The "bus culture" in your area

[geoffk]

A couple of topics under this general heading.

1. Do buses in your area sometimes have to reverse when in service, either to turn round at a terminus when empty or in the middle of the route with passengers on board?

I’ve come across both practices since moving to Devon and previously in West Yorkshire while living there but was told no reversals are allowed in Greater Manchester - whether by order of the Traffic Commissioner or because of a Union agreement I don’t know. What happens in other places?

2. What do passengers do when getting off the bus, i.e. do they leave their seats and get to the door before the bus stops or stay seated until it stops?

In Devon most do the latter, even when sitting upstairs. Young people in particular seem to do this and of course it increases dwell times at stops. Elsewhere I’ve always been used to getting up and being by the door before the bus stops and this has applied to all passengers except those with a disability. A recent visit to the Isle of Wight suggested they do the same there.

Buses generally have notices advising passengers to remain in their seats but this is really there to avoid a lawsuit if someone falls. Able-bodied passengers should be able to navigate handrails and stairs on a moving bus provided the driver doesn’t stop too quickly.

 

[Simon75]

1) 64 Hanley (Stoke-on-Trent) to Shrewsbury reverses with passengers on at Tern Hill, near Market Drayton
2) depends on on the stop. If it's a bus station people generally wait till it it stops

 

[Roger1973]

Reversing - there must be plenty at drive in / reverse out bus stations and a number on school premises, of course, but in terms of on route -

I can't think of many in the Berkshire patch, although there may be some that I'm not aware of. Reading Buses route 3 used to have a reverse at Arborfield Garrison (now known as Arborfield Green) either on terminating journeys from / to Reading or on through Reading - Wokingham journeys. The road now goes through the site, and I don't think this is needed any more.

London Buses route G1 which serves a dead end in Wickersley Road, Battersea (street view here) - this came up on another thready a little while ago, and is quite a rarity in London - it appears that it sets down and picks up at the one stop, so passengers travelling to that terminus presumably stay on the bus while it reverses in the dead end. (it's not part of London I know well, and I haven't been there.)

I have heard people say it's against the law for buses to reverse with passengers on, but I am fairly sure this is an urban myth. Some operators have a rule that buses don't reverse with passengers on, but there's a number of (especially rural) routes where it's inevitable, and the form for registering a bus service with the traffic commissioners asks whether there will be any reverse movements. (I think the local authority can object on road safety grounds, but I've never heard of this happening.)

Some operators, prior to deregulation, had an agreement with staff / union that buses would not reverse at terminus points, or that one-person-operated buses would not reverse at terminus points - with some operators their last crew operated route/s were because of this rather than being the busiest route/s. Some operators may have continued this agreement.

Standing up before getting off - would say most passengers do here.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

but was told no reversals are allowed in Greater Manchester

I've heard (never seen in person) that the 613 (Wigan local route) occasionally reverses near the stop "Bottling Wood, near Rosemary Crescent", allowing the bus to not need to go round the loop where it may possibly get stuck between cars parked on both sides.

Also every bus leaving Wigan bus station needs to reverse.

2. What do passengers do when getting off the bus, i.e. do they leave their seats and get to the door before the bus stops or stay seated until it stops?

I always get up before the bus stops, and there's always a lot of people that do.

 

[JD2168]

In Barnsley at Grimethorpe services 27, 27a & 27b have to reverse to serve the Nancy Crescent housing area. All services in Barnsley have to reverse as well when leaving the interchange.
The 95 & 95a in Sheffield have to reverse round a corner when arriving at Walkley Tinker Lane terminus. Most others that have spurs off the main route use a turning circle, roundabout or round a block of housing.

Most passengers in South Yorkshire get up to get off before the bus has stopped, this on both single deckers & double deckers on both decks.

 

[JKP]

The Peter Hogg 81 reverses twice on its circular route from Kelso. Once at Town Yetholm and again at Morebattle. Borders Buses 51 reverses at Oxton. Borders Buses 70 reverses at Hawthorn Road, Langlee. Travelsure 260 and Borders Buses 60 reverses at Allanton. All of these are in the middle of routes with passengers on board. Borders Buses 464 reverses at Lowick in Northumberland again mid route. The Borders Buses 61 also reverses at Oxton when empty.

