The 2024 US presidential election.

[InkyScrolls]

Surely it's better that the best person for the job get in, rather than what gender they are?

 

[DarloRich]

There's a lot of people on here claiming that Trump will do this terrible thing or that terrible thing. How about we just wait and see. The next four years are going to be interesting whatever happens.

I would like to agree but he and his team have been really clear in thier statements in quite a worrying way. For example, he has been really clear he wants to use the army to attack "far left militants" if they protest. The definition used is so wide as to encompass, potentially, anyone who disagrees with a Trump decision.

Quite frankly it beggars belief that a man who provoked an attempted coup is allowed to run for President in the first place.

It is insane that someone who unleashed a redneck SS inspired coup attempt, which lets not forget, was aiming to kill his own vice president for not agreeing with his electoral conspiracy is allowed to run for city dog catcher let alone president!

 

[ainsworth74]

Isn't it yet clear to people on the left/liberal/democrat side of the swing-o-meter, that the more you abuse and insult half the electorate. The less likely they are to vote the way you want? You can't hate people into supporting you. You have to win them over with actual policy ideas that they support, and a likely chance of delivering those policies. Just pushing hate, smears and abuse is no way to win support. Brexit, boris and now trump (for a 2nd time) has proved this.

Because the right/illiberal/authoritarian side of the swing-o-meter has been so welcoming and inclusive to those that disagree with it and hasn't at all abused and blamed them whilst pushing hate a smears... Sure...

I'm happy to concede that the lefty/liberal side has not covered itself in glory when it comes to stuff like this but don't pretend that the other side isn't at least as bad. The argument otherwise boils down to a version of right wing voters saying "Look at what you made me do" as if they had no agency of their own. The rallying cry of abusers the world over of course.

There are some small glimmers of hope on that front, though they may come under attack again under Trump's presidency:

Abortion: Seven US states expand rights as Florida ballot fails

The ballot initiative in Florida would have allowed abortion until the point of foetal viability or about 24 weeks.

www.bbc.co.uk

Indeed. They control (or most likely will control) all three branches of the Federal Government. If people don't think there's a high chance of a Federal abortion ban on the cards then I have a bridge to sell you. Not a nailed on certainty of course but I'd be more surprised in 2028 if there isn't a Federal ban on the books than the other way round.

 

[TravellingPhil]

Completely selfish post related to the election as I don't really want to express my political opinion here, although you'll be able to infer it anyway.

We're travelling cross country on Amtrak in March. Hopefully we should be fine before he makes any attempt to cut service or cuts to onboard amenities such as dining. We were thinking of visiting Washington as part of our trip but I'm in two minds now. Might look into Boston instead.

As for Amtrak, after his attempts to slash Amtrak funding last time, I wonder what the future of long distance rail travel in the US holds?

 

[jfollows]

Sky just showed some interesting graphics showing significant shifts by black and hispanic voters to the Republican party, countered only slightly by older voters going more toward Democrat. If I interpret it correctly. Shows that - like here - the “traditional” supporter base for the main parties is no more.

As it happened: Donald Trump's election and first 100 days

This live page brought you coverage of the 2024 US election and Donald Trump's first 100 days (or so). If you want to read from the start, tap on the "oldest/latest" tab below.

news.sky.com

The big question as well that the Democrats will be asking is - why have young men, black men and Latino men voted for Donald Trump? It's going to take a very long time for the party to come up with some kind of answers.

 

[DerekC]

We've already seen with brexit loons that these types are terminally stupid and absolutely refuse to listen to anything except what they want to hear, or believe anything except what they want to believe.

That's the kind of view that actually makes Brexit-type events happen. They happen because "populists" with charisma offer simple sounding but profoundly flawed solutions to complex and difficult problems, and academic liberals just tell people they are stupid for believing them, but don't explain why. Most people aren't stupid, in the UK or the USA or anywhere else. They can understand things if they are explained clearly.

Looking to the UK - after Trump 2024, which from this side of the Atlantic is really hard to swallow - is Farage going to become PM in 2029? It's a real issue. Maybe I will start a thread about that!

 

[DarloRich]

is Farage going to become PM in 2029? It's a real issue.

