The Big Lemon

[MotCO]

The Argus in Brighton has reported that The Big Lemon has had problems fulfilling its scheduled work in Brighton due to problems with suppliers. The Big Lemon favours EVs or vehices powered by alternative fuels, but has had to procur 6 diesel buses to maintain its timetable using BSIP funding. Brighton Council is also retendering some of its services early.

I hope that these problems are only temporary.

Bus company has been 'failing badly' with services cancelled or late

There have been issues with bus services provided by The Big Lemon in Brighton and Hove.

www.theargus.co.uk

Brighton and Hove City Council has stepped in to help The Big Lemon after cancellations and late running services.


Councillor Trevor Muten, cabinet member for transport, parking and public realm, said the services provided by the bus company are a “lifeline” that cannot be allowed to fail.


He said the council will give The Big Lemon, which also operates in Bristol and Bath, more funding to help with the issues while also starting a retendering process for the routes.
Tom Druitt, chief executive of The Big Lemon, said the company, which provides services with electric buses, had been experiencing issues with one of its suppliers resulting in a shortage of vehicles.


He said the company has had to bring in six more vehicles at its own expense.


Colin Morris, The Big Lemon’s general manager, said the company has taken a temporary measure to reintroduce diesel buses back into service.

The Big Lemon runs the 16/16B Hangleton to Portslade, 47/47A Hangleton to East Saltdean and the 52/52A Patcham to Woodingdean.


“We’ve heard from residents that the service provided by The Big Lemon and subsidised by the council has failed badly over recent months,” Cllr Muten said.


“These services are very important to the communities they serve, helping to link people with friends, family, workplaces as well as shops, GP surgeries, schools and hospitals, which is why we’ve now stepped in.

“They’re a lifeline we cannot allow to fail.


“Problems with The Big Lemon’s fleet have caused cancellations and late running buses, especially in the evening. But we believe we’ve found a solution which will mean the return of good, reliable services.


“With agreement from the Department for Transport, we’re going to be using funding from our Bus Service Improvement Plan to provide additional funding to The Big Lemon so that they can address their failures in service. At the same time, we will get underway a retendering of this contract which will take place early next year.”

Mr Druitt said the company is “fully engaged” with the upcoming retendering process and looks forward to the opportunity to "continue providing sustainable transport options for Brighton and Hove".

“At The Big Lemon, we are committed to providing sustainable and innovative public transport solutions,” he said.


“In 2022, we were proud to be the first independent operator in the UK to run all our services with electric buses, showcasing our dedication to environmentally friendly transport.


“Unfortunately, this year we have encountered significant challenges due to issues with one of our key suppliers.


“These issues have resulted in a shortage of vehicles, which has unfortunately impacted the reliability of our services.


“Despite these difficulties, we have taken all the steps we can to address the situation, including bringing in six additional vehicles at our own expense. However, the costs of running these services have exceeded £400,000 beyond the funding provided by the council since April 2023.


“This level of expenditure is unsustainable for a community-focused organisation like ours, so we have presented the council with a solution that will help us remove our reliance on the problematic supplier and restore reliable services for our passengers.

“We remain committed to working closely with the council and our partners to ensure that we continue to serve the community effectively, and we welcome the additional funding that will help us deliver the service our passengers deserve.”

 

[stadler]

Compass Bus are taking back all of the Brighton routes from the Big Lemon on the 31st of March next month. Every route in Brighton that the Big Lemon run is being taken over by them. Compass Bus have ordered ten new E200MMC for these services. Compass Bus previously ran these Brighton routes up until 2017 when the Big Lemon then took over. So it is just a return back to the old operator.

Nothing is publicly released yet but i have this information from a friend who is one of the Compass Bus managers and the new contracts have only just been awarded.

This means that the Big Lemon will no longer have any public bus routes in the Brighton area. They will still have their closed door private contracts for Legal & General and Brighton College that they run. They will also still have their Lewes / Uckfield / Heathfield / Hailsham area school bus routes (what was previously Seaford & District services) which will continue to run. The only ordinary public bus routes will be the Bath and Bristol area services.

I guess that will mean the Big Lemon will have a lot of spare vehicles. Presumably many will transfer to the Bath and Bristol operation. My guess is that they will be used to get rid of the remaining diesel vehicles there.

I also wonder if the Big Lemon will last much longer in the Sussex area without the Brighton routes. They still have the private contracts but the public bus routes was their main operation. I would not be surprised if they eventually close down that part and focus just on the Bath and Bristol operation.

