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The 'fraud letters' process

Haywain

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If this is becoming standard Northern behaviour (I note a few threads on it here) then I’m deeply uncomfortable with it. Convictions on these charges can have huge impacts on people’s life, ability to work etc. and they shouldn’t be writing to people on the off chance that they might have done something wrong unless they have real suspicions. I know I’d be mortified and really worried if I’d got the emails that the OP has
This is something that a number of other train companies, such as Greater Anglia, have been doing for some time and I would expect that they can demonstrate that it is an effective part of the toolbox to deal with fare evasion. The most likely outcomes, from a train company perspective, are that the person receiving the letter or email modifies their behaviour and stops whatever it is they have been doing, or that they respond and end up paying an amount to avoid the matter going to court. Both of these are good for the train operator. The chances of such a case proceeding to court are small because there is insufficient evidence for a prosecution to start with and even when people are caught in the act we know that train companies are likely to agree to settle with those who engage with the process.

In almost every case we have seen on the forum there has been good reason for the train company to have suspicions, but inevitably a very small number of people may get caught up in this even though they have done nothing wrong but that will be the case with any revenue protection exercise (and happens elsewhere - not everyone arrested by the police has committed an offence).
 
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Tetchytyke

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I'd largely repeat what I said in the original thread:
I sometimes sit on the other side of the table in my day job. I have the same qualification in investigative practice that the TOC senior prosecution bods have. I’m very definitely not a lawyer but I’m also not quite as green as I am cabbage-looking.

Responding to the correspondence doesn’t make it go away. Answers beget more questions. The TOC don’t have proof, they have a hypothesis. If you ignore them they’re effectively shouting into the abyss. They’ll move on to softer targets.

We’ve seen how this works in this case. The emails have gone from fairly generic questions about journeys to the prosecution team now sending the OP a spreadsheet and demanding that they justify line-by-line every ticket that they have ever bought. Every time the OP has answered a question they’ve had a further question back to them. This makes sense from an investigative point of view- they’re trying to catch the OP in a lie.

Look at the first letter. It doesn’t even say what journeys they find suspicious or why, just that they find some suspicious, with a veiled threat about how it might look bad in court later if they don’t reply.

The last bit is actually nonsense: the PACE caution is “it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court.” I’ve bolded the important bit. If they don’t ask the specifics then they can’t use a non-response against you later. The training for the qualification I hold makes this very clear, and highlights that best practice to give the interviewee enough information in advance for them to know what they’re being asked about. It is interesting that the TOCs don’t follow this advice with their initial correspondence.

My view has long been that the TOC prosecution/fraud teams should be stating in their initial correspondence what they think the issue is. Very few do. I don’t have much time for investigators ignoring best practice. The fact they ignore best practice so brazenly tells me all I need to know.

I can understand why, though. The use of vague and open questioning makes some sense. It is human nature to attempt to ‘fill in the blanks,’ and the result of that is that people either deliberately or inadvertently admit something, or they tell an untruth which they then can’t walk back from. But it’s simply not fair and that- more than anything- demonstrates that the TOC staff are not impartial investigators and that they are only acting in the best interests of the TOC. And that, in turn, demonstrates that there is rarely, if ever, any advantage in engaging.

At the risk of re-hashing an old argument, I simply don't see how the TOCs actually have the legal right under the Data Protection Act to access this information unless they stop someone for suspected fare evasion.

I presume that they use legitimate interest as their basis for processing this data (although they could argue 'prevention of crime' but that's a bit more controversial), but in order to process under that basis it has to be proportionate and balanced. I don't see how a massive data trawl can be seen as either proportionate or balanced between the legitimate interests of the retailer and the operator and the data protection rights of the customer.

Whilst tickets between a common short-faring station pair may be used illegitimately, and for some station pairs it's a safe bet that most of them will be used illegitimately, I don't see how it could be seen as proportionate to assume that all tickets bought between common short-faring station pair are illegitimate. If I tried to justify a similar massive data trawl in my day job my Data Protection Officer would laugh at me.

Sadly I don't think the people in receipt of these emails will be equipped to report them to the Information Commissioner and, even more sadly, I don't think that the Information Commissioner would have the appetite to find against the TOCs.

