing speeds and stopping patterns.

 

[Bald Rick]

Happy to be corrected but I am under the impression that the GWR relief lines are more congested than the fast lines.

So it isn't straightforward to throw Heathrow Express services on the reliefs to compete with Elizabeth line, freight and other services with differing speeds and stopping patterns.

The Reliefs are effectively full on the current service pattern. The only way HEx could use them on a planned regular basis is by taking existing EL or freight paths.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Reliefs are effectively full on the current service pattern. The only way HEx could use them on a planned regular basis is by taking existing EL or freight paths.

…when the government has committed to a 75% growth in rail freight by 2050 target too.

 

[bramling]

The Reliefs are effectively full on the current service pattern. The only way HEx could use them on a planned regular basis is by taking existing EL or freight paths.

How does that work with any aspiration to increase EL services? Or does it mean any additional EL services cannot run west of Paddington?

 

[Bald Rick]

…when the government has committed to a 75% growth in rail freight by 2050 target too.

committed to a target of 75% growth in rail freight, which is a slightly different thing.

With the construction materials sector shrinking at present (and with HS2 issues knocking a big chunk off the medium term market), petroleum products similarly, and biomass likely to reduce with the increase in solar power, the scrap metal to arc furnaces market is going to have to do a lot of heavy lifting, literally.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2025 ==

How does that work with any aspiration to increase EL services? Or does it mean any additional EL services cannot run west of Paddington?

They won’t be going west of OOC (there is capacity that far)

 

[bramling]

They won’t be going west of OOC (there is capacity that far)

Ah okay. Is that because freight is all west of Acton Yard / coming off the NLL?

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah okay. Is that because freight is all west of Acton Yard / coming off the NLL?

Yep

 

[itfcfan]

They won’t be going west of OOC (there is capacity that far)

Does this mean that the reported TfL aspirations of running 4tph Crossrail to Heathrow T5 (combined to make 8tph Crossrail to Heathrow T2&3) are impractical?

London Reconnections: Crossrail: 4tph to Terminal 5?https://www.londonreconnections.com/2025/crossrail-4tph-to-terminal-5/

We were slightly surprised by a fairly recent article in the Evening Standard suggesting that Andy Lord, TfL Commissioner for Transport, wants to at least double the number of Crossrail trains to Heathrow Terminal 5.

To be clear, this sounds a bit more dramatic than it is given that doubling the number of Crossrail trains actually means increasing from 2 trains per hour (tph) to 4tph and, in any case, Heathrow Terminal 5 rail station is already served by 4tph Heathrow Express trains so the total increase would be from 6tph to 8tph.

It is not the suggestion that surprised us for it has been talked about for years, it was the timing and it being initiated by TfL. However, on reflection, both factors would appear to make sense.

Or does it mean there needs to be a general recast in service patterns (e.g. remove the skip-stopping and have every passenger service on the relief lines stop at every station)?

 

[Djgr]

Does this mean that the reported TfL aspirations of running 4tph Crossrail to Heathrow T5 (combined to make 8tph Crossrail to Heathrow T2&3) are impractical?



Or does it mean there needs to be a general recast in service patterns (e.g. remove the skip-stopping and have every passenger service on the relief lines stop at every station)?

Can you add two extra Elizabeth line tph without removing two HEx tph?

 

[hwl]

Does this mean that the reported TfL aspirations of running 4tph Crossrail to Heathrow T5 (combined to make 8tph Crossrail to Heathrow T2&3) are impractical?

In the difficult category...

Or does it mean there needs to be a general recast in service patterns (e.g. remove the skip-stopping and have every passenger service on the relief lines stop at every station)?

That there needs to be a recast and probably platform work at T5 bringing at least 1 faces on the hidden platform island into use. The current 2tph Shenfield - T5 destination pairing might have to shift to Abbey Wood - T5 as would the extra 2tph.

 

[cle]

I would think it might be more flighting, vs all stoppers. For instance, more services (likely Slough-bound) to skip West Ealing or Southall - which might create a path when aggregated? And more skip stopping ...e.g. nothing calls both Hanwell and West Ealing... remembering the Hayes bay could be used potentially if something was catching up!

 

[Bald Rick]

Or does it mean there needs to be a general recast in service patterns (e.g. remove the skip-stopping and have every passenger service on the relief lines stop at every station)?

It’s a conundrum. But fitting more than 10tph Elizabeth line with 4tph freight is something that is definitely in the ‘very difficult’ category.

My understanding was that 4tph EL to T5 was at the expense of T4. Which feels right.