Passengers tend to ring the bell and wait until the bus stops, though this does not seem to apply in town centres or if there is no marked bus stop where they speak to the driver as to where they want the bus to stop.

 

[Ianigsy]

The Leeds-Ilkley X84 has to reverse at Otley bus station, as did the 965/Otley Dash when it ran through to Menston.

I tend to find that people in my part of West Yorkshire tend to ring the bell and then start making their way to the front of the bus- perhaps there should be a question 2a about whether people use the bell! Certainly it was a culture change when I moved over from Merseyside to find that people actually used it.

A few years ago I did once witness an accident caused by an elderly lady staying in her seat until the very last moment. A few people had rung the bell to get off at a particular stop but the lady waited until the last one had passed her before getting up, however the driver hadn’t seen her because of the people getting off and started to pull away. The lady lost her balance because of the movement and fell against one of the poles and onto the floor.

 

[JKP]

Buses also have to reverse off the stances at Edinburgh, Galashiels and Jedburgh. At Edinburgh there is a traffic light system and at Galashiels there is a banksman during the day.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Haven't we done the "routes that have a reversing manoeuvre" before on this forum?

If you're counting bus stations, there are loads of sawtooth bus stations where the design mandates it. In West Yorkshire, it's virtually every bus station, not just Otley.

As for on the open road, again I'd suggest there's a lot. There is the urban myth that buses aren't supposed to reverse with passengers on, but that's bunkum. Once upon a time, in the 1970s typically, unions would insist on conductors being retained for certain reversing manoeuvres (which is why Northampton retained some Daimlers) but obviously long gone.

To be honest, in rural areas, I could probably think of a dozen examples of vehicles doing double runs that require a reverse.

 

[David Burrows]

Stagecoach service 3, Lincoln-Fiskerton has to reverse into a narrow lane in order to turn round at Fiskerton

 

[Simon75]

Haven't we done the "routes that have a reversing manoeuvre" before on this forum?

If you're counting bus stations, there are loads of sawtooth bus stations where the design mandates it. In West Yorkshire, it's virtually every bus station, not just Otley.

As for on the open road, again I'd suggest there's a lot. There is the urban myth that buses aren't supposed to reverse with passengers on, but that's bunkum. Once upon a time, in the 1970s typically, unions would insist on conductors being retained for certain reversing manoeuvres (which is why Northampton retained some Daimlers) but obviously long gone.

To be honest, in rural areas, I could probably think of a dozen examples of vehicles doing double runs that require a reverse.

Yes we have

TRIVIA: Reversing Buses

This afternoon I rode the splendidly quaint 576 Arriva route departing from Shrewsbury to Oswestry via a plethora of isolated villages every 2hr. The route had its scenic charms, but it was noteworthy to me as it reversed twice en route. I can think of plenty of routes that reverse once, but...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Adtrainsam]

From my experience, it seems to differ widely whether passengers stand up before the bus stops or remain seated until the doors open.

In the North East, it’s quite common for most people (including elderly/seniors) to stand up and walk to the front of the bus as soon as they ring the bell. Meanwhile, in Essex land - it seems to be the opposite where a lot of people wait until the bus has fully stopped.

 

[py_megapixel]

The temporary bus station in Stockport has a drive in / reverse out arrangement. It's dreadfully time-inefficient compared to what it replaced. Sadly it looks like the new Stockport Interchange will also consist mostly of bays which have to be reversed out of. The permanent bus station at Manchester Airport is also like this, though other Manchester bus stations mostly aren't.

In any case, that disproves the idea that buses are not allowed to reverse in service in Greater Manchester.

 

[markymark2000]

The temporary bus station in Stockport has a drive in / reverse out arrangement. It's dreadfully time-inefficient compared to what it replaced. Sadly it looks like the new Stockport Interchange will also consist mostly of bays which have to be reversed out of. The permanent bus station at Manchester Airport is also like this, though other Manchester bus stations mostly aren't.

In any case, that disproves the idea that buses are not allowed to reverse in service in Greater Manchester.