I also really don't like the generic emails they send to people. When I got my investigation qualification I was taught that it is best practice to give the interviewee enough information to know what they are being accused of. The TOC staff have the same qualification, taught by the same company. I wouldn't expect a TOC to tell the recipient everything, of course not. But the opening email should give some idea of what they're being accused of: we see you're buying a lot of tickets between Wembley Stadium and Marylebone, would you like to tell us why? It might actually make a few more people bite, to be quite honest: we can see what you're up to is a powerful message, far more powerful than some generic nonsense about fraud.
 

MarlowDonkey

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I don't see how a massive data trawl can be seen as either proportionate or balanced between the legitimate interests of the retailer and the operator and the data protection rights of the customer.
We know that ticket retailers don't have details of railcards that they didn't sell and don't even appear to retain them when they did. How then can TOCs justify pointing to tickets bought with railcard discounts as potentially fraudulent when the journeys are so far in the past that the traveller would not be expected to retain records?
 

The exile

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We know that ticket retailers don't have details of railcards that they didn't sell and don't even appear to retain them when they did. How then can TOCs justify pointing to tickets bought with railcard discounts as potentially fraudulent when the journeys are so far in the past that the traveller would not be expected to retain records?
Well, there are circumstances (admittedly unlikely ones) where it would be pretty obvious that something fishy was going on. Standard pattern of buying discounted return ticket at same time of same day each week for years suddenly switching from 26-30 railcard to senior railcard, for example. Yes, there might be a legitimate explanation but in the same way as it might snow in the next hour or so in London…
 

MarlowDonkey

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Well, there are circumstances (admittedly unlikely ones) where it would be pretty obvious that something fishy was going on. Standard pattern of buying discounted return ticket at same time of same day each week for years suddenly switching from 26-30 railcard to senior railcard, for example.
Can they prosecute or threaten to prosecute based on that evidence alone though? Doesn't there have to have been a ticket inspection with the wrong railcard shown?
 

The exile

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Can they prosecute or threaten to prosecute based on that evidence alone though? Doesn't there have to have been a ticket inspection with the wrong railcard shown?
I should imagine that evidence alone would not be sufficient, but won’t be difficult to put a revenue block in to get that proof if travel is as regular as my example. If the only senior railcard holder is eligible, then they would have no leg to stand on, but if not…. Effectively you re getting a warning shot across the bows, which is in the “offender’s” best interest. (If they are an offender that is).
 

MarlowDonkey

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I should imagine that evidence alone would not be sufficient, but won’t be difficult to put a revenue block in to get that proof if travel is as regular as my example.
I suppose it isn't really known how often they do this and how often they pick up misuse of Railcards by chance.

But what's the probability of someone being able to travel with a discounted ticket but incorrect or no Railcard for several years or several hundred journeys without being checked? The Fraud emails sometimes seem to suggest this is likely. So someone gets picked up for not renewing a railcard, perhaps only days late and then gets accused of not having a Railcard for several years.
 

styles

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I'd largely repeat what I said in the original thread:


At the risk of re-hashing an old argument, I simply don't see how the TOCs actually have the legal right under the Data Protection Act to access this information unless they stop someone for suspected fare evasion.

I presume that they use legitimate interest as their basis for processing this data (although they could argue 'prevention of crime' but that's a bit more controversial), but in order to process under that basis it has to be proportionate and balanced. I don't see how a massive data trawl can be seen as either proportionate or balanced between the legitimate interests of the retailer and the operator and the data protection rights of the customer.

Whilst tickets between a common short-faring station pair may be used illegitimately, and for some station pairs it's a safe bet that most of them will be used illegitimately, I don't see how it could be seen as proportionate to assume that all tickets bought between common short-faring station pair are illegitimate. If I tried to justify a similar massive data trawl in my day job my Data Protection Officer would laugh at me.

Sadly I don't think the people in receipt of these emails will be equipped to report them to the Information Commissioner and, even more sadly, I don't think that the Information Commissioner would have the appetite to find against the TOCs.

