The EU "Deal" - poll!

[Ianno87]

We're talking law.
Your argument is that the vote cannot be reversed because we were told it was a 'once in a generation' choice. There is no legal basis why the vote cannot be reversed or not implemented.

Some politicians also said there'd be £350m a week for the NHS too...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Some politicians also said there'd be £350m a week for the NHS too...

and others told us that if we voted to leave then the economy would implode never to recover again the VERY NEXT DAY! come on... if you're gonna call out the "lies" of the leave campaign then acknowledge that the remain camp had just as tenuous grasp of the concept of "truth" as vote leave did!

 

[Howardh]

Looking at the scores on the doors as it stands now, 6.1% of us accept the present deal, a massive majority against it.

Yet it looks like we will be lumbered with it. How does Parliament justify that? Surely if so few want it, it's not in their interest to dump it on us?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Looking at the scores on the doors as it stands now, 6.1% of us accept the present deal, a massive majority against it.

Yet it looks like we will be lumbered with it. How does Parliament justify that? Surely if so few want it, it's not in their interest to dump it on us?

it'd be more interesting to find out what those who are voting stay in the EU would do if that option is taken away? would it be a case of {to quote Noel Edmonds} Deal or No Deal?

 

[EM2]

If the choice were binary, I'd have to take the deal, no matter how unpalatable it may be.

 

[Howardh]

it'd be more interesting to find out what those who are voting stay in the EU would do if that option is taken away? would it be a case of {to quote Noel Edmonds} Deal or No Deal?

I'd risk voting for no-deal if it meant the country faces such a chaotic situation no government would ever take us there; and they would then be pleading with us to return to the EU safe haven.
But if the deal means that the EU anti-tax avoidence directive still applies so there's no hiding place for the MP's who have something to hide....that might get my vote.

 

[Ken H]

and others told us that if we voted to leave then the economy would implode never to recover again the VERY NEXT DAY! come on... if you're gonna call out the "lies" of the leave campaign then acknowledge that the remain camp had just as tenuous grasp of the concept of "truth" as vote leave did!

its a self selecting sample taken from a small subsection of the UK population.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Have you forgotten the blockades over fuel prices during Blairs government?

Nope, not forgotten them. A rather large bunch of selfish idiots who apparently had no concept of the damage the pollution and congestion their vehicles produced was doing both to the environment and to other people's lives. Set up blockades and generally tried to stop other people going about their business because they wanted to be able to keep freely polluting the air we all breathe and not have to pay as much for doing so.

I have no idea why you'd bring that up or what it has to do with the EU debate though.

 

[EM2]

no legal basis? ever heard of the legal concept of a verbal contract?

And which UK law came on to the statute as a verbal contract?
Again, there is nothing in the law of the UK that gives a timeframe within which a decision cannot be reversed.

 

[yorksrob]

I say lets go for it. Looks like a decent compromise to me.

 

[Ianno87]

and others told us that if we voted to leave then the economy would implode never to recover again the VERY NEXT DAY! come on... if you're gonna call out the "lies" of the leave campaign then acknowledge that the remain camp had just as tenuous grasp of the concept of "truth" as vote leave did!

Leave campaign promised benefits it couldn't deliver. Particularly ones written on sides of buses.

Remain campaign merely highlighting risks. Truth is the econony ain't exactly been high flying since the referendum, let's face it.

 

[furnessvale]

Leave campaign promised benefits it couldn't deliver. Particularly ones written on sides of buses.

Remain campaign merely highlighting risks. Truth is the econony ain't exactly been high flying since the referendum, let's face it.

I don;t recall them highlighting the "risk" that there would be calls for an EU army to be formed, even before we have left. That the leader of the EU parliament would continue calling for more transfer of sovereignty to his cronies, that there would be calls for ALL EU countries to join the Euro, that there would be calls for a single EU foreign minister.............etc.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Leave campaign promised benefits it couldn't deliver. Particularly ones written on sides of buses.

Remain campaign merely highlighting risks. Truth is the econony ain't exactly been high flying since the referendum, let's face it.

but did it implode never to recover again the very next day? No it didn't... a Remainer lie designed to frighten the electorate into voting to remain.

Truth is the economy doesn't seem to be doing any better or worse than it was before... so the pound dropped in value... so what? the same economists that predicted the crash of our economy are exactly the same ones who continually tell us that a strong pound is bad for exports..

so... hands up all those remainers who want to keep their cake AND eat it?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I don;t recall them highlighting the "risk" that there would be calls for an EU army to be formed, even before we have left. That the leader of the EU parliament would continue calling for more transfer of sovereignty to his cronies, that there would be calls for ALL EU countries to join the Euro, that there would be calls for a single EU foreign minister.............etc.

or that Angela Merkel would open the floodgates to "refugees"...

