The competition commission report

[robertclark125]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16261086

So, it's finally been published. Bus operators are to share their own bus stations. So I presume Asda will have to share their stores with little grocers shops?

Operators will have to accept multi operator ticket schemes. But of course, they can still sell their own.

And moves to prevent over bussing. But, what constitues over bussing?

So, what we get is a report with a few ideas, but in reality, very little is being changed. Will it make any difference?

 

[northwichcat]

Bus operators are to share their own bus stations.

Very few bus stations have a single operator and even some of the National Express coach stations allow other operators to use them. In the case of Blackpool coach station National Express and Stagecoach both operate a Manchester via Preston service from the same coach station.

So I presume Asda will have to share their stores with little grocers shops?

Other shops are allowed to build next door to Asda subject to planning permission and owning/leasing the land.

And moves to prevent over bussing. But, what constitues over bussing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Manchester_bus_route_192#Bus_wars
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/how_preston_s_bus_wars_have_been_fought_1_157930

 

[142094]

I remember the Bus Wars well in Newcastle. Was like Christmas - bus every 5 minutes on some routes, with special Magic Bus services where the fare was cheaper. Course this all disappeared when Stagecoach had the monopoly on nearly every route.

The Report also shows the story about Go Ahead and Arriva's dealings with services in Northumberland - showing correctly that nearly all services have no competition at all.

 

[Wyvern]

I remember the Bus Wars well in Newcastle. Was like Christmas - bus every 5 minutes on some routes, with special Magic Bus services where the fare was cheaper. Course this all disappeared when Stagecoach had the monopoly on nearly every route.

More or less the monopoly provider in my area, for the major routes at any rate, is Trent Barton. A few years ago a cowboy firm set up with a few second hand buses competing directly at cut price rates between Alfreton, Ripley, Belper and Derby, with not enough surplus capacity to be reliable.

Trent saw them off and this t**t of a Nottingham Tory councillor complained about it, conveniently not noticing that it had cost Trent so much protecting themselves they had to look closely at their out of hours and weekend and rural services. These had to be taken on and paid for by council subsidy, so who was the winner?

So much for privatisation.

 

[northwichcat]

More or less the monopoly provider in my area, for the major routes at any rate, is Trent Barton.

And they are supposed to be merging with Bowers to form 'High Peak' as soon as the legal formalities are completed.

 

[142094]

One of the other things is that when there is any investment in new buses, they stay around for a few years then disappear, so the less frequent routes get the crap buses. Arriva going out of Haymarket have some of the oldest (sure some are B reg) - no wonder the area around Haymarket bus station is one of the worst for air pollution in the city.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And they are supposed to be merging with Bowers to form 'High Peak' as soon as the legal formalities are completed.

Are all parts of Trent Barton involved in the "High Peak" venture. I understood that parts of them will not be involved in this matter.

 

[northwichcat]

Are all parts of Trent Barton involved in the "High Peak" venture. I understood that parts of them will not be involved in this matter.

On reading the press release again it says the Dove Holes unit of Trent Barton. How much of the business and what sort of fleet is based at Dove Holes?

I'd hope if the Buxton-Stockport-Airport express route is included that they introduce similar Airport routes with being involved in operations in the Cheshire East area which is close to the Airport but most towns not having a direct Airport link.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One of the other things is that when there is any investment in new buses, they stay around for a few years then disappear, so the less frequent routes get the crap buses.

How would you propose doing that? One option is doing like Cheshire East council have done on some routes and buy buses for the routes and lease them back to the operator, with the operator providing back up vehicles in the event of failure/routine maintenance. However, going too far down that road would give problems with bus leasing that exist with train leasing.

 

[142094]

How would you propose doing that? One option is doing like Cheshire East council have done on some routes and buy buses for the routes and lease them back to the operator, with the operator providing back up vehicles in the event of failure/routine maintenance. However, going too far down that road would give problems with bus leasing that exist with train leasing.

Obviously there'd have to be some sort of regulation by the local authority or PTE, some sort of quality contract. From what I gather this is quite a common practice in the industry - at one time Newcastle had some single deckers that were moved in from Manchester, but Stagecoach at the time hailed it as "new investment".