I also really don't like the generic emails they send to people. When I got my investigation qualification I was taught that it is best practice to give the interviewee enough information to know what they are being accused of. The TOC staff have the same qualification, taught by the same company. I wouldn't expect a TOC to tell the recipient everything, of course not. But the opening email should give some idea of what they're being accused of: we see you're buying a lot of tickets between Wembley Stadium and Marylebone, would you like to tell us why? It might actually make a few more people bite, to be quite honest: we can see what you're up to is a powerful message, far more powerful than some generic nonsense about fraud.
Agree with pretty much all of this.

I also think it should be more standardised. That TfL jump to prosecution in so many more cases than other operators in England is not really on. If there is to be an investigations unit I don't particularly see why it can't be a centralised provision, who can be held more to account for the wording of their letters, compliance with DPA/GDPR, etc.
 

John R

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Agree with pretty much all of this.

I also think it should be more standardised. That TfL jump to prosecution in so many more cases than other operators in England is not really on. If there is to be an investigations unit I don't particularly see why it can't be a centralised provision, who can be held more to account for the wording of their letters, compliance with DPA/GDPR, etc.
Not sure I agree with this. TfL is expected to wash its face financially by the government , and should be perfectly entitled to take a more robust approach if it wishes, (provided it remains lawful of course) if it thinks that is the more effective way to handle fare evasion.
 

MrJeeves

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Well, there are circumstances (admittedly unlikely ones) where it would be pretty obvious that something fishy was going on. Standard pattern of buying discounted return ticket at same time of same day each week for years suddenly switching from 26-30 railcard to senior railcard, for example. Yes, there might be a legitimate explanation but in the same way as it might snow in the next hour or so in London…
I have seen booking histories where people go from adult, to 16-25, to 16-17 over the course of 3+ years...

Some people do not help themselves in making their potential fraud painfully obvious, and deserve an upfront and informational email about their purchasing history.

I don't think it's a justification to proactively data-share with a TOC so they can trawl through it all and get them to evidence every rail booking they've ever made or pay a huge civil settlement, particularly when you cannot actually prove any offence was committed.
 

Egg Centric

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Some people do not help themselves in making their potential fraud painfully obvious, and deserve an upfront and informational email about their purchasing history.

Any reason TrainSplit can't do this (or maybe it does - from previous threads I think Trainline do or is that just about cancellation volume ie when it directly affects them)?
 

mrmartin

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I agree that I think this approach is going to end in tears for the TOCs. It has quite a few parallels to the post office story.

1) New IT system gets introduced/becomes available
2) Revenue/prosecutions team believes that it allows them to finally clamp down on fraud
3) IT system has issues, but because there is such a belief in widespread fraud issues are overlooked
4) All blows up and huge compensation is due

While for TOCs I'm not suggesting Trainline/whoever data is incorrect in the same way as the post office did, the TOCs seem to be at danger of a very overzealous interpretation here.

They now seem to be classing any regular short fare journeys as evidence of potential fraud, and equally Railcards are looked at the same.

I'm sure that it probabaly started with TOCs getting data from Trainline when potential fare evaders were found and thought it was great they were banged to rights with a huge list of journeys. Over time they/Trainline realised they could do it through other way round and look at those patterns and proactively investigated them.

I'm also very unsure of the data protection aspects of this. I think it's getting very murky when you don't have any genuine evidence of fare evasion (ie being caught without a ticket).
 

furlong

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As I've said many times, this is tackling the problem from the wrong end. The tickets should never have been sold in the first place! Dodgy-looking sales should show reminders of the relevant T&Cs and require additional confirmation from the purchaser that they are not doing the wrong thing identified and then e-tickets should be flagged to require manual inspection so they will not open any automated ticket gates and have the reason for suspicion flagged, which can be cleared if a manual inspection confirms it's not an issue and doesn't need checking again (or flagging up on a similar future sale to the same individual).

A modern version of "restrictions advised" that displays whatever was advised directly on the digital ticket so the passenger cannot claim ignorance and can see that it will be checked by any inspector.

There are just so many straightforward technical ways to discourage and prevent fraud it seems bizarre that there's still so much focus on dealing with it after-the-fact by throwing around unsubstantiated accusations! Focus on mandatory interventions in the retail systems and the ticket inspections - all linked to both real time and historic analysis.