I don't know about that but there are elections coming up soon in major European countries. Where America goes the others follow. "Populism" is on the rise

 

[Puffing Devil]

Looking to the UK - after Trump 2024, which from this side of the Atlantic is really hard to swallow - is Farage going to become PM in 2029? It's a real issue. Maybe I will start a thread about that!

Pitch it to the Simpsons show runner.

 

[nlogax]

Most people aren't stupid, in the UK or the USA or anywhere else. They can understand things if they are explained clearly.

It's not the understanding that's the problem. It's more the refusal to acknowledge facts and instead continuing on down the road of 'you're wrong, I'm right' just to save face. To back down is viewed as a weakness. That can probably be said of both camps.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Because the right/illiberal/authoritarian side of the swing-o-meter has been so welcoming and inclusive to those that disagree with it and hasn't at all abused and blamed them whilst pushing hate a smears... Sure...

I'm happy to concede that the lefty/liberal side has not covered itself in glory when it comes to stuff like this but don't pretend that the other side isn't at least as bad. The argument otherwise boils down to a version of right wing voters saying "Look at what you made me do" as if they had no agency of their own. The rallying cry of abusers the world over of course.

Indeed. They control (or most likely will control) all three branches of the Federal Government. If people don't think there's a high chance of a Federal abortion ban on the cards then I have a bridge to sell you. Not a nailed on certainty of course but I'd be more surprised in 2028 if there isn't a Federal ban on the books than the other way round.

Agreed.

Both sides are just entrenched in views and social media stokes this. What is more concerning is that attitude permeating into general life now a days.

 

[wilbers]

in the previous Trump presidency we had "alternative facts".

 

[deltic]

Sky just showed some interesting graphics showing significant shifts by black and hispanic voters to the Republican party, countered only slightly by older voters going more toward Democrat. If I interpret it correctly. Shows that - like here - the “traditional” supporter base for the main parties is no more.

These groups are likely to be more socially conservative and like the Labour party in the UK, you are not made welcome in the Democratic party if you hold these views.

 

[nw1]

Isn't it yet clear to people on the left/liberal/democrat side of the swing-o-meter, that the more you abuse and insult half the electorate. The less likely they are to vote the way you want? You can't hate people into supporting you. You have to win them over with actual policy ideas that they support, and a likely chance of delivering those policies. Just pushing hate, smears and abuse is no way to win support. Brexit, boris and now trump (for a 2nd time) has proved this.

That just seems to be capitulating to questionable ideas, as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorry, but we should not try and "understand" these kinds of attitudes. We need to condemn them and make them socially unacceptable, and maybe people will then think differently.

I think Brexit, Boris and "him" all came about because in the 2010s and 2020s, it's become more socially acceptable to voice hard-right opinions. People like Farage and the orange thing have encouraged them and made them acceptable.

To take a trivial example, smoking on trains is now seen as thoroughly socially unacceptable. It was not always thus. Or a less trivial example, homophobia was once socially acceptable in the UK, now it isn't. Imagine if we tried to "understand" homophobia rather than roundly condemn it. It would probably still be seen as acceptable if we did that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2024 ==

I don't know about that but there are elections coming up soon in major European countries. Where America goes the others follow. "Populism" is on the rise

And it's an utter scourge. Sensible governments from the left to the centre-right need to fight (figuratively of course) against the scourge of right-wing populism as otherwise life will become very difficult for the whole of the West and we'll lose our long-held freedoms.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2024 ==

Surely it's better that the best person for the job get in, rather than what gender they are

Indeed, but that clearly hasn't happened. In this case the best person is clearly female and black. Anyone with even the smallest bit of common-sense can see that.

 

[Stossgebet]

That just seems to be capitulating to questionable ideas, as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorry, but we should not try and "understand" these kinds of attitudes. We need to condemn them and make them socially unacceptable, and maybe people will then think differently.

I think Brexit, Boris and the orange thing all came about because in the 2010s and 2020s, it's become more socially acceptable to voice hard-right opinions,

To take a trivial example, smoking on trains is now seen as thoroughly socially unacceptable. It was not always thus. Or a less trivial example, homophobia was once socially acceptable in the UK, now it isn't. Imagine if we went through the 2020s policy of trying to "understand" homophobia. It would probably still be seen as acceptable if we did that.