Of course the one risk that the Remain campaign forgot to mention was that the vote might be pointless because if we vote to leave the EU will not let us leave.... as proved by the "deal" which will leave us tied even closer to Europe.... AND robs us of the right to break free from it's shackles... come on remainers... do you think the EU will EVER agree to let us out of the "backstop"... if you do then you are exactly what you accuse the leavers of being....NAIVE

 

[EM2]

Of course the one risk that the Remain campaign forgot to mention was that the vote might be pointless because if we vote to leave the EU will not let us leave...

Why would Remain voters care if we don't leave? They never wanted to in the first place!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Why would Remain voters care if we don't leave? They never wanted to in the first place!

another good remainer trait.... a leave supporter puts forward an argument... and then remainers pick a word or a sentence and then quote it out of context to try and make the argument look invalid.... would be nice if, for once, a Remainer would quote the whole post and then argue against the whole post... and answering the actual point made...

 

[HH]

Nigel is it you?

I think it's Basil.

 

[HH]

no legal basis? ever heard of the legal concept of a verbal contract?

Do you understand what a contract is?

I tell you what; go away and look it up and then you can try and tell me what the verbal contract was.

 

[EM2]

another good remainer trait.... a leave supporter puts forward an argument... and then remainers pick a word or a sentence and then quote it out of context to try and make the argument look invalid.... would be nice if, for once, a Remainer would quote the whole post and then argue against the whole post... and answering the actual point made...

Your point was whether the EU will 'let' us remove the backstop. Why wouldn't they? All the backstop does is keep the Irish border is frictionless as possible. Once that is achieved (i.e. the EU have what they want) it can be removed.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Do you understand what a contract is?

I tell you what; go away and look it up and then you can try and tell me what the verbal contract was.

yep I know what a contract is and also what constitutes a verbal contract. Cameron gave us the referendum vote with the promise that the government would act on the will of the people...THAT is a verbal contract... we vote... he acts...Contract...in the same way as if I lend you £100 and you promise to pay it back 7 days later... if you fail to pay the £100 back you are in breach of the contract made... of course trying to prove a verbal contract existed is nigh on impossible, which is why written contracts are the norm. However, in this instance the existence of the contract is evident seeing as though Cameron constantly repeated the terms on camera

 

[HH]

I don;t recall them highlighting the "risk" that there would be calls for an EU army to be formed, even before we have left. That the leader of the EU parliament would continue calling for more transfer of sovereignty to his cronies, that there would be calls for ALL EU countries to join the Euro, that there would be calls for a single EU foreign minister.............etc.

What risk is an EU army? I mean I get that you don't like it, but the only reason I have seen why so far started talking about the third reich, at which point I ceased to take it seriously. I honestly thought Godwin's Law had become outdated, but it appears not.

And hohoho, there's that word sovereignty again.

 

[HH]

yep I know what a contract is and also what constitutes a verbal contract. Cameron gave us the referendum vote with the promise that the government would act on the will of the people...THAT is a verbal contract.

Nope. You just proved that you do not understand what a contract is. Where is the consideration? Where is the valid offer and acceptance? How is it enforceable by Law?

He offered me nothing that I wanted. I didn't accept it. And it's unenforceable.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Your point was whether the EU will 'let' us remove the backstop. Why wouldn't they? All the backstop does is keep the Irish border is frictionless as possible. Once that is achieved (i.e. the EU have what they want) it can be removed.

why wouldn't they? are you REALLY that naive? the EU has been intransigent during the negotiations... they have put nothing on the table insisting that WE come up with the terms... and everytime we have they have said "No, Non, Nein". The EU negotiators are known, rampant, federalists. The EU has continued pronouncements on an "ever closer union" and unified foreign policy, a single EU army etc, and from the start we were told that Britain would be "punished" if we leave the EU.... the only deal that is on offer is one that will only allow us to fully leave the EU IF the EU says we can... please please PLEASE give me one bit of concrete proof that they will EVER agree to that?

 

[EM2]

why wouldn't they? are you REALLY that naive? the EU has been intransigent during the negotiations... they have put nothing on the table insisting that WE come up with the terms... and everytime we have they have said "No, Non, Nein".

Because we are the ones that want to leave, that's why we have to come up with terms. They've offered us all sorts of options, but the UK's ridiculous red lines put paid to all of them.
The backstop ensures that, as much as possible, trade across the Irish border continues as it is. If we agree a deal where that can continue, whether that's now, next year, in 2021, or 2055, the backstop is not needed.

