The difference a refurbishment can make

[ryan125hst]

Last Thursday afternoon, I had the displeasure of travelling from Sheffield to Retford on one of Northern Rail’s Class 150’s, an ex Central Trains unit I believe (150210). It might have been better than a Pacer, but I was very disappointed.

For starters, the 2+3 seating makes for a very cramped aisle, and it meant that passengers were standing even though there were spare seats. Secondly, I couldn’t find any luggage racks, which wasn’t great given that I had a suitcase and a bag full of uni work. Worst of all though was the lack of refurbishment: I’m certain that the train hadn’t been refurbished, other than the addition of Northern liveried seat covers, since it was built. The door interiors were orange, the wall panels brown and the fluorescent lights (one of which wasn’t working) were exposed. The signs (e.g. “please keep your feet off the seats”) looked very British Rail, and I even noticed some sort of emergency handle behind a plastic cover above the door (I’m not 100% sure if it was the emergency train stop handle) with operation instructions handwritten on to the plastic!

By comparison, First Great Western have refurbished their Class 150’s. I’ve not been on one, but from looking at photos online, they have 2+2 seating with seat back tables and even bays of 4 seats around a table as well as arm rests. The panels and doors have been repainted, CCTV has been fitted and a cover has been installed over the lights. They just look so much better!
I remember that their Class 153’s don’t seem to have been refurbished either (although I haven’t been on one since October 2013), and their 142’s aren’t much better. By comparison, their Class 158’s are fantastic, from the photos I’ve seen, their 156’s are looking good now as well. In fact, their Class 144’s seem to have had a decent refurbishment if I’m honest.
So are their plans to give their Class 150’s (and 153’s) a full refurbishment? It will certainly make the trains feel newer and improve passengers perception and comfort. East Coast’s HST’s are over 30 years old but, thanks to Project Mallard, they almost feel like a new train.

Are all their Class 150’s that bad, or was I travelling on the worst of the fleet?

Ryan

 

[Bletchleyite]

Secondly, I couldn’t find any luggage racks, which wasn’t great given that I had a suitcase and a bag full of uni work.

Did you look up? The overhead racks on 150s are quite large.

I agree they're getting manky, but Northern doesn't have much money for heavy refurbs and the likes, and with the overcrowding issues they have it might genuinely be worth keeping 3+2 seating, unless they changed it for narrow 2+2 and a wide aisle for standing space.

Neil

 

[185143]

I can't stand NT 150s, would much rather wait for a pacer. I believe when Northern had an ATW 150 on loan, 150285 IIRC, it suffered very badly with overcrowding. Some 153s have been refurbished, similar to the latest NT 156 refurb.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There seems to be a very wide lack of understanding of the word "refurbishment" when this is suggested for certain types of the Northern Rail rolling stock.

 

[Anchorman_02]

There seems to be a very wide lack of understanding of the word "refurbishment" when this is suggested for certain types of the Northern Rail rolling stock.

In what way?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Last Thursday afternoon, I had the displeasure of travelling from Sheffield to Retford on one of Northern Rail’s Class 150’s, an ex Central Trains unit I believe (150210). It might have been better than a Pacer, but I was very disappointed.

For starters, the 2+3 seating makes for a very cramped aisle, and it meant that passengers were standing even though there were spare seats. Secondly, I couldn’t find any luggage racks, which wasn’t great given that I had a suitcase and a bag full of uni work. Worst of all though was the lack of refurbishment: I’m certain that the train hadn’t been refurbished, other than the addition of Northern liveried seat covers, since it was built. The door interiors were orange, the wall panels brown and the fluorescent lights (one of which wasn’t working) were exposed. The signs (e.g. “please keep your feet off the seats”) looked very British Rail, and I even noticed some sort of emergency handle behind a plastic cover above the door (I’m not 100% sure if it was the emergency train stop handle) with operation instructions handwritten on to the plastic!