Pushing your favourite politically correct buzzwords, as smears. Is exactly the type of behaviour i called out in my comment.
And if you were being honest, you would admit that the left/liberal/democrat side of the politcal divide would use those smear words against any and every political opponent the left fights against.

It's tired. It's boring, and you've used those words to death so much, that they don't carry the weight they should, because you keep crying wolf with them. And again, an election result proves that they don't work. After all. When you keep throwing those smear words, eventually everyone becomes 'far right' and all you've achieved is to upset the very people whose votes you need.

 

[nw1]

Pushing your favourite politically correct buzzwords, as smears. Is exactly the type of behaviour i called out in my comment.
And if you were being honest, you would admit that the left/liberal/democrat side of the politcal divide would use those smear words against any and every political opponent the left fights against.

It's tired. It's boring, and you've used those words to death so much, that they don't carry the weight they should, because you keep crying wolf with them. And again, an election result proves that they don't work. After all. When you keep throwing those smear words, eventually everyone becomes 'far right' and all you've achieved is to upset the very people whose votes you need.

So you don't seem to realise that the populist right seem to want to constantly demonise minorities? It's the populist right that are pushing hate, not the left.

The left are trying to fight hate, not support it. But they can only do so if they are somewhat forceful themselves with their language and rhetoric, without of course descending into hate speech (which they aren't). If the left lie down and accept the ideas of the populist right, then the ideas of the populist right will become increasingly normalised.

Do you really think that someone who seemed to incite the Jan 5th 2021 events, someone who has used hate speech against his opponents, someone who claims immigrants kill cats and dogs for kicks and someone who has been found guilty of a serious felony is suitable material for President? I'm sorry but "at least under him the trains ran on time" doesn't cut it.

 

[Stossgebet]

No, you should try to explain to them in real terms why they're wrong and how voting for them would make their lives better. Insulting doesn't work, but neither does lurching further right.

No one is 'lurching further right'. This is just going back to exactly the same place that the USA was 4 years ago. Only the world is a lot less peaceful now. In the summer of 2020 Trump brokered numerous agreements to normalise Arab Israeli relations. Now look at what's happening. Trump met with the leader of North Korea in the Singapore summits. The first time the leaders of these two nations ever met.
I would rather have a US president that tries to settle disputes, than one that sends in the army. And the precident was set. In 2016 he was called all the nasty buzzwords that the left have. In office, he was the most peaceful US president in half a century.

Maybe that's why your smear words failed again.

Tell me how i am wrong. How is getting normalization agreements and getting meetings with North Korea in order to try an initiate de-nuclearisation a bad thing? If that can be described as a lurch, take the swing-o-meter out of it, and just ask if you think that's a good thing? And does it fit any of the smear words thrown at Trump?

 

[nw1]

No one is 'lurching further right'. This is just going back to exactly the same place that the USA was 4 years ago.

Except four years ago, he was nothing like as extreme as now. January 2021 hadn't happened. The constant use of threats and hate speech against his components hadn't happened.

Only the world is a lot less peaceful now.

Nothing to do with the US leadership in recent times and everything to do with two of the orange thing's warmongering mates, Vlad and Benjamin.

In the summer of 2020 Trump brokered numerous agreements to normalise Arab Israeli relations. Now look at what's happening. Trump met with the leader of North Korea in the Singapore summits. The first time the leaders of these two nations ever met.
I would rather have a US president that tries to settle disputes, than one that sends in the army. And the precident was set. In 2016 he was called all the nasty buzzwords that the left have. In office, he was the most peaceful US president in half a century.

Maybe that's why your smear words failed again.

Ah diddums. Poor little Donald is being smeared.

It's not him that's being smeared. It's the immigrants being smeared by him, who he is claiming are evil cat-murderers. This is clear evidence that he is an inciter of hate. But oh no, the left just need to lie down like good compliant conformist boys and girls and accept people's "legitimate concerns" that immigrants are cat-murderers - rather than fight that disgraceful bigoted rhetoric.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Indeed, but that clearly hasn't happened. In this case the best person is clearly female and black. Anyone with even the smallest bit of common-sense can see that.

I was responding to the comment that 'America isn't ready for a female president', not commenting on the candidates specifically.