...please please PLEASE give me one bit of concrete proof that they will EVER agree to that?

The fact that they accepted the UK's notification under Article 50, for a start. The UK didn't HAVE to negotiate anything, we could walk away after two years and go straight to WTO. If the EU weren't going to accept that, they wouldn't have accepted the notification.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

What risk is an EU army? I mean I get that you don't like it, but the only reason I have seen why so far started talking about the third reich, at which point I ceased to take it seriously. I honestly thought Godwin's Law had become outdated, but it appears not.

And hohoho, there's that word sovereignty again.

well, apart from the lessons of history showing us what happens if a disproportionately large army arises in Europe...

the problem I have with an EU army controlled by the EU bureaucrats is a simple one... as it stands the UK has control of it's army... that army can only go into combat on the say so of our Government who, I would hope, would only send our forces into battle if it is in our nation's best interests. However, if the only army we have is controlled by the EU then conceivably "our" forces could be ordered to fight a war that is AGAINST the interests of the UK... it goes back to that "s" word.... sovereignty... or to put it another way... self determination. Strange how so many remainers believe in the ideal of self determination.... until it comes to our country protecting it's right to self determination!

 

[GusB]

yep I know what a contract is and also what constitutes a verbal contract. Cameron gave us the referendum vote with the promise that the government would act on the will of the people...THAT is a verbal contract... we vote... he acts...Contract...in the same way as if I lend you £100 and you promise to pay it back 7 days later... if you fail to pay the £100 back you are in breach of the contract made... of course trying to prove a verbal contract existed is nigh on impossible, which is why written contracts are the norm. However, in this instance the existence of the contract is evident seeing as though Cameron constantly repeated the terms on camera

If Cameron's promise constitutes a verbal contract, can we assume that the £350m extra for the NHS that was promised on the side of that bus is a written contract?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The fact that they accepted the UK's notification under Article 50, for a start. The UK didn't HAVE to negotiate anything, we could walk away after two years and go straight to WTO. If the EU weren't going to accept that, they wouldn't have accepted the notification.

yes they accepted our Article 50 notification... with threats that the UK will be punished for it's decision... which are now coming to fruition. We want to leave? ok... here's the deal... we'll tie you even closer to the EU than you are now, you'll pay for the privilege, you'll get no say on the rules and oh, by the way, sign this deal and you can't leave until we say you can!

And yet remainers STILL try and paint the EU as some kindly benevolent uncle!

 

[EM2]

yes they accepted our Article 50 notification... with threats that the UK will be punished for it's decision... which are now coming to fruition. We want to leave? ok... here's the deal... we'll tie you even closer to the EU than you are now, you'll pay for the privilege, you'll get no say on the rules and oh, by the way, sign this deal and you can't leave until we say you can!

And yet remainers STILL try and paint the EU as some kindly benevolent uncle!

Again, they (the EU) do not have to do ANYTHING. They could let us walk away with no deal, and become the only country in the world that does not belong to any trade bloc and trade solely on WTO rules. That would hurt us, and them.
But if we want to negotiate, then they will want the strongest deal that looks after their interests, won't they? Why would 27 vote against their own best interest in favour of 1?
This is the biggest problem with the Leave campaign. It believes that the UK should get everything its own way, and anyone with a modicum of sense could tell that that was never going to happen.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If Cameron's promise constitutes a verbal contract, can we assume that the £350m extra for the NHS that was promised on the side of that bus is a written contract?

nope. Simply put no-one said they would put £350m into the NHS... all they said was that that amount of money would be freed up to put into the NHS... whereas Cameron said "you do this and I will abide by the result" of course the very next day after the vote he broke his contract with the people anyway as he promised that "whatever the outcome" he would stay and complete the job.... and then promptly scurried off into the sunset when he got the wrong answer and realised he was up a certain creek without a certain form of propulsion...cos in his arrogance he couldn't conceive that his view might be the minority one.... and he immediately realised that his failure to plan for all outcomes was going to cause mayhem.

Incidentally, although Mrs May is the butt of all the vitriol at the moment, I believe that history will blame Cameron for the dreadful deal that we get from the EU

 

[Howardh]

yes they accepted our Article 50 notification... with threats that the UK will be punished for it's decision... which are now coming to fruition. We want to leave? ok... here's the deal... we'll tie you even closer to the EU than you are now, you'll pay for the privilege, you'll get no say on the rules and oh, by the way, sign this deal and you can't leave until we say you can!

I've got an idea.

Let's stay then. We get the benefits AND the say. Just a thought, like.