 

[scosutsut]

Reading between the lines it looks like either Switch/Optare, or someone that's part of that supply chain they are having issues with. 6 Solo EVs that appear to be VOR for between a month and three if bustimes.org data is reliable.

 

[stadler]

Reading between the lines it looks like either Switch/Optare, or someone that's part of that supply chain they are having issues with. 6 Solo EVs that appear to be VOR for between a month and three if bustimes.org data is reliable.

Yes if you go past their Brighton depot they have dozens of buses (mostly Optare electric ones) that seem to have issues. Many have parts stripped off and have been sat in the same place for months. The batch of YJ12 vehicles seems to be particularly problematic. Two of their Optare Solo SR EV buses (YJ12GWV and YJ12GWW) have been out of use for over a year. Also out of their three Optare Versa EV buses (YJ12 GWX and YJ12 GWY and YJ12 GWZ) only one seems to actually be in working condition.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Yes if you go past their Brighton depot they have dozens of buses (mostly Optare electric ones) that seem to have issues. Many have parts stripped off and have been sat in the same place for months. The batch of YJ12 vehicles seems to be particularly problematic. Two of their Optare Solo SR EV buses (YJ12GWV and YJ12GWW) have been out of use for over a year. Also out of their three Optare Versa EV buses (YJ12 GWX and YJ12 GWY and YJ12 GWZ) only one seems to actually be in working condition.

They have done well to last 12 years which is top end for diesel solos and Versas let alone old gen EVs.

 

[Park47515]

Compass Bus are taking back all of the Brighton routes from the Big Lemon on the 31st of March next month. Every route in Brighton that the Big Lemon run is being taken over by them. Compass Bus have ordered ten new E200MMC for these services. Compass Bus previously ran these Brighton routes up until 2017 when the Big Lemon then took over. So it is just a return back to the old operator.

Nothing is publicly released yet but i have this information from a friend who is one of the Compass Bus managers and the new contracts have only just been awarded.

This means that the Big Lemon will no longer have any public bus routes in the Brighton area. They will still have their closed door private contracts for Legal & General and Brighton College that they run. They will also still have their Lewes / Uckfield / Heathfield / Hailsham area school bus routes (what was previously Seaford & District services) which will continue to run. The only ordinary public bus routes will be the Bath and Bristol area services.

I guess that will mean the Big Lemon will have a lot of spare vehicles. Presumably many will transfer to the Bath and Bristol operation. My guess is that they will be used to get rid of the remaining diesel vehicles there.

I also wonder if the Big Lemon will last much longer in the Sussex area without the Brighton routes. They still have the private contracts but the public bus routes was their main operation. I would not be surprised if they eventually close down that part and focus just on the Bath and Bristol operation.

They have indeed lost the tender to Compass. As per the attached, the contract was signed on Thursday, and is a 4 year contract with a 4 year extension according to the link below https://www.contractsfinder.service...df-bba9-89fffd64d30f?origin=SearchResults&p=1

 

[ChrisPJ]

Have they still got the Higer Steed buses?

 

[stadler]

Have they still got the Higer Steed buses?

Yes they still have all four of them. They are at their Brighton depot. They are all fully operational and in daily use.

 

[Bornin1980s]

They have done well to last 12 years which is top end for diesel solos and Versas let alone old gen EVs.

There are 04 registered diesel Solos in Devon. That's over 20 years.

 

[Leedsbusman]

There are 04 registered diesel Solos in Devon. That's over 20 years.

Indeed - but plenty younger have gone elsewhere.

 

[Park47515]

Said contract is being challenged by the Big lemon, as compass arent going to be running ev buses according to the Brighton Argus ( oddly behind a pay wall for me today)

 

[Edvid]

Here's the full article:

Bus company brings in lawyers as it is 'ditched' by council

The Big Lemon has accused Brighton and Hove City Council of “ditching” its zero-emission fleet for a diesel alternative

www.theargus.co.uk

A troubled zero-emission bus company has been axed by the council in favour of a diesel alternative.

The Big Lemon has instructed solicitors over Brighton and Hove City Council's decision to end its contract and award it to Compass Travel instead.

The eco-friendly company has accused the council of refusing to answer questions about the selection process.

Chief executive Tom Druitt criticised the authority for picking a company he claimed was at odds with its carbon net zero goal for 2030 - adding there was confusion about whether Compass would phase out its diesel vehicles as part of the newly-awarded contract.

Ron Tanner, chairman of the company board, added: "The council has said that the proposed solution includes a plan to phase out petrol/diesel vehicles over the course of the contract," he said.

"But there is no evidence this plan exists and the council now refuses to confirm whether it does or not. What has the council got to hide?”