In MrJeeves' example, it absolutely should be requesting the railcard number before completing the sale, validating it if possible, and printing it on the ticket saying that a valid railcard must be shown and for that reason it will not open automatic gates. Only for suspicious cases of course, not for everyone, and once the passenger's ticket has had a manual inspection flagging that the railcard was confirmed, not necessary for future similar purchases.
 

talldave

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I suppose it isn't really known how often they do this and how often they pick up misuse of Railcards by chance.

But what's the probability of someone being able to travel with a discounted ticket but incorrect or no Railcard for several years or several hundred journeys without being checked? The Fraud emails sometimes seem to suggest this is likely. So someone gets picked up for not renewing a railcard, perhaps only days late and then gets accused of not having a Railcard for several years.
I've been doing a regular commute with a Railcard for just over a year and have only been asked for my Railcard once during one of a handful of on-train inspections.

My Railcard discounted e-ticket regularly fails to open the barrier but I've never been asked to show it. The barriers are just opened for me.
 

Swedenorer

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I don't think it's a justification to proactively data-share with a TOC so they can trawl through it all and get them to evidence every rail booking they've ever made or pay a huge civil settlement, particularly when you cannot actually prove any offence was committed.
Neither do I think any TOC would let a case based entirely on this get anywhere near a court. Unless they were completely stupid. My experience by the way matches the previous post - though with paper tickets - even when barriers are programmed to reject the Senior ticket showing the ticket and not the railcard in 99% if cases gets one through.
 

Tetchytyke

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That TfL jump to prosecution in so many more cases than other operators in England is not really on.
I actually think TfL have a better attitude in terms of revenue protection and prosecution. For bog-standard issues they give out a Penalty Fare. For more serious matters, misuse of Freedom Pass etc, they go straight to prosecution.

In my opinion the issues come because the TOCs have a financial interest in not issuing Penalty Fares and, instead, threatening prosecution. If they don't issue a Penalty Fare then none of the administrative headache and costs of the appeals process applies, and they can ask for more than £100 in "admin costs." They can ask for what they want as a settlement and, in most cases, the person has a choice of paying up or being prosecuted.

The increase in the Penalty Fare to £100 knocked the 'penalty fake' nonsense on its head for a bit, but it seems to be gradually creeping back in.

TfL only prosecute stuff which deserves to be prosecuted.
 

AlterEgo

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Agree with pretty much all of this.

I also think it should be more standardised. That TfL jump to prosecution in so many more cases than other operators in England is not really on. If there is to be an investigations unit I don't particularly see why it can't be a centralised provision, who can be held more to account for the wording of their letters, compliance with DPA/GDPR, etc.
Frankly the TfL approach is much better. They prosecute flagrant abuse which otherwise is just plain fraud. So many people rip off Freedom passes, staff passes, child Oysters etc. No, they can all get prosecuted, no better than shoplifters.
 

MarlowDonkey

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No, they can all get prosecuted, no better than shoplifters.
Shoplifting is an interesting comparison. Shops don't have private prosecution powers so I believe it the case that they and the Police don't pursue small scale offending.

Contrast this with TOCs who on occasion will threaten prosecution for fare evasion of a value equivalent to a small bag of groceries.
 

AlterEgo

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Shoplifting is an interesting comparison. Shops don't have private prosecution powers
Yes they do, anyone can bring a private prosecution.

so I believe it the case that they and the Police don't pursue small scale offending.
Not true.




Contrast this with TOCs who on occasion will threaten prosecution for fare evasion of a value equivalent to a small bag of groceries.
We are talking about TfL here, where people are routinely defrauding the system milking hundreds of pounds from it. FWIW I am very opposed to one-off errors like expired railcards getting prosecuted by Northern, but TfL prosecute people who have been blatantly committing fare evasion, deliberately. That is fine by me.
 

LondonExile

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Shoplifting is an interesting comparison. Shops don't have private prosecution powers so I believe it the case that they and the Police don't pursue small scale offending.

Contrast this with TOCs who on occasion will threaten prosecution for fare evasion of a value equivalent to a small bag of groceries.

Yes shops do have the power to prosecute privately, as does anyone, for most crimes.

Private prosecutions being permitted (in England and Wales at least) is the default position. Some crimes require the consent of the DPP (i.e. head of the CPS) before they can be prosecuted, but these are the exception.


