The end of the Secondman

[GusB]

There has been much debate here on the forum about DOO and not having a second member of staff on the train. Over the last couple of years I've been digging through the various accident reports at railwaysarchive.co.uk, and I was quite surprised at how many people were actually involved in the running of trains in the past.

Many of these reports refer to "Driver X" and "Secondman Y" - I'm assuming that the role of the secondman would have essentially been the old fireman grade, but when did it actually become acceptable to run a train without two people in the cab? I'm fairly certain I read somewhere that the rules were relaxed so that it was okay to have one person in the cab, but that if the train ran over a certain speed (100mph), two people were still required.

When were the rules about single "manning" relaxed, and was there as big a stink as there is now with the desire to do away with guards?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

When were the rules about single "manning" relaxed, and was there as big a stink as there is now with the desire to do away with guards?

I think it was in the early 1980s and I do recall a rather serious ASLEF strike on the issue.

At the same time, the speed cap was raised to 110mph meaning only HSTs remained as double manned; ultimately - I think about a decade later - single manning was permitted at all speeds.

 

[30907]

Multiple Units were always single manned IIRC? On the SR at least they were driven by Motormen, I think the grade was merged with Driver in the 60s?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think I might actually be thinking of the flexible rostering strike...???

 

[randyrippley]

Multiple Units were always single manned IIRC? On the SR at least they were driven by Motormen, I think the grade was merged with Driver in the 60s?

No boilers on the Southern, so no need for a "fireman" - even steam heat diesels had a fireman to man the boiler

 

[ungreat]

I was a Traction trainee/secondman/Drivers Assistant whatever you want to call them in the 1980s.

 

[Taunton]

EMUs have been single manned since they first came along, DMUs likewise. Exception was where a loco hauled service was substituted by a dmu, then the rostered fireman for the loco went along. The Edinburgh-Glasgow Class 27 push-pull service was occasionally substituted by a 101 Met-Cam dmu, and that had a fireman in the cab.

Gerry Fiennes, in "I Tried to Run a Railway", actually did a table of all the various strikes over conditions when he was a senior manager in the 1960s, there were quite a few, such as moving the guard on fully fitted freights from a separate rear guards' van to the loco rear cab. In all cases the strike resolution was what had originally ben proposed.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Unlike many other more recent contentious issues the elimination of the Secondman wasn't really dealt with in a concerted national way and natural wastage took care of most of any surplus. As steam disappeared the firemen, though arguably redundant, didn't get forced out and the old habit of two crew members per loco simply continued for a while. It took a while for management to decide that trains didn't really need them and that it was worth paying them off. The wider employment market was also such that railway jobs were seen as rather unattractive meaning there were always shortages and the option of redeploying Secondmen to other roles was a viable one.

 

[hexagon789]

e, the speed cap was raised to 110mph meaning only HSTs remained as double manned; ultimately - I think about a decade later - single manning was permitted at all speeds.

Can't remember exactly when it went, but double manning for 110+ was certainly still in place in 1993.

 

[Harbornite]

I think the secondman role was ditched in 1988; one of UKRL's 58s is named lost boys 1968-88 and it might be a reference to them.

 

[whitrope]

The role of the Drivers Assistant was replaced by that of a Trainman D or G as part of the Traincrew concept in October 1988. single manning up to 110mph was also introduced in the late 80's but double manning at 125mph lasted until privatisation. Driver A and Driver B on the ECML.

 

[Taunton]

Was the 125mph requirement not for two full drivers rather than one and a secondman/fireman? I believe they would exchange seats at the halfway point. It was only required when actually running at 125mph, so for example on Paddington-Bristol services the second driver only went as far as Bath, then returning on an earlier service, a fine efficiency concept which of course caused disruption if down services were being delayed.

One of the issues leading to the Southall accident was on 125mph services it was allowed for the second driver at that speed to be withdrawn, because AWS was providing a backup, meanwhile it was allowed for trains to run at full 125mph with the AWS failed, because there would be a second driver as additional lookout - each rule change ignored the other. The accident train had neither a working AWS nor a second driver.