But the council claimed it had "carried out a full and fair procurement process" and Compass would be deploying new buses fitted with technology "designed to save fuel and significantly reduce emissions".

City councillor Trevor Muten, who is the cabinet member for transport, said: "We understand that bidders who did not succeed in the procurement process will be disappointed, but the council is obliged to award the contract to the most economically advantageous tender."

The council had to step in to help The Big Lemon last year after cancellations and late running services left residents feeling the company had “failed” them.

It pumped extra funding into the business, which runs the 16/16B Hangleton to Portslade, 47/47A Hangleton to East Saltdean and the 52/52A Patcham to Woodingdean, to help with the issues.

These were due to problems with one of the company’s suppliers, which led to a shortage of vehicles.

A retendering process for the routes was also launched at the same time.

The contract for The Big Lemon, which runs a fleet largely made up of electric buses, will end in March.

Mr Tanner, who has followed The Big Lemon from its start in 2006 and who is now chairman of the board representing community shareholders, shared what he saw as the company's successes.

He said: “For nearly eight years Brighton and Hove has had a zero-emission bus service that is run by the community for the community.

“The Big Lemon is unique in its approach, prioritising sustainability and community involvement above maximising profits for shareholders and since it started operating these routes in 2017.

“It has made the service more sustainable and doubled the number of passengers using the services, reducing the number of car journeys into the city and all the pollution and congestion that comes from that.

"From April, the city will take a backward step, reverting to diesel buses."

Oliver Wright, a partner at the law firm Broadfield, which is representing The Big Lemon, said: “The Big Lemon has operated six vital bus routes in Brighton for the past five years alongside routes in Bath and Bristol.

"It is a community interest company, focused on providing a service to the city while all of the time working with Brighton and Hove City Council towards achieving its ambitious net zero goals.

“All The Big Lemon asks is that the bidding process be open and fair.

"The council still has questions to answer over whether or not there is a plan which complies with the tender specification.

"The contract gives Brighton and Hove City Council the option to change its mind and to allow Big Lemon to continue to operate emission-free buses. We would urge them to do so.”

Trevor Muten's response in full​

“We recognise that these services are very important to the communities they serve, helping to link people with friends, family, workplaces as well as shops, GP surgeries, schools and hospitals. As such, it is vital they remain in place.

“At a time when we are facing significant financial challenges it is also important any contract not only provides a reliable service, but also offers value for money and is financially sustainable.

“We have carried out a full and fair procurement process to find an operator that is best able to match these requirements and have identified the winning bidder as Compass Travel Ltd.

“Contracts are in the process of being drawn up and we cannot share further details at this commercially sensitive stage.

“We know it is important to residents that these routes are protected and remain in place for those who rely on them.

“We understand that bidders who did not succeed in the procurement process will be disappointed, but the council is obliged to award the contract to the most economically advantageous tender.

“The successful operator will be deploying new buses fitted with Euro 6 technology designed to save fuel and significantly reduce emissions. This will provide confidence and consistency our city needs for cleaner air quality and low carbon emissions within a reliable service.

“The council also continues to support the transition to zero emissions vehicles and is allocating almost £3M of the government’s Zebra2 grant fund, together with £550,000 from the council’s own resources, to the transition to zero emissions fleets in Brighton & Hove.”

 

[stadler]

Said contract is being challenged by the Big lemon, as compass arent going to be running ev buses according to the Brighton Argus ( oddly behind a pay wall for me today)

Here's the full article:

Bus company brings in lawyers as it is 'ditched' by council

The Big Lemon has accused Brighton and Hove City Council of “ditching” its zero-emission fleet for a diesel alternative

www.theargus.co.uk

This is the most ridiculous legal action i have seen. I think the Big Lemon are just annoyed that they lost all of the contracts and are having a tantrum and trying everything they can to keep them. Reminds me of when Virgin Trains lost the franchise to First Group and Richard Branson had a tantrum and decided to take legal action.

There is no way this legal action will be successful. Big Lemon have chosen to operate electric buses. Using electric buses is not a requirement of these council contracts. It is also worth noting that the Big Lemon have had diesel buses in use in Brighton for years as their electric buses keep failing. On some days more than half their buses on the road have been diesel. So using diesel buses on these contracts is something that they very regularly do themselves. Such a ridiculous waste of money for them to try legal action.

The new buses that Compass Bus will use will be diesel E200MMC buses. They have ordered ten of these brand new buses for the contract. They are the same vehicle type that Compass Bus already use on most of their existing routes in the area.

