The Economy

[furnessvale]

There's nothing wrong with competing to get the best students - as long as they are maintaining academic entry requirements. Oxford v Cambridge have been doing it for centuries. The problem comes when they have to lower standards to make up numbers.

If they need to advertise on TV to fill their courses isn't that whet they are doing? The only other possible answer is that top grade students are not bothering going to uni but are somehow persuaded by a TV ad.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It has become clear that New Labour’s misguided desire for 50% of school leavers to get a degree was utter folly. Said policy has resulted in many people going to university to study for degrees which mean little and won’t improve their prospects.

It has also caused the higher education sector to bloat beyond all recognition, with many institutions now effectively operating as businesses.

Could a solution to this problem be to pare back the number of universities and limit entrants to those with the grades to get into a decent one (ie Russell Group)? Said entrants would have their education subsidised by the government and be “free at the point of use”.

Investment could then be made in skills based training, with the aim of achieving a cultural shift away from the snobbish requirement for degrees for entry level jobs (many degrees aren’t worth the paper they’re written on today).

I guess the only thing is that really, the move away from the insane "you need a degree to be a entry level admin assistant" rubbish needs to happen first in my eyes. Otherwise you'll have less people going to university, but those entry level jobs still needing degrees. How you do that first, I have no idea though. And of course, you generally get a large number of applications for such job roles, so even if a degree isn't an actual requirement, it is likely that employers will still use the question of "does this person have a degree" in filtering out applications. Sadly, I think it is one of those things that now it has been done, I don't really see an easy way back.

Of course, on the flip side, whilst you do get some people going to university now who probably shouldn't, you also get people going who absolutely should but may not have before. The only reason I probably ended up going (and getting the good well paid job I now have) is because of the "you must go to university" mindset in education these days - otherwise I probably would have not bothered. I grew up in an area where historically, very very few people had gone to university (I was the first member of my family to do so), and you were very much expected to stay local for most of your life and get a (poorly paid) job nearby. Any attempt to better yourself was seen as "oh you think you are too good for us do you"). Also Russel Group means nothing really, its just a research group. Depending on the court, other universities can be a lot better (sometimes the ones that people see as "useless"!).

If they need to advertise on TV to fill their courses isn't that whet they are doing? The only other possible answer is that top grade students are not bothering going to uni but are somehow persuaded by a TV ad.

For the "lower" universities you are probably right.
But for the better ones, its more about getting their name in the minds of people applying. The standards they will want are still high.

 

[Barn]

It has become clear that New Labour’s misguided desire for 50% of school leavers to get a degree was utter folly. Said policy has resulted in many people going to university to study for degrees which mean little and won’t improve their prospects.

I think we're in a bit of a transition period. We've started to realise that in order to cope with automation and competition from other countries that we need a highly skilled population and that probably will need something more than a general school education.

But we're not actually there yet. Neither automation nor globalisation have reached the stage where all jobs need tertiary education, and the glut of graduates means that employers advertising jobs that really do not require that level of education ask for it anyway, in a mistaken belief that there must be something wrong with someone who does not have a degree.

Schools also need to get braver in the advice they are giving. Not all degree courses are equal and not all university courses are equal. Some courses at some universities are effectively just there for personal development and they are unlikely ever to provide a return on investment, when comparing earnings uplift to cost.

 

[najaB]

If they need to advertise on TV to fill their courses isn't that whet they are doing?

Not necessarily - it's no different (in theory at least) to having open days or a presentation at a college fair. They're getting their name out there to prospective students in a cost-effective manner.

 

[fowler9]

Was on the train on Thursday and was listening to a group of girls discussing their A Level results and it was depressing. One of them got an A* distinction or something in Travel and was off to Uni to study Travel. Assuming she graduates what the hell is she going to do with that? Presumably a job in a travel agent or more likely a call centre. Apparently she can recommend some good hotels in Nairobi though (She said she'd never been there).

I don't want to sound bitter but probably do, ha ha, I found my further education a complete waste of time even studying Mechanical Engineering. Unless you have a complete focus and are 100% sure what you want to do it can be a disaster studying a subject at Uni. I think sadly that I am far from being the only one.

 

[Ianno87]

Not necessarily - it's no different (in theory at least) to having open days or a presentation at a college fair. They're getting their name out there to prospective students in a cost-effective manner.

Exactly. The University I attended (a well rated one at that), I didn't even know existed until the year I applied there (not because of a TV ad, but through a Maths teacher).