By comparison, First Great Western have refurbished their Class 150’s. I’ve not been on one, but from looking at photos online, they have 2+2 seating with seat back tables and even bays of 4 seats around a table as well as arm rests. The panels and doors have been repainted, CCTV has been fitted and a cover has been installed over the lights. They just look so much better!
I remember that their Class 153’s don’t seem to have been refurbished either (although I haven’t been on one since October 2013), and their 142’s aren’t much better. By comparison, their Class 158’s are fantastic, from the photos I’ve seen, their 156’s are looking good now as well. In fact, their Class 144’s seem to have had a decent refurbishment if I’m honest.
So are their plans to give their Class 150’s (and 153’s) a full refurbishment? It will certainly make the trains feel newer and improve passengers perception and comfort. East Coast’s HST’s are over 30 years old but, thanks to Project Mallard, they almost feel like a new train.

Are all their Class 150’s that bad, or was I travelling on the worst of the fleet?

Ryan

I wouldn't bank on it unless something pops up out of the franchise change. Those units are indeed original in terms of the box seat bases and the layout but like Neil says, Northern don't have a big budget for what you might consider a proper refurbishment. The 150/2s are knocking on 30 years old but the brief the government have given Northern is basically do more with less. Any proper investment invariably gets shoved at London and the Home Counties so you might see more new old trains if you are lucky.

I don't like to travel on those units either. The seats behind the vestibules have a chronic draught coming from the door enclosures and none of the seats line up with the windows. Like you say, some of the seats have had new covers but some new covers are on seat bases with no stuffing in them which they could do something about if they could be bothered to. It's a shame because that sort of shabbiness let's them down.

There are two handles by train doors. One is the Passenger Communication Device (passcom) and is coloured red. It will apply the train brakes if pulled. The other is the Egress Device and is green. It will apply the train brakes and then release the train doors when the speed drops under about 3mph and is intended as a means of emergency escape.

 

[387star]

FGW have identical units also from Central Trains... perhaps we should be blaming Central cough National Express for this?

FGW have, however, at least painted the interiors and improved the lighting even if the flooring is still green!

Northern have refurbished all 153s now including the ex FNW ones which were incredibly neglected for a while

The 156s went around with new seat covers but little else for a while so you never know if further work is planned however the ex ATN 150s also have the same seating style which has never been changed... Northern haven't changed any seats

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are two handles by train doors. One is the Passenger Communication Device (passcom) and is coloured red. It will apply the train brakes if pulled. The other is the Egress Device and is green. It will apply the train brakes and then release the train doors when the speed drops under about 3mph and is intended as a means of emergency escape.

On 150s the egress device is simpler and is a small handle that is turned to release the doors. It is above the door, and I do recall some sets had handwritten instructions on them for years.

Pretty sure 5km/h door blocking is not fitted to older units like 150s (you certainly don't hear the bolts throw when starting off/stopping like you do on new stock), so I imagine operating it would release the doors immediately and apply the brakes because of the loss of interlock.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

In what way?

Operators like FGW refer to new seat covers, an internal repaint and new floor covering as a 'refresh', Northern refer to it as a 'refurbishment.' For operators like FGW a refurbishment includes brand new seating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ryan125hst: Northern's non-refurbished 150s are the ex-ATN 150s (which there are 10 of) and the ex-LM 150s. The ex-FNW 150s in the Northern fleet look like this: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8269/8714309986_4eb8506e64.jpg (the seating is identical to what can be found on the c2c 357s

The ex-Wessex 150s which FGW have got refurbished but the ex-LM 150s they have still retain the original interiors.

 

[Llama]

On 150s the egress device is simpler and is a small handle that is turned to release the doors. It is above the door, and I do recall some sets had handwritten instructions on them for years.

Pretty sure 5km/h door blocking is not fitted to older units like 150s (you certainly don't hear the bolts throw when starting off/stopping like you do on new stock), so I imagine operating it would release the doors immediately and apply the brakes because of the loss of interlock.

Neil

On a 150 the egress simply drains the air from the door mechanism meaning the doors can simply be slid apart. Interlock wouldn't be lost until the doors start to be opened.