 

[Mark L]

This is the most ridiculous legal action i have seen. I think the Big Lemon are just annoyed that they lost all of the contracts and are having a tantrum and trying everything they can to keep them. Reminds me of when Virgin Trains lost the franchise to First Group and Richard Branson had a tantrum and decided to take legal action.

There is no way this legal action will be successful. Big Lemon have chosen to operate electric buses. Using electric buses is not a requirement of these council contracts. It is also worth noting that the Big Lemon have had diesel buses in use in Brighton for years as their electric buses keep failing. On some days more than half their buses on the road have been diesel. So using diesel buses on these contracts is something that they very regularly do themselves. Such a ridiculous waste of money for them to try legal action.

The new buses that Compass Bus will use will be diesel E200MMC buses. They have ordered ten of these brand new buses for the contract. They are the same vehicle type that Compass Bus already use on most of their existing routes in the area.

…and the Compass Bus vehicles will be Euro VI unlike the decidedly past the first flush of youth Enviro 200s used by the Big Lemon.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is the most ridiculous legal action i have seen. I think the Big Lemon are just annoyed that they lost all of the contracts and are having a tantrum and trying everything they can to keep them. Reminds me of when Virgin Trains lost the franchise to First Group and Richard Branson had a tantrum and decided to take legal action.

There is no way this legal action will be successful. Big Lemon have chosen to operate electric buses. Using electric buses is not a requirement of these council contracts. It is also worth noting that the Big Lemon have had diesel buses in use in Brighton for years as their electric buses keep failing. On some days more than half their buses on the road have been diesel. So using diesel buses on these contracts is something that they very regularly do themselves. Such a ridiculous waste of money for them to try legal action.

The new buses that Compass Bus will use will be diesel E200MMC buses. They have ordered ten of these brand new buses for the contract. They are the same vehicle type that Compass Bus already use on most of their existing routes in the area.

Interesting you mention Virgin and First Group. Remember that was an instance when the procurement exercise WAS flawed and the legal challenge upheld.

Let's look at things objectively. This is a significant element of Big Lemon's business. It may even be an existential threat so they are going to explore every avenue - I think that's understandable. How ridiculous it is will be determined by legal judgement though. If B&H council have done a good job with the procurement, then there will be no case to answer. If it's flawed, then if it's on a technicality, that's how the law works. We shall see if there is a case to answer.

However, the first rule of responding to public sector procurement is to answer the question as it is asked. You are evaluated on commercial (not just price but other areas such as payment terms, insurances etc), technical (operational generally) and social value according to scores/weighting that is declared at the start of the process. So if Big Lemon have based a response on stuff in the wider realm and not in the tender, that is a problem for them.

 

[Mark L]

Interesting you mention Virgin and First Group. Remember that was an instance when the procurement exercise WAS flawed and the legal challenge upheld.

Let's look at things objectively. This is a significant element of Big Lemon's business. It may even be an existential threat so they are going to explore every avenue - I think that's understandable. How ridiculous it is will be determined by legal judgement though. If B&H council have done a good job with the procurement, then there will be no case to answer. If it's flawed, then if it's on a technicality, that's how the law works. We shall see if there is a case to answer.

However, the first rule of responding to public sector procurement is to answer the question as it is asked. You are evaluated on commercial (not just price but other areas such as payment terms, insurances etc), technical (operational generally) and social value according to scores/weighting that is declared at the start of the process. So if Big Lemon have based a response on stuff in the wider realm and not in the tender, that is a problem for them.

…and the evaluation criteria (along with their weighting) will have been shared with all bidders. There is a mandatory “stand still” period after a decision to award a public sector contract (but before completion) in which unsuccessful bidders can challenge the process. I’m not sighted in the timetable for this procurement but am assuming that’s where we are currently.

 

[Hophead]

Compass themselves sought legal advice after losing these routes to The Big Lemon in the first place. I don’t think things went any further than that and it's likely that, after a few letters have gone to and fro, we'll have the same outcome this time.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Who's currently operating the service in question?

 

[stadler]

Who's currently operating the service in question?

They are all operated by the Big Lemon currently. So they are loosing them. Compass Bus operated them until 2017 and then the Big Lemon took over. Compass Bus have now won back all these contracts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

…and the evaluation criteria (along with their weighting) will have been shared with all bidders. There is a mandatory “stand still” period after a decision to award a public sector contract (but before completion) in which unsuccessful bidders can challenge the process. I’m not sighted in the timetable for this procurement but am assuming that’s where we are currently.

Absolutely, so everyone knows what they are being judged against. More importantly, you don't get any scores/recognition for things you put in that aren't in the spec.