Best example I can give is the Qualink service here. When the contract wa first signed between Stagecoach and Nexus/local councils, new electric hybrid buses were bought and used. When the contract ended, and was passed over to Go Ahead, again new stcok was bought. The original hybrids now sit unused at Walkergate depot, yet some routes (e.g. 18, which is hourly) still have old single deckers on them.

 

[anthony263]

The green buses used by Veolia on the Gower explorer services were owned by Swansea council, of course they could turn up on other contracted services from time to time, such is the case that some are used by First on the Fforestfach park & ride service with first using their owns darts on the gower explorer network.

 

[Anvil1984]

Obviously there'd have to be some sort of regulation by the local authority or PTE, some sort of quality contract. From what I gather this is quite a common practice in the industry - at one time Newcastle had some single deckers that were moved in from Manchester, but Stagecoach at the time hailed it as "new investment".

Best example I can give is the Qualink service here. When the contract wa first signed between Stagecoach and Nexus/local councils, new electric hybrid buses were bought and used. When the contract ended, and was passed over to Go Ahead, again new stcok was bought. The original hybrids now sit unused at Walkergate depot, yet some routes (e.g. 18, which is hourly) still have old single deckers on them.

The old Quaylink buses are probably not in favour due to their less than average reliability which resulted in older single deckers being painted in Quaylink colours and out on the majority of days. Also there was a time that was due to an exchange with Newcastles low floor double deckers as the scrotes decided to vandalise them, it would be several years before Stagecoach would decide to give it another go with the low floor double deckers in the North East

 

[LE Greys]

There are some oddities. It's unfortunate that First Aberdeen season tickets don't cover Stagecoach for instance, meaning that you either have to have two (expensive), pay every time you want to go to the station (annoying) or walk down from King Street (tiring). That's partly for geographical reasons, but mostly because almost all the First routes run right through, whilst the Stagecoach routes all terminate at the bus station. I've never seen a First bus there. Even the long-distance services are Stagecoach Megabus, with National Express turning up occasionally. OK for competition, but annoying if you want to travel anywhere. A two-company season ticket (or a Council one perhaps) would be more expensive, but would save a lot of hassle.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On reading the press release again it says the Dove Holes unit of Trent Barton. How much of the business and what sort of fleet is based at Dove Holes?

To re-iterate. the new High Peak company will be formed, either in Spring or Summer 2012, out of an amalgamation of Bowers Coaches who are based in Chapel-en-le-Frith and the most northerly depot of Trent Barton, who are based in Heanor. It is expected to employ about 100 people and to have a fleet of around 50 vehicles and it will operate out of the existing Dove Holes depot.

Trent Barton are quite a large operator in the East Midlands area and their "Mango" ticket is well known there. If you ever are in Derby bus station, you will see quite a number of their routes. As far as I am aware, Trent Barton's current fleet is as follows:-

51 Eclipse vehicles
84 Solar vehicles
33 Excel vehicles
76 Solo vehicles
18 Tempo vehicles

They also have small fleets of the following:-

2 Dart vehicles.....these may be going to High Peak
8 Premiere vehicles
8 Inter-century vehicles
6 Citaro vehicles
5 Irizar vehicles
9 Versa vehicles

I trust that this information is that which was requested.

 

[martinsh]

The old Quaylink buses are probably not in favour due to their less than average reliability

not to mention the manufacturer going out of business ...

----------------------------------------

the only Trent routes that would be part of High Peak would be Skyline 199 (Buxton - Stockport - Manchester Airport) and Buxton local routes. Maybe also some workings on Transpeak (Manchester - Buxton - Derby - Nottingham)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The only Trent routes that would be part of High Peak would be Skyline 199 (Buxton - Stockport - Manchester Airport) and Buxton local routes. Maybe also some workings on Transpeak (Manchester - Buxton - Derby - Nottingham)

It does seem logical for these to be the High Peak routes, with the 199 Airport service being its "flagship". Have you heard what will happen to the Chapel en le Frith assets of Bowers Coaches when the new company commences in 2012?

