The EU "Deal" - poll!

[EM2]

This thread is a great example of why remainers haven't had any success at persuading leavers, even though the process of leaving has turned out to be so awful.

They just don't get it. When, as an example from the last few posts, people have a concern about immigration, you don't change any minds with:

- Well Japan and Bangladesh (!) are more densely populated
- A lot of people live in London
- If you don't like it, move

They're all ludicrous responses, the last particularly so when used by someone from Northern Ireland!

Conversely, there hasn't really been any explanation about why they have a concern about immigration, apart from some nebulous vagueness about 'not enough room'.

 

[mmh]

Conversely, there hasn't really been any explanation about why they have a concern about immigration, apart from some nebulous vagueness about 'not enough room'.

Oh there has. Endless amounts of it. You've discounted it because you don't agree with it, and that's fair enough, but to say it doesn't exist is nonsense.

 

[EM2]

Oh there has. Endless amounts of it. You've discounted it because you don't agree with it, and that's fair enough, but to say it doesn't exist is nonsense.

I haven't seen any concrete reasoning for it. For example, something like 'every x,000 people coming to the UK from the EU means £y,000 more spent by the NHS'. Is there any?

 

[Giugiaro]

I haven't seen any concrete reasoning for it.

Three or more years about Brexit and there are still these mysteries!?

 

[bramling]

If things are so bad in your area... MOVE

Blimey you’re really selling remain well there!

 

[HH]

Personally I think we do have too many people in the UK; in fact there are just too many people in the world. Moving them around between countries doesn't really alter that. There are huge unpopulated areas in the country, but I am glad of that; I don't want them filled up with people. Is EU immigration really the big cause of population increase though?

One country working on its own is not going to solve these problems. To me the challenges facing the world, which we are killing off with our short-sighted desires are a good reason to work together. It's actually one of the reasons I like the EU; you need a big power to counteract the countries that elect leaders who tell them it's OK to go on destroying the world.

 

[radamfi]

Part of the issue is of course that freedom of movement worked quite happily before the eastern enlargement. As ever the EU failed to adapt.

But what if the eastern expansion didn't happen? Then countries near to Russia may well have been sucked back into Russia's sphere of influence. Blocking free movement for those countries indefinitely wouldn't have worked as it would look like they were second class Europeans.

 

[birchesgreen]

Ironically the EU member which most pushed for eastern expansion was... well you can guess

 

[radamfi]

Personally I think we do have too many people in the UK; in fact there are just too many people in the world. Moving them around between countries doesn't really alter that. There are huge unpopulated areas in the country, but I am glad of that; I don't want them filled up with people. Is EU immigration really the big cause of population increase though?

Obviously there are too many people in the world, that goes without saying. But it is generally better for the environment if people live close together than being spread thinly over a wide area as it means that public transport is more viable and people don't need to travel as far. Immigrants are typically concentrated in big cities and often live in high density accommodation so don't take up much space and don't use the car much compared to home grown families who often flee to car dependent family houses in suburbia.

Stopping Brits moving to, say the Netherlands or Switzerland, is also bad for the environment as public transport and cycling is less attractive in the UK.

 

[Howardh]

Well so there's almost now no reason legally not to withdraw A50 should we wish. That means if the vote on the deal fails, May has the option of chucking her red lines to try to get a Customs Union and Single Market deal through; and if that doesn't happen extend A50 and a referendum on remaining or leaving with no deal - or whtever deal's offered.

Now we know we can reverse A50 unilaterally, it wouldn't surprise me if the ERG dropped their intransiance and got behind the deal as their Brexit (and the EU's tax directives more to the point) are slipping further and further away.

 

[furnessvale]

But what if the eastern expansion didn't happen? Then countries near to Russia may well have been sucked back into Russia's sphere of influence. Blocking free movement for those countries indefinitely wouldn't have worked as it would look like they were second class Europeans.

Ironic that EU supporters claim that the EU has done more to keep peace in Europe than NATO.

The EU has done more to twist the tiger's tail (Russia) which came close to a flashpoint with The Ukraine and may still do.

 

[radamfi]

Ironic that EU supporters claim that the EU has done more to keep peace in Europe than NATO.

The EU has done more to twist the tiger's tail (Russia) which came close to a flashpoint with The Ukraine and may still do.

EU membership enables central/eastern Europe to become more economically and culturally integrated with the rest of Europe.

 

[furnessvale]

EU membership enables central/eastern Europe to become more economically and culturally integrated with the rest of Europe.

Which is totally irrelevant to my point, especially if you look from the Russian point of view who believe such alignment should be with them.

 

[radamfi]

Which is totally irrelevant to my point, especially if you look from the Russian point of view who believe such alignment should be with them.

Even the US wanted the eastern enlargement and put pressure on the EU to make it happen.

 

[furnessvale]

Even the US wanted the eastern enlargement and put pressure on the EU to make it happen.

Wow! So the EU jumps to the tune of the US piper! All this talk in Brexit threads about the US only looking after its own interests! Who'd have thought it!

 

[EM2]

Which is totally irrelevant to my point, especially if you look from the Russian point of view who believe such alignment should be with them.

So you'd rather have those countries as foes in the Warsaw Pact/Communist Bloc, than as friends in the EU?

 

[birchesgreen]

People seem to think it was some sort of nefarious plot by the EU/US to pull these countries away from the loving embrace of Moscow. In reality they couldn't get away fast enough.

 

[furnessvale]

So you'd rather have those countries as foes in the Warsaw Pact/Communist Bloc, than as friends in the EU?