I'd assumed that the ten day mandatory standstill period had been completed, hence confirmation of the award to Compass, and that's why Big Lemon are pursuing a legal route.

 

[MotCO]

Presumably the issue pivots on whether or not the tender asked for non-diesel buses. If it was not stated as such, and Compass submitted a bid which was compliant, then any legal challenge should fail.

 

[Ghostbus]

What happened to using cooking oil? That's my last impression of what made this CIC unique. Electric buses are hardly innovative now.

 

[stadler]

What happened to using cooking oil? That's my last impression of what made this CIC unique. Electric buses are hardly innovative now.

They stopped using cooking oil years ago. It is all just electric or normal diesel now. I have a feeling it might be to do with the fact that newer diesel buses have engines which do not handle cooking oil well. When they first started all of their buses were very old cheap second hand vehicles from the 1990s (and even a couple from the 1980s too) with very old engines. I understand these older engines can work with cooking oil much easier. Putting used cooking oil in newer diesel buses is much harder and less successful.

 

[sir_gummerz]

Just to add in with some personal experience. The 515 in south bristol had seen a notable degradation in service quality over the last few months. Services used to mostly run on time, but now don't. Also they are using fiat "breadvans" regularly on the service. They don't even have stop buttons so you have to shout to the driver when you want to get off. They tired to introduce electric buses but haven't seen them in a few months now.

I get firstbus every day to work, and TBL every so often for local trips. used to feel like a nice little break from city buses (drivers not behind a screen, regular punters know each other ect) but now more feels like a shoddy operation in comparison. They also don't have live tracking on many of there buses, and my local bus stops departure screen dosent actually show the 515 at all despite it stoping there

I like the idea of TBL, and feel bad trashing them, but the service just isn't great from a user's perspective

 

[borage]

They stopped using cooking oil years ago. It is all just electric or normal diesel now. I have a feeling it might be to do with the fact that newer diesel buses have engines which do not handle cooking oil well. When they first started all of their buses were very old cheap second hand vehicles from the 1990s (and even a couple from the 1980s too) with very old engines. I understand these older engines can work with cooking oil much easier. Putting used cooking oil in newer diesel buses is much harder and less successful.

Another factor was a lack of suppliers able to supply small-enough quantities of biodiesel:

And after using biodiesel from recycled waste cooking oil to power our buses and coaches for over ten years, last year that became no longer possible due to all the Sussex suppliers no longer supplying, and our London supplier selling out to a Liverpool-based one who only delivers in 33,000 litre batches. As (i) we have nowhere to store such large quantities, (ii) there seem to be no suppliers left who can supply smaller quantities, and (iii) most vehicles are no longer able to run on it due to to modern fuel-injection methods; we’ve had to accept that the use of biodiesel is no longer an option for us.

 

[ACBest]

What happened to using cooking oil? That's my last impression of what made this CIC unique. Electric buses are hardly innovative now.

I seem to remember reading that their unique selling point these days is that some/all (unsure which!) of their EV charging infrastructure is solar powered from solar panels on the roof of their depot. Open to correction on this, but I think that’s it!

 

[Hophead]

And....... as expected, Big Lemon have informed the public via Facebook that Compass will be operating the routes from 31st March.

 

[nick291]

And....... as expected, Big Lemon have informed the public via Facebook that Compass will be operating the routes from 31st March.

With this, they will have NO services left in the Brighton and Hove area if what I am looking at on Bus Times is to be believed. Can't comment on their Bristol stuff as I only tend to use First or Stagecoach. Can't see it lasting much longer if I'm honest.

 

[stadler]

With this, they will have NO services left in the Brighton and Hove area if what I am looking at on Bus Times is to be believed. Can't comment on their Bristol stuff as I only tend to use First or Stagecoach. Can't see it lasting much longer if I'm honest.

Yes that is correct. Big Lemon will have no public services left in the Brighton area. Compass Bus have won all of them. They will still have a couple private contracts. They have their Brighton City College routes and their Legal & General routes. They will also have their Seaford & District school bus routes. But their only ordinary public routes will be their Bath and Bristol ones.

 

[nick291]

Yes that is correct. Big Lemon will have no public services left in the Brighton area. Compass Bus have won all of them. They will still have a couple private contracts. They have their Brighton City College routes and their Legal & General routes. They will also have their Seaford & District school bus routes. But their only ordinary public routes will be their Bath and Bristol ones.

I see, I thought that might have been the case. Only buses of theirs I see around Bristol now are the Peugeot/Mellor minis for it's council tendered routes. All the E200's inherited from CT Plus/Transpora seem to operate out of JVA Sunseeker Tours' depot in Radstock now.