I take it that you're ignoring Wigan here, and Bolton. Ashton, Middleton, Trafford Centre and Rochdale are about 50/50 DIRO/DODO.

It may be time inefficient at times however it has many benefits such as it can save on space. And by keeping everyone in a single building, it means that you can decrease anti social behaviour and have retail units and travel information much more easily accessible. You increase safety too as people aren't crossing over the buswways as much (or only crossing at a few approved points, stands like Leigh people cross here, there and everywhere).

 

[RT4038]

Haven't we done the "routes that have a reversing manoeuvre" before on this forum?

If you're counting bus stations, there are loads of sawtooth bus stations where the design mandates it. In West Yorkshire, it's virtually every bus station, not just Otley.

As for on the open road, again I'd suggest there's a lot. There is the urban myth that buses aren't supposed to reverse with passengers on, but that's bunkum. Once upon a time, in the 1970s typically, unions would insist on conductors being retained for certain reversing manoeuvres (which is why Northampton retained some Daimlers) but obviously long gone.

To be honest, in rural areas, I could probably think of a dozen examples of vehicles doing double runs that require a reverse.

You may well remember that each individual reversing manoeuvre for one man buses had to be declared on the Road Service Licence (map and all) and authorised by the Traffic Commissioner (TC). Can't imagine that the TC or staff actually went to (m)any of these locations, unless presumably someone was kicking up a stink! Once one man operation OMO had become the norm (from about mid 70s onwards) this authorisation was more in the breach than the observation; mere mention on the form was all that was necessary.

 

[LiviCrazy]

A couple of topics under this general heading.

1. Do buses in your area sometimes have to reverse when in service, either to turn round at a terminus when empty or in the middle of the route with passengers on board?

I’ve come across both practices since moving to Devon and previously in West Yorkshire while living there but was told no reversals are allowed in Greater Manchester - whether by order of the Traffic Commissioner or because of a Union agreement I don’t know. What happens in other places?

2. What do passengers do when getting off the bus, i.e. do they leave their seats and get to the door before the bus stops or stay seated until it stops?

In Devon most do the latter, even when sitting upstairs. Young people in particular seem to do this and of course it increases dwell times at stops. Elsewhere I’ve always been used to getting up and being by the door before the bus stops and this has applied to all passengers except those with a disability. A recent visit to the Isle of Wight suggested they do the same there.

Buses generally have notices advising passengers to remain in their seats but this is really there to avoid a lawsuit if someone falls. Able-bodied passengers should be able to navigate handrails and stairs on a moving bus provided the driver doesn’t stop too quickly.

Interesting questions.

We’ve got a few routes in the West Lothian area that used to require reversing as they went into villages and turned, not sure how many there are now.

I can remember the difficulty in rules differences between First and Lothian when Lothian Country first came to the area. Particularly in Kirknewton if they met head on, if there wasn’t space for the First bus to reverse, the First driver would have to get out and guide the Lothian Country driver. On a Lothian Country last year, the driver had to get a passenger to guide him.

West Lothian has always been a get up in advance area, but like you I’ve noticed a lot of younger passengers waiting until it’s stopped. Until fairly recently, that would usually result in the bus going past the stop.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Interesting questions.

We’ve got a few routes in the West Lothian area that used to require reversing as they went into villages and turned, not sure how many there are now.

I can remember the difficulty in rules differences between First and Lothian when Lothian Country first came to the area. Particularly in Kirknewton if they met head on, if there wasn’t space for the First bus to reverse, the First driver would have to get out and guide the Lothian Country driver. On a Lothian Country last year, the driver had to get a passenger to guide him.

West Lothian has always been a get up in advance area, but like you I’ve noticed a lot of younger passengers waiting until it’s stopped. Until fairly recently, that would usually result in the bus going past the stop.

