The future of the buffet car?

[Bletchleyite]

Buffet, can't remember the last time I used one tbh. The food is expensive almost universally ropey, especially for vegetarians and like others have said I cannot be arsed packing up my laptop and associated gubbins every time I want a coffee. A trolley meets most people's needs far better.

I think you're right there. The thing you can't easily buy at the station and carry on, if you're a prolific hot drinks drinker, is enough tea and coffee for a journey of over an hour. Other than that M&S Simply Food does a better selection than any buffet ever will.

 

[broadgage]

I believe in the run up to Arriva getting the XC, there was a survey done with loaded questions such as "do you want at seat service?" answers were yes, so shop- gone!

A similar rigged survey was done by GWR.
The new DMUs were specified without buffets and THEN a survey was done to show that a buffet was no longer wanted. I think that makes it clear what answer was required from the survey.

 

[Journeyman]

A similar rigged survey was done by GWR.
The new DMUs were specified without buffets and THEN a survey was done to show that a buffet was no longer wanted. I think that makes it clear what answer was required from the survey.

From what I've heard, GWR wanted to keep buffets, but the 800s were specced without them by the DfT. VTEC kicked up a fuss and refused to take them without buffets, but GWR clearly backed down without much of a fight on that front.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From what I've heard, GWR wanted to keep buffets, but the 800s were specced without them by the DfT. VTEC kicked up a fuss and refused to take them without buffets, but GWR clearly backed down without much of a fight on that front.

It wouldn't be massively difficult to retrofit a modular microbuffet if they were *that* bothered.

 

[Western Lord]

I think there's a lot of misplaced nostalgia around buffet cars. Even in the supposed golden age of the 1950s, most long distance trains had no catering or at best a miniature buffet for cold food and hot drinks. A full buffet was a rare beast, a restaurant car pretty much confined to the likes of the Flying Scotsman or the Royal Scot.

I think you are rather wide of the mark there. Full restaurant cars were common on many trains into the 1970s. I recall travelling on a Euston-Bangor train in 1972 with full meal service (which I took advantage of).

 

[Journeyman]

It wouldn't be massively difficult to retrofit a modular microbuffet if they were *that* bothered.

I think they've just decided it's easier to play the hand they've been dealt, and make the best of it. It wouldn't be difficult to refit a counter, as you say, but the DfT have the final say on what happens, and the contracts are very prescriptive.

 

[Journeyman]

I think you are rather wide of the mark there. Full restaurant cars were common on many trains into the 1970s. I recall travelling on a Euston-Bangor train in 1972 with full meal service (which I took advantage of).

Was the food any good?

 

[chubs]

It *is* true, but you have to pick the things that microwave well - curries, chillies, spag bol, other pasta dishes, paella etc and *not* anything involving bread (so the classic BR gristleburger and bacon rolls are out).

It's passable, whether it's good or not depends totally on your standards when it comes to food.

You can clearly tell it's microwaved when eating it, and for me it is absolute garbage and a waste of money.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I had a particularly nice steak on an IC EC service from Edinburgh to Newark in about 1990 and the IC EC breakfasts were the stuff of legend (and taken full advantage of by BR staff)

 

[Western Lord]

Was the food any good?

The food was good, three courses , silver service and this was just lunch! But as has been pointed out upthread, few people would sit down to such a lunch today.

 

[Indigo Soup]

The thing you can't easily buy at the station and carry on, if you're a prolific hot drinks drinker, is enough tea and coffee for a journey of over an hour.

The factor that's always annoyed be is asking for tea from the trolley and being told 'Sorry, there's no hot water left. Would you like a coffee instead?'

Full restaurant cars were common on many trains into the 1970s.

They were present on more routes than now, but a look at the passenger train formations shows that many of the trains on those routes - even Anglo-Scottish expresses - had only a miniature buffet or nothing at all.

There seems to have been a concentration of catering vehicles on the core intercity routes in the 1970s and 1980s, presumably to try and drum up custom on them against falling passenger numbers, whilst reducing costs on the less important routes.

 

[DarloRich]

Yeah - the biggest problems with trollies, certainly the ones on ScotRail that I use quite often, is that they stock too many things, and don't have enough of the important items. I've been on Inverness to Edinburgh trains, a journey that takes well over three hours, and the trolley has run out of sandwiches within ten minutes of leaving Inverness, before it's halfway down the first coach.

It could be much improved by having a more limited range, with a decent amount of the popular items.

Agreed but tbh I am not sure I would sell sandwiches unless there was a good profit on them as they take up lots of space and need to be cooled.