 

[Bigbru]

It’s a conundrum. But fitting more than 10tph Elizabeth line with 4tph freight is something that is definitely in the ‘very difficult’ category.

My understanding was that 4tph EL to T5 was at the expense of T4. Which feels right.

Would you then split 2 Hex trains to T4 instead? I don't think 2tph to T4 is sufficient.

 

[Olivine]

Would you then split 2 Hex trains to T4 instead? I don't think 2tph to T4 is sufficient.

One train per day is much than sufficient to T4. Nothing ever does go on down there, and when it does, it’s a suitcase city operation, or people being picked up by cabs. The only real benefit it provides is extra turning places for trains.

 

[cactustwirly]

Would you then split 2 Hex trains to T4 instead? I don't think 2tph to T4 is sufficient.

Only having 2tph HEx to the main Heathrow Terminal is not enough either...

 

[signed]

One train per day is much than sufficient to T4. Nothing ever does go on down there, and when it does, it’s a suitcase city operation, or people being picked up by cabs. The only real benefit it provides is extra turning places for trains.

Terminal 4 has all the airport property hotels though

 

[Topological]

One train per day is much than sufficient to T4. Nothing ever does go on down there, and when it does, it’s a suitcase city operation, or people being picked up by cabs. The only real benefit it provides is extra turning places for trains.

Terminal 4 is my usual destination at Heathrow, please do not cut it off too much.

Do Etihad still use 4? Certainly, I have flown Etihad from 4. KLM are at 4 and people use them for international connections. Air China and China Southern are also Terminal 4.

I appreciate T4 is not as good as many of the others, but it is always busy when I am there.

 

[cactustwirly]

Terminal 4 has all the airport property hotels though

They're dotted around though
A lot on the northern perimeter road, Hilton in Terminal 3 etc

 

[Bigbru]

One train per day is much than sufficient to T4. Nothing ever does go on down there, and when it does, it’s a suitcase city operation, or people being picked up by cabs. The only real benefit it provides is extra turning places for trains.

Not anymore. T4 is pretty busy even with 4tph

 

[Snow1964]

One train per day is much than sufficient to T4. Nothing ever does go on down there, and when it does, it’s a suitcase city operation, or people being picked up by cabs. The only real benefit it provides is extra turning places for trains.

T4 tends to have lots of long haul flights by International airlines, that tend to arrive in a group in the morning, so get few thousand passengers arriving within about 3 hours. It is then virtually empty for few hours, then late afternoon / evening the planes seem to depart.

So yes if you go to T4 lunchtime or mid afternoon, seems almost deserted.

However the rail timetable is more clockface all day, more to serve as reversal point, even though an hourly service with a 2car train would be overkill at Heathrow T4 from about 10am to 3pm

 

[Joe Paxton]

This sounds like the mad idea Railtrack had to run trains from Heathrow around the northern half of the circle line.

(post #180)

Wasn't this part of the wild notion that Railtrack might take over the sub-surface lines at the time of the Tube PPP?

(There were some bonkers ideas around then, such as a Sea Containers TOC completely rebuilding and relocating Clapham Junction station on a site to the north east!)

 

[JamesT]

If we're being speculative, how hard would it be to tunnel between T4 and T5 so services could call at both?

 

[Snow1964]

If we're being speculative, how hard would it be to tunnel between T4 and T5 so services could call at both?

The line to T4 approaches from the west and is more C shaped (when looking on a map) from T2,3 (rather than heading south from T2,3), so the overrun at T4 is facing London (completely opposite direction from T5)

However at one time there was a plan for a line from west or Staines, and provision was made to have an loop from T5 heading south east to join before T4, then back (continuing the overrun) as anti-clockwise loop to westbound at T2,3, where it can return to T5 via current T2,3 to T5 westbound. Loop would have been single track and in one direction

 

[cle]

It does also have the tube - which can also lead people to Central for Crossrail.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would you then split 2 Hex trains to T4 instead? I don't think 2tph to T4 is sufficient.

Well, T4 is planed to close when Heathrow add in the T2 extension and rebuild T3. So it becomes irrelevant then.

 

[Topological]

Well, T4 is planed to close when Heathrow add in the T2 extension and rebuild T3. So it becomes irrelevant then.

That was what I was reading to see if someone mentioned. IF the expansion goes ahead then there is no T4 to worry about.

However, until T4 closes, I do believe it merits the current service.

It is not just one block in the morning either. The China flight I use lands at 18:00 and takes off at 20:00 and there are another 2 or 3 (Beijing, Guangzhou and Wuhan on days that runs) with similar evening turnarounds. Those are well-loaded flights of people who tend to go for the Elizabeth Line.