Retailers are also starting to use private prosecutions - there are now companies specialising in taking them out on behalf of retailers:

 

The exile

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They don't have their own bye laws though. Unlike fare evasion would they have to prove intent to make a prosecution stick?
For anything of any size and weight (or indeed anything more than a single item) intent is pretty obvious once the perpetrator has reached the exit door. Harder to prove that the small valuable object didn’t just slip into a shopping bag, of course.
 

saismee

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I presume that they use legitimate interest as their basis for processing this data (although they could argue 'prevention of crime' but that's a bit more controversial), but in order to process under that basis it has to be proportionate and balanced. I don't see how a massive data trawl can be seen as either proportionate or balanced between the legitimate interests of the retailer and the operator and the data protection rights of the customer.
I think the data could (and should) be used to catch the perpetrators in the act, but not to threaten them without any evidence. Then there's no doubt that the data is being used for "prevention of crime" and there's no risk of innocent people being threatened and harassed because they choose to actually pay for the service.

Maybe if an account has been flagged for strange railcard discounts (changing from 16-25 to 16-17, for example), it could flag up on an inspector's/guard's device to double-check the railcard to confirm and collect more data. Much quicker for innocent passengers to get cleared, but also gathers more intelligence on fraud.
 

Haywain

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I believe it the case that they and the Police don't pursue small scale offending.
Definitely not true. A recent case on a local radio station of someone who had been caught leaving a store with something they hadn't paid for (they claimed it was uninteional) and had been banned from all of the stores in the same chain and was being pursued for the costs incurred by the store.
 

AlterEgo

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Is there any data on that?
Just what we see here. A large number of people in London are on visas anyway, probably about a fifth of the population. 40% of London residents were born overseas.
 

Tetchytyke

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Shoplifting is an interesting comparison. Shops don't have private prosecution powers so I believe it the case that they and the Police don't pursue small scale offending.

Contrast this with TOCs who on occasion will threaten prosecution for fare evasion of a value equivalent to a small bag of groceries.
As others have said, shops can bring private prosecutions.

Retailers were also bringing civil claims against shoplifters for inflated amounts long before the railways cottoned on to it as a tactic. Retailers would typically seek to recover all their security costs from shoplifters as well as hefty administration charges. They were successful for a long time, too, until pressure from Citizens Advice and others eventually meant that the civil Courts started doing their job and started disallowing claims for fixed or apportioned costs not directly related to the shoplifting.

They don't have their own bye laws though. Unlike fare evasion would they have to prove intent to make a prosecution stick?
True, and this is what enables some of the more predatory behaviour by TOCs. They have that extra threat in their back pocket- they don't need to prove that the person intended to not pay their fare, they just need to prove that the person didn't pay their fare. A mistake completes the offence just as much as deliberate fare evasion does.

That said, many of the issues we see on this forum would- if the TOCs actually put boots on the ground to catch people rather than firing off emails based on a spreadsheet- meet the evidential threshold for theft and/or fraud anyway. Deliberately selecting a railcard discount when you don't hold the railcard is fraud. Short faring is making off without payment.
 
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I've been doing a regular commute with a Railcard for just over a year and have only been asked for my Railcard once during one of a handful of on-train inspections.

My Railcard discounted e-ticket regularly fails to open the barrier but I've never been asked to show it. The barriers are just opened for me.
You are lucky. Until this year I could not pass through barriers at Waterloo without showing my Network railcard. I found it very irritating.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

For anything of any size and weight (or indeed anything more than a single item) intent is pretty obvious once the perpetrator has reached the exit door.
I disagree. I have an habit of not taking a basket if I plan to get only a couple of items. Then I see something at an attractive price, grab it, and go to get a basket which are typically outside :oops:
 

Gaelan

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Just what we see here. A large number of people in London are on visas anyway, probably about a fifth of the population. 40% of London residents were born overseas.
And you're claiming we're disproportionately likely to commit petty crimes?
 

saismee

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And you're claiming we're disproportionately likely to commit petty crimes?
Not to argue for @AlterEgo, but I think he was pointing out that everyone seems to do it rather than that immigrants are more likely to do it than people born in the UK. It didn't sound great in his original message though.
 

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