The 5AT project

[tranzitjim]

Today I was doing a bing.com search for locomotive manufacturers, and came across something very interesting.


A group wants to manufactuer a 'modern steam locomotive' in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5AT_Advanced_Technology_Steam_Locomotive


Naturally, I would love a chance to talk about this project.

How many other projects like this are known about?

Is there a good market for a modern 'high speed' steam locomotive in the UK, Australia, or in deed Europe, USA or elsewhere in the world?

What are the changes of this project getting up?

 

[sprinterguy]

As stated on both Wikipedia and their own website, this project was suspended in 2012:

http://www.5at.co.uk/
As noted elsewhere on this website, the 5AT Project was suspended in 2012.

Since then the members of the 5AT team have regrouped under the banner of The Advanced Steam Traction Trust, through which they will transfer the knowledge and expertise gained from the 5AT Project to enhance the performance and reliability of heritage and new-build steam locomotives and/or to reduce their operating and maintenance costs.

I'm not aware of there being another group in the UK having thoughts along a similar line. Although, if anyone has £10 million handy, then they can feel free to do so.

 

[tranzitjim]

Would the 5AT crowd go back to it again if they had a pledge of 10 M pounds?

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Is there a good market for a modern 'high speed' steam locomotive in the UK, Australia, or in deed Europe, USA or elsewhere in the world?

Presumably you mean for heritage/charter purposes? Not convinced, even for that niche market, as many people would rather see a new build of an old design rather than something new-fangled.

The problems with using even new improved steam traction for anything other than charters are both numerous and enormous...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I've seen the 5AT project page before aswell. But I think there's still a speed restriction of 90mph for steam in the UK.
For example a few current steam engines, most notably A4s can easily reach speeds of over 100mph but never do.
Also as far as steam trains for tourists are concerned it may be cheaper using an old loco.

Before the 1955 modernisation plan British Rail had just built lots of "standard" steam locomotives which were due to last until 2000. But most were scrapped because of a pro diesel agenda. So new trains with a shorter lifespan were ordered.

Steam has very good traction and can be powered by oil aswell as coal. I've even heard of electric steam engines in Switzerland.

But the big problem with steam is that it can't be switched on and off like a diesel can be.

 

[Chris125]

I've seen the 5AT project page before aswell. But I think there's still a speed restriction of 90mph for steam in the UK.

The limit remains at 75mph.

 

[MarkyT]

The limit remains at 75mph.

True in general for steam but there was special authorisation for the A4-hauled "Ebor Streak" excursion and some associated proving runs just before it to exceed 75mph in 2013.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are big risks with new designs, especially if trying to introduce a lot of new features simultaneously. Successful design series like the LNER pacifics developed and evolved by slowly tweaking one or two values and design features on each sequential production batch over decades rather than taking a revolutionary blank sheet approach, and that was with the benefit of an entire engineering department, and a large total fleet to cover any problems.

A modern small niche organisation producing a very specialist one-off like the 5AT proposal could find itself in a very difficult position financially if some advanced feature put their only locomotive out of action for an extended period, depriving them of railtour income at the same time as requiring great expense for repairs and even perhaps partial redesign to overcome a problem. The A1 Locomotive Trust faced some problems and time out of traffic with Tornado's boiler, an all steel design somewhat unfamiliar to the UK. Otherwise the A1 took a very conservative approach in general to adopting new design features in a copy of what was known to be one of Britains's most reliable and economical express passenger locomotives with the lowest maintenance overhead.

I'm not saying the 5AT or similar is an impossible dream, but it really needs to be a hobby project backed by a some very wealthy enthusiasts who can stomach a total loss if the resultant very high performance machine did not come up to expectations.

 

[alexl92]

As I mentioned on another thread, the images they are using on their website are of a very Americanised locomotive. I genuinely don't think the enthusiast community in the UK would take to that, no matter how impressive. We'd rather see the Duke reach it's full potential, or the P2, or possibly in future the W1 4-6-4 recreated and developed.

Plus, £10m is a P2 or a Patriot (or whatever) and goodness knows how many restorations and overhauls or miles of track reopened...

 

[21C101]

The only way I think you could get enthusiasm for a modern steam loco is to build a leader with many modern features under the lid and the original issues solved.

 

[MarkyT]

As I mentioned on another thread, the images they are using on their website are of a very Americanised locomotive. I genuinely don't think the enthusiast community in the UK would take to that, no matter how impressive. We'd rather see the Duke reach it's full potential, or the P2, or possibly in future the W1 4-6-4 recreated and developed.