 

[hexagon789]

Was the 125mph requirement not for two full drivers rather than one and a secondman/fireman? I believe they would exchange seats at the halfway point. It was only required when actually running at 125mph, so for example on Paddington-Bristol services the second driver only went as far as Bath, then returning on an earlier service, a fine efficiency concept which of course caused disruption if down services were being delayed.

In Video125's HST Great West, the narrator (the late Anton Rodgers) notes that two drivers are present until Bristol with only one Bristol-Exeter as the maximum is only 110.

 

[Carlisle]

One of the issues leading to the Southall accident was on 125mph services it was allowed for the second driver at that speed to be withdrawn, because AWS was providing a backup, meanwhile it was allowed for trains to run at full 125mph with the AWS failed, because there would be a second driver as additional lookout - each rule change ignored the other. The accident train had neither a working AWS nor a second driver.

I seem to recall BR originally put a restructuring proposal to ASLEF that included single manning over 110 mph only on ATP fitted routes, but it was either rejected or not pursued, and as others said nothing else changed until after privatisation

 

[hexagon789]

I seem to recall BR originally put a restructuring proposal to ASLEF that included single manning over 110 mph only on ATP fitted routes, but it was either rejected or not pursued, and as others said nothing else changed until after privatisation

The Southall train was even fitted with ATP but it wasn't switched on and the driver wasn't trained to use it.

If ATP had been in enforced use then I think the second driver could have been done away with with relative ease earlier on.

 

[gilbert123]

I remember visiting NRM in the early '80s.we had a class 47 for the return to KingsX .came down to Grantham where we were due a crew change. we had been single manned from York but the relieving driver refused to take the train without a 2nd man. nearly an hour passed before somebody could be found with the result I just ,and only just caught the last train home ex Fenchurch St. I was not happy ,nor the several hundred other passengers.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

One of the most boring and unproductive jobs going I would imagine ......fancy being one on the coal trains from Pantyffynon to GCG / Abernant in the 1970's (and there were) - a double headed train had a crew of 6 , 2 drivers and 2 secondmen , with 1 guard and a shunter. .........

In certain areas , there were secondmen who retired , never having reached a driver's position , - or maybe did in the last years of service.

Another pretty futile job was freight guard on a fully fitted or Freightliner train , basically nodding off in a rear cab , unless of course they (illegally) rode up front with the driver...

 

[Millisle]

I recall reading an account by O S Nock of a diesel cab ride he was to make to Carlisle on a London to Glasgow run in the early '60s. The riding inspector noticed at Crewe that there was a water leak and the engine had to come off. To the great dismay of the crew it transpired that the standby engine was steam. As he put it, up to that point the fireman was expecting to have to do no more than see the driver got his tea.

 

[falcon]

When did the second man go? When the drivers got more money to let him go. As usual.

 

[cin88]

"£7.80 a turn, that's what we sold the secondmen off for. It was a disgrace." - an old hand driver I know. Although his stories from his secondman days would frighten you when taken in a modern context. They were often more than the glorified tea boys that they're popularly portrayed as.

 

[delt1c]

where does the staff reduction end? Computers take over , then what jobs are available for future generations?

 

[Bovverboy]

The Southall train was even fitted with ATP but it wasn't switched on

It's my understanding that it was switched off because there was a fault.

and the driver wasn't trained to use it.

I haven't heard that one before.

 

[hexagon789]

I haven't heard that one before.

The train was fitted with ATP but this was switched off. The equipment, both at trackside and in the London-end power car was fully operational, but was not switched on because neither Drivers Harrison nor Tunnock were then qualified to drive with ATP.

 

[Carlisle]

To the great dismay of the crew it transpired that the standby engine was steam. As he put it, up to that point the fireman was expecting to have to do no more than see the driver got his tea.

I’ve heard similar stories from former bus conductors during the period OMO busses were replacing half cab double deckers. The new vehicles would be on part of the crewe’s daily rota allowing the conductor plenty of time to travel as a passenger