There is no electro-mechanical locking of any doors on 14x or 15x stock, there is a low-speed relay but that only relates to various electrical systems.

 

[Clip]

I dont really use Northern all that much but with regards to the refresh/refurb(take note it doesnt matter what you call it - its what it entails which is the main detail) is the simple fact that Northern seem to generally need all the units they have spare, at all times so they get faced with the issue of shortening other services so that one or two can go in to get something done to them.

And if they do that they get angry passengers who complain about just that. Something has to give and to be fair to them its generally not their fault with the hand they have been dealt with.

Im sure if those who complain about the interioirs would prefer to have no train or a vastly shorter train to release them for the works then great. However I doubt it very much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no electro-mechanical locking of any doors on 14x or 15x stock, there is a low-speed relay but that only relates to various electrical systems.

Is the ratchet type device on the outer edge of the door on 142s pneumatic as well, then? Didn't know that.

Neil

 

[driver9000]

Is the ratchet type device on the outer edge of the door on 142s pneumatic as well, then? Didn't know that.

Neil

The Waistlock is electrical.

 

[Llama]

Correct. I was answering the question in the context it was asked, ie that there is no secondary locking of any doors on 14/15x units once the low-speed relay operates. More modern stock incorporate systems where 'speed bolts' are deployed at low speeds when starting away.

 

[driver9000]

Correct. I was answering the question in the context it was asked, ie that there is no secondary locking of any doors on 14/15x units once the low-speed relay operates. More modern stock incorporate systems where 'speed bolts' are deployed at low speeds when starting away.

I guessed as much

 

[PHILIPE]

Only the FGW 150/2s have been re-furbished to 2+2 seating. They are not allowed to convert the 150/1s due to the fact that when they were cascaded to FGW (mostly 2011) the DFT Bean Counters specifically stated that xx number of additional seats will be provided.

You might like to connect this thread with:-

www.railforumms.co.uk/showthread.php?t=108377

Topic is Northern refurbishment.

 

[northwichcat]

I dont really use Northern all that much but with regards to the refresh/refurb(take note it doesnt matter what you call it - its what it entails which is the main detail) is the simple fact that Northern seem to generally need all the units they have spare, at all times so they get faced with the issue of shortening other services so that one or two can go in to get something done to them.

And if they do that they get angry passengers who complain about just that. Something has to give and to be fair to them its generally not their fault with the hand they have been dealt with.

Im sure if those who complain about the interioirs would prefer to have no train or a vastly shorter train to release them for the works then great. However I doubt it very much.

What should be noted is with the ex-FGW 142s and ex-LM 150s is many of them sat out-of-use for a few months. Yet after they'd been introduced in service at Northern (or re-introduced in the case of the ex-FGW 142s) Northern started a refresh program.

The ex-LM 150s were in a horrific condition when Northern introduced them in service - worn out seat covers, graffiti all over the seat backs, mis-matched walls and floor. It didn't help that they were re-formed so some 2 car 150s had a de-branded West Midlands PTE livered carriage joined on to a de-branded Central livered carriage.

Some joined up thinking would have seen units going to be done up while they weren't being used by either operator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Correct. I was answering the question in the context it was asked, ie that there is no secondary locking of any doors on 14/15x units once the low-speed relay operates. More modern stock incorporate systems where 'speed bolts' are deployed at low speeds when starting away.

Ah I see, thanks.

Neil

 

[Anchorman_02]

I can assure you that the doors will not open by use of the egress handle until the train speed has dropped below approx 3mph on any class of unit in the UK if it is in mainline use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can assure you that the doors will not open by use of the egress handle until the train speed has dropped below approx 3mph on any class of unit in the UK if it is in mainline use.

Do you sign 15x? As I'm pretty sure that's not correct of those, and Llama seems to agree. Unless there's been some kind of retrofit to lock the release handle when in motion, I guess.

Neil

 

[Anchorman_02]

Do you sign 15x? As I'm pretty sure that's not correct of those, and Llama seems to agree. Unless there's been some kind of retrofit to lock the release handle when in motion, I guess.