One could also argue the BR standards also departed from traditional UK designs in providing much easier access to moving parts and other servicing points that were respectably covered up in traditional big four designs and their Victorian predecessors, and Bullied also moved in that direction adopting 'American looking' solid wheels (that definitely weren't Boxpoks!).

The A4 and the streamlined Stanier pacifics of the 1930s however looked like nothing ever seen before, yet today remain some of the most memorable images of steam and speed!

I think you may have a point there though that although such a radical new design would still be a living breathing steam 'creature', it could lack some of the nostalgia value simply by being so different.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The only way I think you could get enthusiasm for a modern steam loco is to build a leader with many modern features under the lid and the original issues solved.

A very interesting idea and perhaps it could have had some serious potential if developed earlier or if steam had continued a little longer. The leader was however, how can I put this delicately, not exactly well endowed in the beauty stakes!

 

[dgl]

Well they did an electrically controlled steam engine on scrapheap challenge once , so if a few people can make a new type of steam engine in less than 24hrs then designing a modern steamie should not be too difficult, it would only really be building it that would be the real expense.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

Want a bit of info on the progress of "New" Steam locos

http://newbuildsteam.com/

 

[Spamcan81]

True in general for steam but there was special authorisation for the A4-hauled "Ebor Streak" excursion and some associated proving runs just before it to exceed 75mph in 2013.

A total of three tours hauled by 4464 were authorised for 90mph running. The Ebor Streak, The Tyne Tees Streak and The Capital Streak.

 

[SWTH]

A new build doesn't have to look radically different, but a new steam locomotive incorporating modern principles has the major advantage of not being hamstrung by existing design weaknesses. To take 3450, the modified SAR Cl. 26 as an example, despite being capable of producing vast amounts of power (over 4,000ihp) whilst using less coal and water than a 25NC, it suffered from a number of inherent issues with the basic 25NC design such as poor adhesion - indeed, the extra power available thanks to the modifications (and the ability to sustain higher steaming rates for longer) exacerbated the issue.

A modern locomotive could be packaged as a 'classic' design, but I don't see any reason not to include such modernities as BFB wheels, Lempor exhaust, roller bearings throughout, GPCS etc. If you really wanted to hide everything away, a straight copy of the Southern Railway 'West Country/Battle of Britain' 4-6-2's air-smoothed casing would do a good job of hiding feedwater heaters etc.

 

[MarkyT]

A modern locomotive could be packaged as a 'classic' design, but I don't see any reason not to include such modernities as BFB wheels, Lempor exhaust, roller bearings throughout, GPCS etc. If you really wanted to hide everything away, a straight copy of the Southern Railway 'West Country/Battle of Britain' 4-6-2's air-smoothed casing would do a good job of hiding feedwater heaters etc.

Or a Gresley or Stanier style streamline casing, or maybe something new, inspired by classic US streamliners! On reflection the 5AT as designed is very purposeful and functional with every feature present for a good reason, the front fairing, bullet nose on the smokebox and smoke deflector system, the raked cab front all desirable for efficient high speed running. The enormous tender is required for range on the modern railway. The fully exposed driving wheels and motion, the high running board and the boiler design and shape echo the BR standard family lineage, which itself was influenced by American and European trends. I think it reflects some later German or French designs more than American locomotives, and feel at full tilt on the mainline would have been a formidable sight.

 

[jopsuk]

Steam is though fundamentally inefficient compared to other power sources. Coal has roughly half the energy density of diesel, with a similar bulk density.

 

[MarkyT]

Steam is though fundamentally inefficient compared to other power sources. Coal has roughly half the energy density of diesel, with a similar bulk density.

I don't think anyone proposed a realistic modern steam competitor for mainstream express haulage on non electrified lines in the UK. The aim was always to produce something unique for mainline railtours that would preserve the attraction of real steam haulage in the most modern, efficient and high performance form possible, an engine with the pace and range to keep up and going easily amongst the flow of regular traffic. The 5AT was proposed to be oil fired with 'gas oil' not coal, for ease of refueling across the network. Gas Oil is the same as 'red diesel' and heating oil and is the stuff used routinely by diesel traction across the railway, hence the 5AT could refuel at any modern rail fuelling point.