Both seem rather grey areas around here. The reversing thing is perhaps more a matter of what drivers are advised during training. While it's more dangerous to move a bus backwards rather than forwards, you can end up with a banksman (or offloaded passengers) sustaining injuries unnecessarily if guiding a driver when the area would have been otherwise deserted, so in practical terms it should be a matter of judgement according to conditions. But sometimes it's easier to tell/threaten new drivers to avoid reversing so they're never under pressure or tempted to try just out of convenience.
We definitely still have a get up in advance culture but this is gradually changing as passengers who are used to using other operators move into the Edinburgh & Lothians area. First used to have signs reminding passengers to remain seated until the bus stops, which I think was an initiative on First's nearby Glasgow services about 10 years ago, however it was widely ignored here. Must admit it greatly irritates me to see able bodied people remaining seated at the back of the top deck but I can understand the reasoning.
On the boarding side of things, only allowing passengers to board from recognised stops (ie when the bus is at the proper stop) is seemingly a culture unique to Edinburgh, and probably now West & East Lothian services too. Another practice in Edinburgh is pulling up to offer boarding from a stop even if the waiting passenger hasn't raised their hand but is simply hanging around looking gormless. This can catch me unawares in other cities where you need to run from the recognised stop down a queue of vehicles. Probably just me but bus boarding conventions in other places feels chaotic and verging on dangerous. And I'm able bodied with good vision (although I plead guilty on the gormless charge).

 

[TheSmiths82]

I’ve come across both practices since moving to Devon and previously in West Yorkshire while living there but was told no reversals are allowed in Greater Manchester - whether by order of the Traffic Commissioner or because of a Union agreement I don’t know. What happens in other places?

I can think of two Greater Manchester examples, one is the Trafford Centre although that station is owned by the Trafford Centre and I don't think it has anything at all to with TFGM. The temporally bus station at Stockport also has buses that need to reverse out.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Another practice in Edinburgh is pulling up to offer boarding from a stop even if the waiting passenger hasn't raised their hand but is simply hanging around looking gormless. This can catch me unawares in other cities where you need to run from the recognised stop down a queue of vehicles. Probably just me but bus boarding conventions in other places feels chaotic and verging on dangerous. And I'm able bodied with good vision (although I plead guilty on the gormless charge).

That there has always been a cultural difference between companies that has caused problems. I’ve had a few times where I was waiting for a First/McGills, have stood back to let the Lothian go past but they’ve stopped anyway, the following First/McGills I was aiming for thinks I’m getting on and went past. That’s caused arguments in the city centre, the city passengers all generally formally queue, but if catching any of the other companies you need to be near the stop and hail it.

 

[markymark2000]

2. What do passengers do when getting off the bus, i.e. do they leave their seats and get to the door before the bus stops or stay seated until it stops?

This is something that absolutely grinds my gears and seem to be a post Covid thing which has gotten worse with people not getting up off their seats until the bus has stopped and opened it's doors. I also think it's a big North/South divide. Up north, my experiences are that people are a lot more at the door and ready to alight before the bus even stops at the stop. Down south though, there seems to be a big thing about staying in your seat longer and it makes journeys so slow because of the dwell time.

 

[geoffk]

In any case, that disproves the idea that buses are not allowed to reverse in service in Greater Manchester.

Agreed, but I really meant to exclude bus stations! I know this happens a lot but I seem to recall attending a meeting years ago with a Traffic Commissioner who suggested that drive-in/reverse-out bus stations should be discouraged.

 

[ricoblade]

A couple of topics under this general heading.

1. Do buses in your area sometimes have to reverse when in service, either to turn round at a terminus when empty or in the middle of the route with passengers on board?

I’ve come across both practices since moving to Devon and previously in West Yorkshire while living there but was told no reversals are allowed in Greater Manchester - whether by order of the Traffic Commissioner or because of a Union agreement I don’t know. What happens in other places?

2. What do passengers do when getting off the bus, i.e. do they leave their seats and get to the door before the bus stops or stay seated until it stops?

In Devon most do the latter, even when sitting upstairs. Young people in particular seem to do this and of course it increases dwell times at stops. Elsewhere I’ve always been used to getting up and being by the door before the bus stops and this has applied to all passengers except those with a disability. A recent visit to the Isle of Wight suggested they do the same there.

Buses generally have notices advising passengers to remain in their seats but this is really there to avoid a lawsuit if someone falls. Able-bodied passengers should be able to navigate handrails and stairs on a moving bus provided the driver doesn’t stop too quickly.