 

[DarloRich]

Tell me how i am wrong. How is getting normalization agreements and getting meetings with North Korea in order to try an initiate de-nuclearisation a bad thing?

You are wrong - nothing is achieved by these meetings. Those Trump talks to pull his pants down over and over again. N Korea didn't stop developing missiles while Trump was in power.

In office, he was the most peaceful US president in half a century.

By doing whatever his autocratic friends ( you know those people he admires and wants to duplicate) want him to. Putin will be emboldened to acquire more territory, Xi Jinping will be emboldened to recapture Taiwan. Trump will applaud and people on his side will say he was the most peaceful US president in half a century while the world burns!

At some point the fire will get too close to the USA.

Pushing your favourite politically correct buzzwords, as smears.

And by the same token calling anyone who disagrees with you a radical far left Marxist hardly helps! The Democratic party in the USA are not Marxisits!

 

[nw1]

You are wrong - nothing is achieved by these meetings. Those Trump talks to pull his pants down over and over again. N Korea didn't stop developing missiles while Trump was in power.

By doing whatever his autocratic friends ( you know those people he admires and wants to duplicate) want him to. Putin will be emboldened to acquire more territory, Xi Jinping will be emboldened to recapture Taiwan. Trump will applaud and people on his side will say he was the most peaceful US president in half a century while the world burns!

Indeed, hope the inhabitants of Hillbilly County, Pennsylvania feel some guilt if countries fall under the yoke of Putin and Xi. But I suppose all they're concerned about is keeping the communist Dems and the evil Mexicans out of their county.

 

[Stossgebet]

So you don't seem to realise that the populist right seem to want to constantly demonise minorities? It's the populist right that are pushing hate, not the left.

The left are trying to fight hate, not support it. But they can only do so if they are somewhat forceful themselves with their language and rhetoric, without of course descending into hate speech (which they aren't). If the left lie down and accept the ideas of the populist right, then the ideas of the populist right will become increasingly normalised.

Do you really think that someone who seemed to incite the Jan 5th 2021 events, someone who has used hate speech against his opponents, someone who claims immigrants kill cats and dogs for kicks and someone who has been found guilty of a serious felony is suitable material for President? I'm sorry but "at least under him the trains ran on time" doesn't cut it.

But do the the left really practise what they preach in America? What happened to the migrants that were sent to Marthas Vineyard and other significantly democratic areas? It may have been a stunt. But it made the point.
And look back further. To when Trump was accused of locking up migrant children in cages at the border.... and it turns out that those cages were installed and used to lock up children in 2014 during Obamas regime. Trump ended that disgusting practise. Granted, he only ended after he was blamed for it. But i guess he genuinely didn't know about it until it hit the media as an attack on Trump. Let me remind you again. The Democrat party of Obama locked children in cages.

 

[3141]

That just seems to be capitulating to questionable ideas, as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorry, but we should not try and "understand" these kinds of attitudes. We need to condemn them and make them socially unacceptable, and maybe people will then think differently.

I think Brexit, Boris and the orange thing all came about because in the 2010s and 2020s, it's become more socially acceptable to voice hard-right opinions. People like Farage and the orange thing have encouraged them and made them acceptable.

It has seemed to me, looking at various items that appear on Microsoft Start during the past few months, that there's been a lot of wishful thinking by the anti-Trump camp, with reports declaring that he was doomed as a result of impending legal cases, signs of incipient mental confusion, and so on. But people have voted for him. We do need to understand why. And we'll need to understand what makes people in this country give support to views we dislike and consider to be wrong. Simply condemning such views won't cause people to think differently. They can answer, "Why shouldn't I condemn your views?" That leads us into more entrenched and intolerant positions.

It's very likely that one reason for Trump's success is the economic situation in America, price rises, etc. Another is immigration. When Trump claims that immigrants are eating Americans' pets, he doesn't necessarily expect to be literally believed. There are some who will believe him, but more who will feel that it's the kind of thing that might happen, and whose general unease about the number of immigrants entering the country is given a kind of focus in their minds, even if they don't believe the actual claims that Trump is making. It adds to their sense that American values are being undermined.

This kind of thing is very difficult to counter. We might think we represent the Voice of Reason but we need something that offers an emotional conviction too.

As to why it's become more socially acceptable to voice hard-right opinions, it certainly become socially much easier to express and spread them.