Neil

I've instructed on then until recently. Unlocking of the doors while the train is in motion has been prohibited on all classes for some years now as it is deemed as equally dangerous as locking people inside a carriage. Have a read of page 11 of the Railway Group Standard;

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_...ck/Railway Group Standards/GMRT2473 Iss 2.pdf

 

[Wolfie]

What should be noted is with the ex-FGW 142s and ex-LM 150s is many of them sat out-of-use for a few months. Yet after they'd been introduced in service at Northern (or re-introduced in the case of the ex-FGW 142s) Northern started a refresh program.

The ex-LM 150s were in a horrific condition when Northern introduced them in service - worn out seat covers, graffiti all over the seat backs, mis-matched walls and floor. It didn't help that they were re-formed so some 2 car 150s had a de-branded West Midlands PTE livered carriage joined on to a de-branded Central livered carriage.

Some joined up thinking would have seen units going to be done up while they weren't being used by either operator.

my bold

I fully agree. However, as soon as Northern took them on to refurbish/refresh them they would be on the hook for leasing charges....

 

[northwichcat]

I fully agree. However, as soon as Northern took them on to refurbish/refresh them they would be on the hook for leasing charges....

The units started to be transferred to Newton Heath in the September but Northern weren't allowed to use most of them until the December timetable change because of DfT funding - despite the fact Northern would have got 150s years earlier had the 172 delivery not been delayed. They were allowed to use 6 of them when they released the 180s and another 4 when they released 4 x 156s to EMT (as direct replacement.) However, the additional trains had to remain out of service until the next timetable change.

Given that apparently Northern were fined for not returning the 180s in an acceptable condition, LM should have been fined for not returning the 150s in an acceptable condition with the leasing company putting the fine towards making the interiors acceptable.

 

[driver9000]

To be fair when the LM 150s arrived in the North West I found them 'lived in' but in a far cleaner and tidier condition than the 150s already in the fleet. They could do with a good gutting and refitting though.

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair when the LM 150s arrived in the North West I found them 'lived in' but in a far cleaner and tidier condition than the 150s already in the fleet. They could do with a good gutting and refitting though.

Can't remember when the ex-FNW 150s got refreshed but I'm sure the ex-ATN 150s had been given an overdue refresh by then. Having graffiti on the back of the seats was certainly not something I was used to seeing on Northern services until the ex-LM 150s arrived.

 

[507 001]

To be fair when the LM 150s arrived in the North West I found them 'lived in' but in a far cleaner and tidier condition than the 150s already in the fleet. They could do with a good gutting and refitting though.

I always thought the same. The ex FNW 150s were absolutely disgusting. They're better now but still not great.

I've been on a FGW 150, got to say it was nothing to write home about. Wouldn't say it was any better than a northern unit.

 

[driver9000]

Around 2002 I think the FNW 150s were refurbished. The ATN sets still had the same BR layout the LM sets arrived with. The ATN sets were carrying BR Pay train notices until refreshed a few years ago.

 

[northwichcat]

Around 2002 I think the FNW 150s were refurbished.

I was meaning when they got refreshed by Northern - new seat covers, repaint and new floor cover, opposed to the full refurbishment which I understand was specified by North Western Trains but they became FNW before the work was completed.

 

[driver9000]

I was meaning when they got refreshed by Northern - new seat covers, repaint and new floor cover, opposed to the full refurbishment which I understand was specified by North Western Trains but they became FNW before the work was completed.

Ah. My mistake, that would have been around 2009/10. From memory it didn't include a new floor lino just a very good clean of the FNW one.

 

[168lover]

the 168 fleet refurbishment that has been going on for the last year has been excellent. I've seen normal punters think that they are new trains.

 

[455driver]

I've been on a FGW 150, got to say it was nothing to write home about. Wouldn't say it was any better than a northern unit.

Was it a 150/0 a 150/1 a 150/2 or a 150/9?
Did it have 2+3 seating or 2+2 (and more tables?