The Deep-tube train replacement update

[tranzitjim]

I have been away from this forum for a while, and, I hope for an update on what was a recent proposal to replace all of the Deep-tube trains on the London Underground with one new fleet, similar to the S stock replacing all Sub-surface fleet.

I know they are not here yet, but think I remember an order was placed for them??

I remember, they where to replace the stock that had DC trraction motors, but not those with the AC traction motors?

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes an order has been placed for 2022 Stock with Siemens to be built at a new factory in Goole. Ninety four trains will be built for the Piccadilly Line arriving from 2023, what happens next is still up in the air with some talk of replacing the Jubilee Line fleet next.

 

[D365]

Yes an order has been placed for 2022 Stock with Siemens to be built at a new factory in Goole.

Where has this designation been confirmed, please?

 

[birchesgreen]

Where has this designation been confirmed, please?

It was in the LURS' Underground News a couple of months ago.

Addendum: though just been looking it up and they might not arrive until 2025 now so the name could change. Infact on District Dave forum they are saying 2024 Tube Stock.

 

[Nym]

Strange, it was 2023 stock in all the fleet management systems. Still, shows the usual level of political influence if this has changed again.

 

[65477]

Where has this designation been confirmed, please?

The February edition of Rail Express reports the designation as 2024 stock. The article points out that if the convention of designating by year of entry into service is kept to this might slip to 2025.

 

[Domh245]

The article points out that if the convention of designating by year of entry into service is kept to this might slip to 2025.

I don't think that is really a convention. Going back to the 38TS (and looking only at full size fleets not prototypes), only the 38, 59 (just), 62, 72 and 2009 stocks entered service in their eponymous year, and 2 of those fleets are modified variants of other fleets done purely to get them into service ASAP. 1 to 2 year gap between their designated year and entry into service seems very traditional

 

[MatthewRead]

Hopefully it won't be as late as 2025 I hope it's 2023 and no later.

 

[Nym]

2023 on TfL time is a possibility.
But look at the timescale for 2009TS and that was with a plant that had delivered stock for LUL before.

 

[LOL The Irony]

So they're not calling them the NTfL anymore?

I remember, they where to replace the stock that had DC trraction motors, but not those with the AC traction motors?

Actually, the plan is to keep the DC 96 Stock and replace the AC 95 Stock because early AC technology and whatnot.

 

[Domh245]

Actually, the plan is to keep the DC 96 Stock and replace the AC 95 Stock because early AC technology and whatnot.

The 96TS have induction (AC) motors as well, just a different driving technology (GTO in the 96 vs IGBT in the 95)

I've also not heard about any plan to replace the 95TS, only a plan to supplement them with the 96TS as part of an expanded Northern Line

 

[Nym]

1996TS has AC traction motors.

Oops. Slightly late there.

There is a will within AP-JNP (Formally TubeLines) to retraction the 1996TS because of obsolete kit in the GTO traction control. But...
There just isn't a business case.

 

[Class465pacer]

I highly doubt the 95/96 TS are being replaced anytime soon seeing as they’ve both had recent refurbishments, the 72, 73 and 92 TS need replacing sooner, and TfL are broke.

 

[philthetube]

The February edition of Rail Express reports the designation as 2024 stock. The article points out that if the convention of designating by year of entry into service is kept to this might slip to 2025.

95stock entered service in 98 and 96 in 97, so not really a convention.

 

[birchesgreen]

There is talk of replacing the 96TS, some going to the Northern Line to augment the fleet for the new extension and improved service.

NTfL became DTUP around about the time that Johnson bloke left the mayor's office to do something else.

 

[3rd rail land]

I highly doubt the 95/96 TS are being replaced anytime soon seeing as they’ve both had recent refurbishments, the 72, 73 and 92 TS need replacing sooner, and TfL are broke.

Absolutely. The 72 and 73 TS are quite visibly worn out. The 92 TS seems to be in better condition but it could very well be that the bits a passenger wouldn't ordinarily be able to see are rather worn out. Where the heck TFL/LUL are going to get the money to pay for new rolling stock is a mystery to me but the oldest rolling stock in service won't last too much longer so procuring new rolling stock can't really be put off.

I'd be surprised if there are any plans at all to replace the 95 & 96 TS. As far as I can tell these trains can last quite a bit longer before needing replacing and I don't see how TFL/LUL will be able to fund new rolling stock for all deep tube lines. IN fact It wouldn't surprise me if the 95 & 96 TS are in revenue earning service in 2040.

 

[D365]

Actually, the plan is to keep the DC 96 Stock and replace the AC 95 Stock because early AC technology and whatnot.

1. 96TS is early AC inverter technology (GTO).
2. 95TS uses more developed AC inverters (IGBT).
3. 92TS is DC motored, using GTO inverters for field control, due to be retractioned by 2024.

 

[Mikey C]

I highly doubt the 95/96 TS are being replaced anytime soon seeing as they’ve both had recent refurbishments, the 72, 73 and 92 TS need replacing sooner, and TfL are broke.

The suggestion (maybe just on here) is to buy a new fleet for the Jubilee Line, and move the existing 96s to both boost the Northern Line AND replace the Bakerloo Line's 72 stock

I've not seen any evidence that this is a genuine suggestion or even whether the 96 stock carriages would fit on the Bakerloo Line either!

 

[birchesgreen]

The suggestion (maybe just on here) is to buy a new fleet for the Jubilee Line, and move the existing 96s to both boost the Northern Line AND replace the Bakerloo Line's 72 stock

I've not seen any evidence that this is a genuine suggestion or even whether the 96 stock carriages would fit on the Bakerloo Line either!

It was in Modern Railways (first bit anyway), not the 96ts going to the Bakerloo.

 

[SECR263]

In 1937 the London Transport Passenger Board ordered 1108 cars of 1938 stock to try and achieve a "Standard" fleet of cars. Done partially to alleviate employment (now more than relevant) and due to the need to update the fleets. Are there any persons in Government to grasp the fact that perhaps is now is the time to order on a big scale so that all the problems faced by operators could be eased. Contract to specify all cars to be built in the UK and with a UK parts input of 70% by value. Just a thought?

 

[SynthD]

I doubt they can legally justify those contract terms (whether that's because of how reality turns out - Goole isn't making the first half of a recent order - or the remaining equalness with the EU), or financially. They are reducing the range down to S, JNUP and the upcoming other deep level line trains.

The process would be slower, and not ready in time for that kind of boost. All governments, especially photohappy populist, want to be deploying shovel ready projects, not something stuck in paperwork for three years.

 

[birchesgreen]

Modern production methods wouldn't really provide that much of an employment boost. Better to have a slower but steady and sustainable fleet replacement plan over a few decades than have a big bang now and have a huge factory without orders in 10 years.