The factor that's always annoyed be is asking for tea from the trolley and being told 'Sorry, there's no hot water left. Would you like a coffee instead?'

how do you make coffee without water?

 

[Bletchleyite]

how do you make coffee without water?

Tea requires boiling water otherwise it's vile. Coffee can be made acceptably with much cooler water, particularly instant. Indeed, if you put actually boiling water on ground coffee you'll scald it.

 

[Journeyman]

Agreed but tbh I am not sure I would sell sandwiches unless there was a good profit on them as they take up lots of space and need to be cooled.

True, that's a little bit tricky, but after getting caught out by none being available a couple of times, I stocked up on food before boarding. I suppose there's a cycle there somewhere...

 

[Bletchleyite]

One issue with trolleys is that their provision tends to be sporadic. Why this is I have no idea, as it's not harder to schedule a person with a trolley than it is to schedule a person to staff a buffet counter.

If you ensure that...
1. If a trolley is to be provided, it is marked in the timetable and on the PIS
2. When it is marked on the timetable and on the PIS, a trolley is always provided except for emergencies, i.e. have enough spare staff
3. If one isn't going to be provided, it is always on the PIS that it is not provided
4. When on board, the trolley staff can make announcements saying where they are and when they'll be through
5. Possibly menus can be placed on the tables etc so people know what they can have

... then trolleys will have the credibility of a buffet counter. But for some reason these are rarely true.

 

[Mike Machin]

I think you are rather wide of the mark there. Full restaurant cars were common on many trains into the 1970s. I recall travelling on a Euston-Bangor train in 1972 with full meal service (which I took advantage of).

Throughout the 1970s, and I think onto the 1980s, services on my regular route between Waterloo and Bournemouth conveyed full catering services. The 4-REP units each contained a buffet car with kitchen facilities, and as an absolute minimum a full range of hot and cold snacks, breakfast and various all-day grill meals, together with a comprehensive selection of hot and cold drinks were available on all fast and most semi-fast services. The bar was able to serve a wide range of alcoholic beverages, and was always popular. Many services also included a full restaurant service, with one half of the adjoining motor second being fitted with tables, each covered with a crisp white linen table cloth, silver service cutlery and the hard-backed menu propped up by the window. I often remember the chef in his white chef's hat, leaning out of the window taking a quick breath of fresh air when the fast trains stopped briefly at Southampton! Now it's just soggy sarnies and very expensive Pringles!

 

[Journeyman]

One issue with trolleys is that their provision tends to be sporadic. Why this is I have no idea, as it's not harder to schedule a person with a trolley than it is to schedule a person to staff a buffet counter.

If you ensure that...
1. If a trolley is to be provided, it is marked in the timetable and on the PIS
2. When it is marked on the timetable and on the PIS, a trolley is always provided except for emergencies, i.e. have enough spare staff
3. If one isn't going to be provided, it is always on the PIS that it is not provided
4. When on board, the trolley staff can make announcements saying where they are and when they'll be through
5. Possibly menus can be placed on the tables etc so people know what they can have

... then trolleys will have the credibility of a buffet counter. But for some reason these are rarely true.

The biggest problem is that the people in charge of the trolleys are often very inconsistent. Sometimes you'll get an enthusiastic, cheerful steward who will make several runs up and down the train, and make an effort to be helpful and proactive in selling stuff. Other times, you'll find the steward hiding in the vestibule staring at their phone, desperately trying to avoid drumming up any trade.

 

[UP13]

how do you make coffee without water?

Urn with black coffee already made. Urn with just hot water for tea and add tea bag to cup.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest problem is that the people in charge of the trolleys are often very inconsistent. Sometimes you'll get an enthusiastic, cheerful steward who will make several runs up and down the train, and make an effort to be helpful and proactive in selling stuff. Other times, you'll find the steward hiding in the vestibule staring at their phone, desperately trying to avoid drumming up any trade.

Part of that is probably that they aren't respected as proper railway staff, but are instead seen as "contractor scum" and paid minimum wage.

 

[Journeyman]

Part of that is probably that they aren't respected as proper railway staff, but are instead seen as "contractor scum" and paid minimum wage.

True. I confess I wouldn't be particularly enthusiastic myself if that was my job.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Urn with black coffee already made. Urn with just hot water for tea and add tea bag to cup.

Exactly - the possibility of carrying two urns of hot water and some instant coffee packs doesn't seem to be the done thing for some catering providers. It would make sub-par coffee, but I hardly think that it's brilliant when it's been in an urn for several hours anyway.

 

[route101]

Last two times ive been on XC HST the buffet was open , its not a counter , just a door and last time they announced the closure of it .