Here in North Notts/South Yorks it's mainly sit until stopped. I can understand that with people with mobility issues but it apples to da yoof too. I've always got up ready to disembark from my 2p Sheffield days!

 

[Hophead]

I also think it's a big North/South divide. Up north, my experiences are that people are a lot more at the door and ready to alight before the bus even stops at the stop. Down south though, there seems to be a big thing about staying in your seat longer and it makes journeys so slow because of the dwell time.

Not something I've ever noticed. What has become commonplace, however, is not moving off until passengers have taken a seat - this particularly applies to the elderly or unsteady (who obviously form a large proportion of the middle of the day business).

 

[Statto]

I can think of two Greater Manchester examples, one is the Trafford Centre although that station is owned by the Trafford Centre and I don't think it has anything at all to with TFGM. The temporally bus station at Stockport also has buses that need to reverse out.

Yep, Bolton interchange, & Wigan bus station are now drive in, reverse out bus stations.

I prefer drive in, reverse out type of bus stations, as the passenger concourse is on one level, making it easier to change buses, & the Wigan & Bolton bus stations are fully undercover for passengers too.

Must admit i ring the bell everytime i want to get off the bus, even when the bus is arriving at a terminus.

 

[py_megapixel]

This is something that absolutely grinds my gears and seem to be a post Covid thing which has gotten worse with people not getting up off their seats until the bus has stopped and opened it's doors. I also think it's a big North/South divide. Up north, my experiences are that people are a lot more at the door and ready to alight before the bus even stops at the stop. Down south though, there seems to be a big thing about staying in your seat longer and it makes journeys so slow because of the dwell time.

Arriva used to display signs asking passengers to remain seated until the bus had stopped. In my experience this was often ignored.

 

[GusB]

Agreed, but I really meant to exclude bus stations! I know this happens a lot but I seem to recall attending a meeting years ago with a Traffic Commissioner who suggested that drive-in/reverse-out bus stations should be discouraged.

I think we can agree that drive-in, reverse out bus stations can be excluded from the thread, considering that their use is not out of the ordinary. Otherwise we're going to get a load of examples!

Around here, people move forward as the bus approaches their stop, after ringing the bell. In days gone by, simply leaving your seat and moving forward was the signal that you wished to alight and the bell was unnecessary; indeed, anyone who did use the bell was regarded as being a bit strange!

 

[mangad]

A couple of topics under this general heading.

1. Do buses in your area sometimes have to reverse when in service, either to turn round at a terminus when empty or in the middle of the route with passengers on board?

I’ve come across both practices since moving to Devon and previously in West Yorkshire while living there but was told no reversals are allowed in Greater Manchester - whether by order of the Traffic Commissioner or because of a Union agreement I don’t know. What happens in other places?

There are definitely routes in Greater Manchester where the bus has to reverse at the end that are outside a bus station.

The 385 (Stockport to Mellor), terminates on Mellor, Shiloh Road, close to the border with Derbyshire. The bus reverses into an unmarked layby, lets off any remaining passengers, and then heads back in the previous direction. Apparently in the 1980s, GM Buses would reverse at the nearby Shiloh Road/Moor End Road junction instead.

Added: this photograph shows a 1980s GM Buses 363 service at the junction, and it looks like it's reversing.

 

[WibbleWobble]

To add to the Greater Manchester list, the old Blue Bus 547/548 had a reversing manoeuvre in the middle of Daisy Hill.

 

[Deerfold]

In West Yorkshire, the 586 (formerly 560) terminates in the hamlet of Commons and does a "turn in the road". commonly known as a three point turn. It typically takes 5 or 7 points, though.

The last (2250) journey on the old 527 Halifax - Mill Bank - Rochdale didn't serve Rochdale, but reversed down one of a number of lanes at Gig Mill and went to Ripponden before returning to Halifax as a 528. I leaned out of the door helping guide drivers a few times. Some of the less confident drivers went another half mile or so and turned round in a pub car park instead.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Here people will generally stand up and head to the front before the bus stops. Most of the buses are single deckers.

If I’m upstairs I’ll wait at the top of the stairs and wait for the bus to stop. I find it a lot harder to get down the straight staircases when the bus is moving, there’s less to brace yourself against compared to the spiral staircases of old.