 

[deltic]

Was on the train on Thursday and was listening to a group of girls discussing their A Level results and it was depressing. One of them got an A* distinction or something in Travel and was off to Uni to study Travel. Assuming she graduates what the hell is she going to do with that? Presumably a job in a travel agent or more likely a call centre. Apparently she can recommend some good hotels in Nairobi though (She said she'd never been there).

I don't want to sound bitter but probably do, ha ha, I found my further education a complete waste of time even studying Mechanical Engineering. Unless you have a complete focus and are 100% sure what you want to do it can be a disaster studying a subject at Uni. I think sadly that I am far from being the only one.

Tourism is a booming sector - as is transport - plenty of job opportunities.

The skills you learn at university are not just technical but I agree its an expensive way to signal your abilities to a potential employer. I wonder if more than 10% of graduates actually use any of the technical skills they learnt at university after they graduate

 

[fowler9]

Tourism is a booming sector - as is transport - plenty of job opportunities.

The skills you learn at university are not just technical but I agree its an expensive way to signal your abilities to a potential employer. I wonder if more than 10% of graduates actually use any of the technical skills they learnt at university after they graduate

Yeah, I didn't mean to sound so negative there but how many graduates are there required with a degree in Travel for the graduate jobs on offer. A lot of the top jobs in travel will get hoovered up by graduates in accountancy, law and perhaps even business studies (which, forgive me, is a bit meh).

 

[yorksrob]

And why does the country insist on tuition fees and student loans, even though they cost the country more than grants ?

Because it helps to keep people in debt - the crack cocaine on which Western society depends to function.

 

[Bromley boy]

Was on the train on Thursday and was listening to a group of girls discussing their A Level results and it was depressing. One of them got an A* distinction or something in Travel and was off to Uni to study Travel. Assuming she graduates what the hell is she going to do with that? Presumably a job in a travel agent or more likely a call centre. Apparently she can recommend some good hotels in Nairobi though (She said she'd never been there).

I don't want to sound bitter but probably do, ha ha, I found my further education a complete waste of time even studying Mechanical Engineering. Unless you have a complete focus and are 100% sure what you want to do it can be a disaster studying a subject at Uni. I think sadly that I am far from being the only one.

The harsh truth is that a degree in mechanical engineering is a million miles from one in “travel”. Employers know this, most students know it, the only people who don’t know it are “careers advisors” who mislead students by insisting all degrees are equal (newsflash: they aren’t).

Even if you didn’t enjoy the subject, or go on to use it, having that on your CV says a great deal about you, all of it good! I dare say most employers would regard a bare pass in mechanical engineering as better than a first in “travel and tourism”.

It isn’t an academic subject, so it’s ludicrous that you can study for a degree in it! It would be no less nonsensical to study for a degree in train driving!

 

[NSEFAN]

It isn’t an academic subject, so it’s ludicrous that you can study for a degree in it! It would be no less nonsensical to study for a degree in train driving!

As an aside, was there not once a proposal to bring driver training out of the hands of TOCs and instead turned into a degree-esque course, to get future employees to bear the cost of their training?

 

[underbank]

As an aside, was there not once a proposal to bring driver training out of the hands of TOCs and instead turned into a degree-esque course, to get future employees to bear the cost of their training?

Isn't that how airline staff are trained these days? I'm sure I've seen articles about low cost airlines charging training pilots and aircrew for their training?

 

[deltic]

The harsh truth is that a degree in mechanical engineering is a million miles from one in “travel”. Employers know this, most students know it, the only people who don’t know it are “careers advisors” who mislead students by insisting all degrees are equal (newsflash: they aren’t).

Even if you didn’t enjoy the subject, or go on to use it, having that on your CV says a great deal about you, all of it good! I dare say most employers would regard a bare pass in mechanical engineering as better than a first in “travel and tourism”.

It isn’t an academic subject, so it’s ludicrous that you can study for a degree in it! It would be no less nonsensical to study for a degree in train driving!

As one definition of academic is "not of practical relevance; of only theoretical interest." we should be glad people are undertaking vocational and practical degrees. You are right a degree in travel is a million miles from one in mechanical engineering - the management and business skills that you learn in the former are applicable in far more areas of work than a degree in mechanical engineering

 

[Domh245]

As one definition of academic is "not of practical relevance; of only theoretical interest." we should be glad people are undertaking vocational and practical degrees. You are right a degree in travel is a million miles from one in mechanical engineering - the management and business skills that you learn in the former are applicable in far more areas of work than a degree in mechanical engineering

Just a point of order but my understanding is that any IMechE accredited course (ie pretty much every mech eng course from a reputable uk university) will involve studying managerial, business, and other 'soft' skills beyond simple maths and physics. At Nottingham I've had one module a year that has been focused on professional/management areas and techniques.