Looked at selection in VWTC shop on pendo , was woeful , new sandwich supplier it seems .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly - the possibility of carrying two urns of hot water and some instant coffee packs doesn't seem to be the done thing for some catering providers. It would make sub-par coffee, but I hardly think that it's brilliant when it's been in an urn for several hours anyway.

TBH I think filter coffee works best from urns, instant is not as good. Mind you those filter cups used by TPE and Ryanair are pretty good.

 

[edwin_m]

I think a lot of people will be happy to roll up at Birmingham New Street or King's Cross an hour or so early and have a decent quality meal/snack/drink before boarding the train.

Especialy when people have Advance tickets, arrive well before to avoid an eye-watering fare if they miss their booked train, and have virtually nowhere to sit down in the station unless they pay for something to eat.

 

[Journeyman]

Especialy when people have Advance tickets, arrive well before to avoid an eye-watering fare if they miss their booked train, and have virtually nowhere to sit down in the station unless they pay for something to eat.

That's a good description of me.

 

[doa46231]

I think there's a lot of misplaced nostalgia around buffet cars. Even in the supposed golden age of the 1950s, most long distance trains had no catering or at best a miniature buffet for cold food and hot drinks. A full buffet was a rare beast, a restaurant car pretty much confined to the likes of the Flying Scotsman or the Royal Scot.

Why do people write posts that are not only wrong but easy to prove are wrong.
I have a 1953 London Midland timetable.
Table 50:-
08.00 Manchester and Liverpool Restaurant car,
08.30 Liverpool Restaurant Car,
08.50 Birmingham and Wolverhampton Restaurant Car
09.05 Birmingham and Wolverhampton Restaurant Car

And so on! "The Comet" Manchester RC
"The Royal Scot" Glasgow and Perth RC
Every long distance train had a Restaurant car throughout the day Including Saturdays!

I doubt other regions of BR were any different.

Jumping to 1993 Table 65 Restaurants on the 06.20, 07.10, 07.25, 07.45 etc etc

I realise conditions have changed radically since those times although it is interesting that restaurants are still considered an asset in First Class!

But it doesn't help to misrepresent what has gone before.

 

[Be3G]

I like – and use – train buffets. Why? Two reasons, principally:

1. For reasons of necessity I tend to travel on walk-up tickets, which gives me the flexibility to not worry about adding lots of padding to the beginning of my journey to avoid missing a particular train; I might therefore arrive at a station with just a few minutes to spare and decide I'd rather pay a little bit more for food/drink from the buffet than miss that train whilst I go searching for something in/near the station.

2. Because I want hot food, which you can't just buy from the station to take away unless you plan on eating it immediately. For example, GWR used to offer those Quaker Oats instant porridge pots in their buffets – sure, they were nothing like a hearty and properly cooked bowl of the real stuff, but they provided an acceptable alternative in a pinch. I also once had a fairly tasty all-day-breakfast-type roll on a Grand Central train once. And oh the GWR Travelling Chef… aside from the queues for standard class passengers, that was perfect and I always made use of it when I could.

 

[Indigo Soup]

But it doesn't help to misrepresent what has gone before.

In which case I retract my statement; I think I must have misread some of the trains which had an RMB in the middle of the Third Class section and a restaurant as only having an RMB.

Of course, that was when virtually every express had 12 or more coaches (granted I don't know off-hand about the Western Region) with a locomotive on the front, whilst we're now being told that we're lucky to get a nine-car multiple unit. Nothing wrong with MUs per se, but it does get you an extra vehicle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In which case I retract my statement; I think I must have misread some of the trains which had an RMB in the middle of the Third Class section and a restaurant as only having an RMB.

Of course, that was when virtually every express had 12 or more coaches (granted I don't know off-hand about the Western Region) with a locomotive on the front, whilst we're now being told that we're lucky to get a nine-car multiple unit. Nothing wrong with MUs per se, but it does get you an extra vehicle.

To be fair, 12 Mk1 coaches (20m each) are 240m long, whereas 9 Class 800 coaches (26m each) are 234m long - not a lot of difference!

 

[dk1]

Buffet, can't remember the last time I used one tbh. The food is expensive almost universally ropey, especially for vegetarians and like others have said I cannot be arsed packing up my laptop and associated gubbins every time I want a coffee. A trolley meets most people's needs far better.



I can get a great range of vegan and vegetarian sandwiches from the nearby Tesco for a fraction of what I'd be charged for a limp ploughman's sandwich from the buffet.

Wheras it is extremely rare that I don't visit the buffet car or on-board shop. Occasionaly I buy something before I board if its with a TOC that has poor or inconsistent choice. On the whole I find most that have a buffet counter ok but VWC win hands down.