 

[nw1]

But do the the left really practise what they preach in America? What happened to the migrants that were sent to Marthas Vineyard and other significantly democratic areas? It may have been a stunt. But it made the point.
And look back further. To when Trump was accused of locking up migrant children in cages at the border.... and it turns out that those cages were installed and used to lock up children in 2014 during Obamas regime. Trump ended that disgusting practise. Granted, he only ended after he was blamed for it. But i guess he genuinely didn't know about it until it hit the media as an attack on Trump. Let me remind you again. The Democrat party of Obama locked children in cages.

Was it the Obama regime or was it GOP-led Congress and/or Senate? (I don't know, just asking).

But in any case "the Democrats are not perfect" is not really a good argument.

Let's say we had a GE in which the only two choices were Cameron and Farage, probably a very good analogy for the Dems versus the GOP. I am not the world's greatest fan of Cameron, but I'd vote for him in a heartbeat if it kept the other candidate out.

 

[Stossgebet]

You are wrong - nothing is achieved by these meetings. Those Trump talks to pull his pants down over and over again. N Korea didn't stop developing missiles while Trump was in power.

By doing whatever his autocratic friends ( you know those people he admires and wants to duplicate) want him to. Putin will be emboldened to acquire more territory, Xi Jinping will be emboldened to recapture Taiwan. Trump will applaud and people on his side will say he was the most peaceful US president in half a century while the world burns!

At some point the fire will get too close to the USA.


And by the same token calling anyone who disagrees with you a radical far left Marxist hardly helps! The Democratic party in the USA are not Marxisits!

I didn't call anyone a "far left radical marxist"
why have you invented that lie?

I guess your words about putin and jinping will come back to haunt you, just like all the previous comments that were so confident of remain winning, of Hillary winning, of Harris winning. It's brave to out your name to such confident predictions. And for that i salute you. But please. Don't lie about me by inventing words i never said. That is not a very good look for you, and further proves my point about the left throwing smears.

 

[DarloRich]

I didn't call anyone a "far left radical marxist"
why have you invented that lie?

I didn't say you did - Trump does though. he has used that phrase many times.

I guess your words about putin and jinping will come back to haunt you, just like all the previous comments that were so confident of remain winning, of Hillary winning, of Harris winning. It's brave to out your name to such confident predictions. And for that i salute you. But please. Don't lie about me by inventing words i never said. That is not a very good look for you, and further proves my point about the left throwing smears.

What on earth are you on about?

BTW - look above - i said Trump was going to win.

 

[Stossgebet]

Because the right/illiberal/authoritarian side of the swing-o-meter has been so welcoming and inclusive to those that disagree with it and hasn't at all abused and blamed them whilst pushing hate a smears... Sure...

I'm happy to concede that the lefty/liberal side has not covered itself in glory when it comes to stuff like this but don't pretend that the other side isn't at least as bad. The argument otherwise boils down to a version of right wing voters saying "Look at what you made me do" as if they had no agency of their own. The rallying cry of abusers the world over of course.

Indeed. They control (or most likely will control) all three branches of the Federal Government. If people don't think there's a high chance of a Federal abortion ban on the cards then I have a bridge to sell you. Not a nailed on certainty of course but I'd be more surprised in 2028 if there isn't a Federal ban on the books than the other way round.

Indeed. A reply to my comment about the smears of the left, is in perfect sentiment "look what the right made us do". As if they have no choice.

 

[nw1]

The dollar seems to be "soaring".

US shares, Bitcoin hit record high and dollar soars on Trump win

The result could have a far-reaching implications for tax and trade policy, as well as economies around the world.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not exactly sure why, given that the instability that will ensue.

 

[Stossgebet]

I didn't say you did - Trump does though. he has used that phrase many times.

What on earth are you on about?

BTW - look above - i said Trump was going to win.

You didn't attribute your "anti marxist" words to Trump though. You just added them in a reply to me. Aimed at me.

 

[DarloRich]

You didn't attribute your "anti marxist" words to Trump though. You just added them in a reply to me. Aimed at me.

dont be silly.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Trump winning the popular vote was a pretty unexpected twist. Might be a good place to start the inevitable post mortem of the Dems' overnight failure.

Is the correct answer.