 

[birchesgreen]

Even if you didn’t enjoy the subject, or go on to use it, having that on your CV says a great deal about you, all of it good! I dare say most employers would regard a bare pass in mechanical engineering as better than a first in “travel and tourism”.

Well it depends on the employer, i suspect Thomas Cook would rather the tourism graduate than the engineer for a holiday sales advisor role. Though i do agree that too many people go to uni and many jobs shouldn't require degrees.

In many cases the degree itself isn't that important, the important thing is that you have shown to an employer you can learn and apply yourself. One of my ex-bosses has had a career as a graphic designer and later a business analyst (and very successful too) and his degree was politics.

 

[fowler9]

Well it depends on the employer, i suspect Thomas Cook would rather the tourism graduate than the engineer for a holiday sales advisor role. Though i do agree that too many people go to uni and many jobs shouldn't require degrees.

In many cases the degree itself isn't that important, the important thing is that you have shown to an employer you can learn and apply yourself. One of my ex-bosses has had a career as a graphic designer and later a business analyst (and very successful too) and his degree was politics.

By holiday sales advisor do you mean someone who sells holidays in a travel agent shop? When did a degree become a requirement for this job?

 

[najaB]

By holiday sales advisor do you mean someone who sells holidays in a travel agent shop?

I suspect this is more likely likely to be upmarket, bespoke holidays rather than package holidays to Majorca.

 

[fowler9]

I suspect this is more likely likely to be upmarket, bespoke holidays rather than package holidays to Majorca.

So you need a degree to sell upmarket holidays or cars or clothes? Nuts. If you sincerely think that area of research warrants a degree then fair enough. I'd say it just devalues having a degree.

 

[najaB]

So you need a degree to sell upmarket holidays or cars or clothes? Nuts.

To do it well, yes. It's no different to degrees in hospitality or journalism. You can do it without a degree, but you won't be as good.

 

[Domh245]

To do it well, yes. It's no different to degrees in hospitality or journalism. You can do it without a degree, but you won't be as good.

I'm not sure that necessarily follows. In a more vocational type degree, the real metric will be to see if the person with 3 years of experience in that field (having gone into it straight out of school) is as good or bad as the person who has been at uni for the past 3 years. In my mind, the person with the experience will beat the graduate hands down to start with and will probably continue to beat them for a few years at least, and even then - will the graduate have learned something at uni that would allow them to overtake the non-graduate, that the non-grad hasn't picked up or gone on a short course to learn?

 

[birchesgreen]

So you need a degree to sell upmarket holidays or cars or clothes? Nuts. If you sincerely think that area of research warrants a degree then fair enough. I'd say it just devalues having a degree.

Well i'm not sure about a degree or not but a friend of mine does sell upmarket holidays and she has to do loads of training and research to keep up to date.

 

[Bromley boy]

So you need a degree to sell upmarket holidays or cars or clothes? Nuts. If you sincerely think that area of research warrants a degree then fair enough. I'd say it just devalues having a degree.

Indeed it does.

To do it well, yes. It's no different to degrees in hospitality or journalism. You can do it without a degree, but you won't be as good.

I’m curious as to why you think that?

I’d suggest that, as with any other sales job, selling holidays (whether cheap or expensive) requires an ability to sell first and foremost. Not academic prowess.

Degrees in hospitality and journalism are perceived by those whose opinions matter (ie employers) as joke degrees.

 

[najaB]

I’d suggest that, as with any other sales job, selling holidays (whether cheap or expensive) requires an ability to sell first and foremost. Not academic prowess.

At the top end you don't sell anything, you create experiences.

Degrees in hospitality and journalism are perceived by those whose opinions matter (ie employers) as joke degrees.

Yet they ask for them in new hires.

 

[yorkie]

Degrees in hospitality and journalism are perceived by those whose opinions matter (ie employers) as joke degrees.

What is your source?

You do make a lot of claims on this forum on non-rail matters but many of these are found to be doubtful when researched.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/en/articles/art20131121145818479

The BBC is interested in personal qualities as well as educational achievements. It puts a high value on a proven commitment to a career in journalism and on qualities such as energy, enthusiasm, flair, imagination, passion, analytical skills, intellectual curiosity and a reluctance to accept things at face value. You certainly need to be literate and numerate, to be able to swiftly read into and absorb issues and arguments.

Having said that most BBC journalists are graduates, which suggests a degree gives you a definite advantage. And of course a degree is concrete evidence of intellectual discipline.

Many people considering journalism as a career wonder whether they should choose a degree in media studies, journalism or English rather than other subjects. It is fair to say that many senior journalists are suspicious of media studies courses and doubt their relevance and value to a career in news. They look much more favourably on journalism courses which are more news focused.