With regard to the Transpeak service, I had heard some time ago that the Nottingham and Derby connections to the Trent Barton residual body will militate against the northern Dove Holes depot connection and that Transpeak will in fact remain with its base in the East Midlands for the full Nottingham to Manchester route. The shorter Buxton to Derby sections that are run in conjunction with the full route do have possibilities worth examining to see how matters may change with the route being cut back to Matlock on certain journeys.

 

[martinsh]

It does seem logical for these to be the High Peak routes, with the 199 Airport service being its "flagship". Have you heard what will happen to the Chapel en le Frith assets of Bowers Coaches when the new company commences in 2012?

I strongly suspect that the current Bowers premises are still owned by the Bowers family, and only the operations were sold to Centrebus. [ Certainly Mr Bowers used to live in the adjacent house ]

 

[mbonwick]

Best example I can give is the Qualink service here. When the contract wa first signed between Stagecoach and Nexus/local councils, new electric hybrid buses were bought and used. When the contract ended, and was passed over to Go Ahead, again new stcok was bought. The original hybrids now sit unused at Walkergate depot, yet some routes (e.g. 18, which is hourly) still have old single deckers on them.

The original Hybrids *may* be used during the Olympics to allow more vehicles to get to London from Newcastle.
The reason they are currently stored is not directly because of reliability. More it is because they have very poor acceleration characteristics and struggled on any route Stagecoach tried them on. Sad fact is they're not suitable for anything but quaylink.

Finally, the "routes operated by old single deckers" are going over to NEXUS contracts around March, so the darts will be withdrawn then - leaving Stagecoach North East with a completely accessible fleet (bar 10 Olympians and the City Sightseeing operation)

 

[markydh]

Finally, the "routes operated by old single deckers" are going over to NEXUS contracts around March, so the darts will be withdrawn then - leaving Stagecoach North East with a completely accessible fleet (bar 10 Olympians and the City Sightseeing operation)

25th March to be exact :P

 

[142094]

The original Hybrids *may* be used during the Olympics to allow more vehicles to get to London from Newcastle.
The reason they are currently stored is not directly because of reliability. More it is because they have very poor acceleration characteristics and struggled on any route Stagecoach tried them on. Sad fact is they're not suitable for anything but quaylink.

Finally, the "routes operated by old single deckers" are going over to NEXUS contracts around March, so the darts will be withdrawn then - leaving Stagecoach North East with a completely accessible fleet (bar 10 Olympians and the City Sightseeing operation)

I was told that the Quaylink routes wasn't the best for them due to the gradients on both sides of the Tyne (especially Dean Street up towards Grey Street in Newcastle). The other bus painted in the yellow was to cover for maintenance and also an increase in frequency (or so I was told, but course this might be rubbish).

 

[mbonwick]

Correct on both counts sir!

 

[142094]

Must be at least one service in the Stagecoach NE area (so including South Shields and Hartlepool/Teesside) that could use them?

 

[markydh]

They are part owned by NEXUS so could only be used within Tyne & Wear and with their permission. The Sunderland shuttle (700) would have been perfect for 4 of them, but Stagecoach didn't win that contract.

 

[BestWestern]

Must be at least one service in the Stagecoach NE area (so including South Shields and Hartlepool/Teesside) that could use them?

Problem is that unless there's an incentive or a identifiable gain through using them, most operators would probably prefer to leave them well alone. They're not particularly efficient or cheap to operate, they're less durable than a standard diesel, they're a pain in the a*se from a maintenance point of view, all in all they're just not really worth the bother You've got to bear in mind that very often these new fleets of swanky hybrids are encouraged by Government grants, local authority part-funding, some sort of fleet quota (TfL), or perceived good publicity for the route or its operator. If hybrids really were that good there'd be a lot more of them knocking about!

I'd have to say that I'd rather have a solid well-kept Stagecoach Olympian or B10M/PS than some iffy box-ticking exercise 'green' effort!

 

[142094]

Obviously the economics aren't very good, so that is why they're sitting unused on the apron at Walkergate (plus I agree, having a standardised fleet is always going to be better than having a lot of different types of vehicle).