 

[SWTH]

Or a Gresley or Stanier style streamline casing

The advantage of the Bulleid design is that it was partially designed as a practical answer to cleaning - the idea being to be able to drive a loco straight through a carriage washing plant. The casings on an A4 or a Duchess also follow the profile of the upper half of the boiler, making it more difficult to conceal a top-mounted pre-heater or other equipment.

Steam is though fundamentally inefficient compared to other power sources. Coal has roughly half the energy density of diesel, with a similar bulk density.

But it also has half the cost. That's why the FR and the VoR switched from oil back to coal from the mid-2000's onwards.

The 5AT was proposed to be oil fired with 'gas oil' not coal, for ease of refueling across the network. Gas Oil is the same as 'red diesel' and heating oil and is the stuff used routinely by diesel traction across the railway, hence the 5AT could refuel at any modern rail fuelling point.

When the benefits outweigh the costs, oil firing is a very good way of creating heat. It's considerably less labour intensive, doesn't create piles of ash to dispose of, rarely causes blocked tubes, doesn't require spark arresting equipment and if fired correctly can be burnt almost completely without smoke being emitted.

 

[21C101]

Steam is though fundamentally inefficient compared to other power sources. Coal has roughly half the energy density of diesel, with a similar bulk density.

If you built a new Leader, you could run it on fuel oil (or perhaps even diesel) as Bulleid originally intended and wouldn't need a fireman. The whole point of Leader wasn't to look pretty but to provide a full window cab at either end as Diesel Locos have. The Bulleid Leader Mk 2 in Ireland was virtually silent and could run on turf.

One advantage you would have now is that you could use computer simulation and cad cam to design out many of the flaws before it got built.

 

[Welly]

That 5AT design looks so ugly, a pathetic imitation of GWR's streamlining of "Manorbier Castle" which was itself a pathetic imitation of Gresley's & Stanier's streamlined Pacifics!

 

[MarkyT]

If you built a new Leader, you could run it on fuel oil (or perhaps even diesel) as Bulleid originally intended and wouldn't need a fireman. The whole point of Leader wasn't to look pretty but to provide a full window cab at either end as Diesel Locos have. The Bulleid Leader Mk 2 in Ireland was virtually silent and could run on turf.

All fascinating stuff but I doubt something that looked indistinguishable from a diesel would get much steam railtour work!

One advantage you would have now is that you could use computer simulation and cad cam to design out many of the flaws before it got built.

Something the A1 and P2 projects in particular have made and are making extensive use of.

 

[colchesterken]

I would like to see Tornado run at it full potential. Could it set a new speed record bearing in mind it was so well built
How about Just for fun a Sunday run down HS1 flat out 9 coach max ?

 

[alexl92]

All fascinating stuff but I doubt something that looked indistinguishable from a diesel would get much steam railtour work!

Steam Railmotor 93 is proving popular - it's essentially a railbus in many ways?

 

[MarkyT]

Steam Railmotor 93 is proving popular - it's essentially a railbus in many ways?

I love that railmotor, it oozes period character which a truly modern carbody clad powerbogie steam locomotive would not, and the railmotor's 'main line' appearances have been very niche operations on branches at high ticket prices for the novelty value. I can't see it taking 600 guests including premium diners on an all day excursion over the S&C!

 

[SWTH]

I would like to see Tornado run at it full potential. Could it set a new speed record bearing in mind it was so well built
How about Just for fun a Sunday run down HS1 flat out 9 coach max ?

I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised if Tornado could manage 105, maybe even 110, but build quality isn't going to suddenly give it more speed.

A steam engine's potential is best realised trying to keep to time with a heavy load.

 

[MarkyT]

I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised if Tornado could manage 105, maybe even 110, but build quality isn't going to suddenly give it more speed.

A1s were more powerful than A4s within the same outline dimensions, and with roller bearings should be freer running. Perhaps if one had been equipped with an A4 like streamlined casing, as proposed originally by the LNER, it might have had a chance at the steam record! But I don't think it's a good idea for Tornado. Although embodying new materials and built with a precision perhaps not possible in the 1940s, today you'd be pushing a unique asset closer to it's limits, perhaps expensively and dangerously to destruction of some vital part. This whole series of locomotives was designed for cruising along at up to 90MPH, maybe 100 occasionally in extremis. Going beyond that without a thorough redesign is reckless. Whatever you think of the idea or the look of the thing, the 5AT at least attempted to design all the mechanical components specifically for the forces and conditions of 125MPH running in normal service.