But your degree need not have any obvious connections to a career in journalism. It is better to study a subject you like and feel passionate about.

If you might want to specialise in a particular area of journalism - such as science, economics, law or politics - then a relevant degree is obviously a great starting point. A second language is also an asset. Many BBC journalists have arts degrees and the BBC is always interested in widening the knowledge base of its workforce.

 

[Bromley boy]

At the top end you don't sell anything, you create experiences.

From that, I’m guessing you’ve never worked in a high end sales role?!

From my abortive foray into sales I can also assure you that it’s incorrect (I also learned I’m a positively dreadful salesman, for the record )

However you dress it up, any sales job boils down to the same thing: flogging your commodity for a good price. The only thing that matters for a salesman is their their numbers.

Yet they ask for them in new hires.

Which rather shows how much rot has set in!

 

[Bromley boy]

What is your source?

You do make a lot of claims on this forum on non-rail matters but many of these are found to be doubtful when researched.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/en/articles/art20131121145818479

Well, yes, but the relevant text in that article is surely where it says:

any people considering journalism as a career wonder whether they should choose a degree in media studies, journalism or English rather than other subjects. It is fair to say that many senior journalists are suspicious of media studies courses and doubt their relevance and value to a career in news. They look much more favourably on journalism courses which are more news focused.

But your degree need not have any obvious connections to a career in journalism. It is better to study a subject you like and feel passionate about.

If you might want to specialise in a particular area of journalism - such as science, economics, law or politics - then a relevant degree is obviously a great starting point. A second language is also an asset. Many BBC journalists have arts degrees and the BBC is always interested in widening the knowledge base of its workforce.

The subtext to the (emboldened above) article is surely that, if you want to become a BBC journalist, you should do an academic degree in a subject that interests you, rather than spending/borrowing the same inordinate amount to do “media studies” or similar.

As for a source, well, I can tell you I spent a decade working in professional environments (magic circle law firm, then big 4) which were exclusively comprised of grads from the same select few unis/subjects. In that time I don't think I came across anyone (in technical/fee earning roles, at least) who hadn’t studied an academic subject at a Russel group uni, and done well in it (unless their parents were well connected!).

This is the message school careers advisors need to be getting out there.

LinkedIn is also fruitful:

Look up the UK’s most favourable graduate employers (favourable as in, if you get onto it, potentially paying you a life changing salary in your 20s) and look at some grad profiles. By these I mean:

- investment banks;
- leading law firms;
- “big 4” audit/prof services firms;
- consultancy firms;
- major corporates.

You’ll find the vast majority of people who get onto these grad schemes studied at one of the “usual suspect” unis, and studied subjects that are regarded as academically rigorous.

(my brief sales experience being an exception. You can make incredible money in sales if you have the ability to sell. Degrees/qualifications are neither here nor there, and made precisely no difference in my case!).

 

[yorkie]

So are you denying that an journalism degree would give a candidate an "advantage" and be "looked upon favourably"? You earlier said it was a "joke degree".

I certainly agree there are too many dubious degrees and too many people going to university though, as many people are needed to fill jobs that do not require degrees.

 

[Bromley boy]

So are you denying that an journalism degree would give a candidate an "advantage" and be "looked upon favourably"? You earlier said it was a "joke degree".

I’m not privy to the BBC’s recruitment policy...

But, I would ask (and urge anyone considering spending good cash-money to study for a degree) to consider the following:

- which leading journalists have journalism degrees? (Most of the BBC news anchors, paxman etc. are ex oxbridge, as was Polly Toynbee);

- Do any Russel group unis offer journalism as a degree?;

- which degree can you do that is going to see you earning good money (to justify your enormous investment) in your early 20s?;

- look at linked in profiles of recent grads in your chosen industry to give you an answer.

My overall view is that university education should be free for those who are academically able. Not dummed down and made available for those who aren’t! That simply isn’t helpful, or useful, especially at today’s prices!!!

 

[birchesgreen]

I think another career or profession often looks simpler from the outside than is the reality so its hard to judge just what skills and quals you may need to do it. Eh train drivers?

 

[fowler9]

Well i'm not sure about a degree or not but a friend of mine does sell upmarket holidays and she has to do loads of training and research to keep up to date.

I'm sure they do and I didn't mean to make out like it is just an easy job anyone can do. I just can't envisage in what way a degree in travel would help. In fact I can't imagine what such a degree would involve (which perhaps means I should shut up, ha ha). If you are looking to set up a travel company a degree in business and perhaps international law would be more useful.