I don't wish to go to war with anyone but if you read back a little you will see I was simply pointing out that the EU is not the great "peacemaker" it likes to portray, that Russia has a sphere of influence which it sees as threatened.

Sometimes pragmatism demands we accept various things. Why have we not yet invaded North Korea to free the oppressed people there?

 

[Muttley]

EU membership enables central/eastern Europe to become more economically and culturally integrated with the rest of Europe.

Ah...the we know what's best for you argument.
Obviously our culture is so much better than there's that it's only right they adopt our ways.
Difficult to see what the difference is between this and any other empire.

 

[radamfi]

Difficult to see what the difference is between this and any other empire.

How about the fact that these countries have voted to join the EU?

 

[nidave]

Ah...the we know what's best for you argument.
Obviously our culture is so much better than there's that it's only right they adopt our ways.
Difficult to see what the difference is between this and any other empire.

Did these countries not ask to join the EU - its not like the USA where they enforce 'MERKA style freedom by invading them. (as do Russa)

 

[krus_aragon]

Even the US wanted the eastern enlargement and put pressure on the EU to make it happen.

Wow! So the EU jumps to the tune of the US piper! All this talk in Brexit threads about the US only looking after its own interests! Who'd have thought it!

People seem to think it was some sort of nefarious plot by the EU/US to pull these countries away from the loving embrace of Moscow. In reality they couldn't get away fast enough.

If you haven't already listened to it, I recommend you check out The Death of the Postwar Settlement: Security and Hubris, on BBC radio iPlayer / BBC sounds: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000y8s

It's one of a series of three programmes, but (iirc) this one discusses the post-cold war eastern enlargement. If not, it's covered in the next part, From Crisis to Crisis: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000112v

 

[Ken H]

If you haven't already listened to it, I recommend you check out The Death of the Postwar Settlement: Security and Hubris, on BBC radio iPlayer / BBC sounds: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000y8s

It's one of a series of three programmes, but (iirc) this one discusses the post-cold war eastern enlargement. If not, it's covered in the next part, From Crisis to Crisis: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000112v

The EU was a CIA project after WW2. The US wanted to ensure they didnt get involved in a European war again.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

People seem to think it was some sort of nefarious plot by the EU/US to pull these countries away from the loving embrace of Moscow. In reality they couldn't get away fast enough.

Quite so. The former Soviet bloc countries all suffered terrible economic hardship while under Russian influence. Go to Poland and the locals will tell you that while they have just about reconciled the evils of the Nazi occupation they continue to hate the Russians for the post-war oppression. The only people in other eastern European countries with any interest in closer ties with Russia are those who are themselves of Russian descent, mostly due to forced relocation as part of Stalinist "Russification". This is particularly evident in the Baltic States. However there is no doubt that the EU does have a problem with being seen as some sort of modern-day empire. Even among Remainers there is no appetite for federalism and some other countries are also starting to question the direction the EU is heading.

 

[HH]

What exactly is wrong with Federalism? Surely we have that already in the UK?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

What exactly is wrong with Federalism? Surely we have that already in the UK?

And one reason for so many Labour heartlands voting for Brexit was too much federalism in this country ie Westminster/Whitehall taking too many decisions which are perceived as being detrimental to much of the country outside the south-east. The Northern DOO dispute could be said to be another manifestation of this disquiet with local politicians now saying they do not support the DfT's way forward. Central government has undermined local authorities for many years now, perhaps it would help to heal the divisions in the country if this policy was to be reversed.

 

[HH]

And one reason for so many Labour heartlands voting for Brexit was too much federalism in this country ie Westminster/Whitehall taking too many decisions which are perceived as being detrimental to much of the country outside the south-east. The Northern DOO dispute could be said to be another manifestation of this disquiet with local politicians now saying they do not support the DfT's way forward. Central government has undermined local authorities for many years now, perhaps it would help to heal the divisions in the country if this policy was to be reversed.

Ah, I misunderstood your complaint; I thought you were objecting to the increased amount of regional government. But I've changed one puzzle for another - there's way more regional government than there used to be. I too think there should be more, but exactly who is stopping it? From what I recall, largely apathy.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Ah, I misunderstood your complaint; I thought you were objecting to the increased amount of regional government. But I've changed one puzzle for another - there's way more regional government than there used to be. I too think there should be more, but exactly who is stopping it? From what I recall, largely apathy.

There is also a good deal of inertia arising from a long-term historical tendency to over-centralise. Our first past the post voting system also makes a tyranny of the majority more likely. Having said all that I'm not sure that a perfect model exists!

 

[Howardh]

Reading the papers this morning it appears half the cabinet now want a referendum as May hits the panic button.

7pm the meaningful vote apparently.

 

[Ken H]

Reading the papers this morning it appears half the cabinet now want a referendum as May hits the panic button.

7pm the meaningful vote apparently.

papers also saying may wants to delay the 'meaningful vote. not sure thats been thought through. The 29th March deadline isnt far away, and if MP's fail to make a decision, then we will leave with no deal then.

Extending Art 50, having a referendum, cancelling Art 50 all would need a new act of parliament passing through the Commons and the Lords. I am not sure that the necessary consultations, the passing of any law and implementation could be done in that timescale. And if she delays the 'meaningful vote', then the time is even less. No means certain any bill would pass seeing as party discipline has broken down over brexit.

Also note that if the vote on mays WA fails, it isnt that easy to have another vote. the convention is that the same motion cant be out in the same session except in special circumstances. The government would have to get the speaker to agree to a second vote on the WA.

Still think £5 on is leaving with no deal on 29th May is worth a punt.