The £10 administration fee

[railboy]

I have a standard class advance purchase ticket and i am considering upgrading this to a first class ticket as there is a first class advance ticket on the same train for the same journey that is £13.85 more expensive. This is not a weekend first class upgrade and unsure how to upgrade, I looked on the national rail enquiries website for guidance.

There are two pages with contradicting information. The first page states that a change to your travel plan, your journey and even your seat allocation all attract a £10 administration fee on top of the difference between the fare you have paid and the fare you want. The second page states that for a first class upgrade, you simply pay the difference between the standard class ticket and the appropriate first class ticket with no mention of an administration fee.

I am concerned that this could cause some disparity and confusion of what should happen as it could be interpreted ether way. My decision to upgrade will depend solely on whether this £10 fee is waived or not and I am hoping for a definitive answer and a source that won't contradict to avoid dispute between two pages / interpretations.

What are the circumstances that the £10 administration fee applies without exception, the circumstances it is waived without exception and the circumstances the fee position is unclear e.g. when discretion defines the answer? What if my source of information stating no administration fee is due is disputed owing to other contradicting information? Am I overlooking something or is the system just so complicated that you cannot have certainty anymore?

 

[yorkie]

It will depend on the clerk!

Admin fees are discretionary, as I understand it. Though it's possible that some ticket offices may have procedures/policies in place, such as having to fill in forms when they don't charge or something, so the clerk may feel obliged to.

 

[Urban Gateline]

It will depend on the clerk!

Admin fees are discretionary, as I understand it. Though it's possible that some ticket offices may have procedures/policies in place, such as having to fill in forms when they don't charge or something, so the clerk may feel obliged to.

If the ticket was booked online though, the Admin Fee is not discretionary on there! As I found out when having to change the date of outward and return First Class advances due to a short notice problem, cost £20 in fees just to change that journey, but it's better than loosing the total value paid (around £95!)

I don't think I could have changed these Advances at a ticket office could I? They may have just refered me back to the EC site where I bought them from!

 

[yorkie]

If the ticket was booked online though, the Admin Fee is not discretionary on there! As I found out when having to change the date of outward and return First Class advances due to a short notice problem, cost £20 in fees just to change that journey, but it's better than loosing the total value paid (around £95!)

Indeed the online booking sites that can handle such changes will not be showing discretion.

I don't think I could have changed these Advances at a ticket office could I? They may have just refered me back to the EC site where I bought them from!

Any ticket office which has access to the central reservation system should, in theory, be able to do it (though there are so many systems, and some of them have bugs, no doubt there'll be one of the systems that is incapable of processing it, and no doubt several ticket offices will not have been trained in how to do it, etc etc... )

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.....There are two pages with contradicting information. The first page states that a change to your travel plan, your journey and even your seat allocation all attract a £10 administration fee on top of the difference between the fare you have paid and the fare you want. The second page states that for a first class upgrade, you simply pay the difference between the standard class ticket and the appropriate first class ticket with no mention of an administration fee....

The first is correct, the second could be right or wrong depending on who you ask.

.....I am concerned that this could cause some disparity and confusion of what should happen as it could be interpreted ether way. My decision to upgrade will depend solely on whether this £10 fee is waived or not and I am hoping for a definitive answer and a source that won't contradict to avoid dispute between two pages / interpretations....

I will try to explain.

.....What are the circumstances that the £10 administration fee applies without exception....

Any change to seating position, train time or day of travel incurs a £10 fee when done at a ticket office.

.....the circumstances it is waived without exception....

When the train company is at fault.

.....and the circumstances the fee position is unclear e.g. when discretion defines the answer?....

Only a guard/train manager has discretionary powers here, they can allow travel on the ticket on their train (even when the rules say no) whilst they are the guard on it, or they can stick to the rules laid out for them. You should never expect discretion to be shown though.

.....What if my source of information stating no administration fee is due is disputed owing to other contradicting information? Am I overlooking something or is the system just so complicated that you cannot have certainty anymore?

Look at it this way, if you are transfering from standard to first you are changing your seat allocation, so expect a £10 fee to apply and be happy if it doesn't.

....Admin fees are discretionary, as I understand it....

It's the other way round, the waiving of the admin fee is discretionary (and sometimes mandatory).

Ticket offices actually have very few discretionary powers these days, though that does not stop some clerks using discretion anyway!

....(no doubt there'll be one of the systems that is incapable of processing it, and no doubt several ticket offices will not have been trained in how to do it, etc etc... )

The latter is far more likely imo.

 

[railboy]

I ended up buying the upgrade at London Bridge and it took three members of staff 30 minutes to sort it out. I was told I had to pay three lots of £10 charges. I was told there was a £10 charge simply as the transaction / admin fee, a second £10 charge for changing the class of the ticket from standard to first and a third £10 charge to change the seat reservation from standard to first. I won't bother next time!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you paid the £30, you need to contact the TOC (Southeastern?) to get your money back and to ask that they train their staff. If you didn't pay, you should still do the latter.

 

[telstarbox]

If the train company isn't at fault though, why can clerks decide whether to apply the £10 charge or not? Would it not show up in the audit if they hadn't applied it correctly?

 

[CyrusWuff]

If the train company isn't at fault though, why can clerks decide whether to apply the £10 charge or not? Would it not show up in the audit if they hadn't applied it correctly?

It's possible for a TOC to see if a relevant supplement has been applied by checking a "shift print" for the relevant code.

It's also alleged that First Great Western and Greater Anglia (being the only TOCs who currently charge for seat reservations in certain circumstances) routinely check various systems to ensure that retailers are applying the relevant fees.

 

[railboy]

I've already decided I will complain in writing because on each excess it states "change of journey" when upgrading to first class is by no means a change of journey. I haven't changed train. As for the "administration charge", I feel as if I'm paying their salary to look up their procedure book for instructions they should already know. I then wanted to sort out an Oyster card query and they said they can't deal with that and I'd have another half an hour spent in the underground station sorting that out. The way fares work in this country are truly stupid and ridiculous. There can be no clear policy or procedure to be followed and you can't sort out an issue using an Oyster card even from a station that your Oyster card is valid from.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I ended up buying the upgrade at London Bridge and it took three members of staff 30 minutes to sort it out. I was told I had to pay three lots of £10 charges. I was told there was a £10 charge simply as the transaction / admin fee, a second £10 charge for changing the class of the ticket from standard to first and a third £10 charge to change the seat reservation from standard to first. I won't bother next time!

That is a major training issue (to put it mildly)...It's even detailed in the "Advance Fares FAQ" in The Manual (which all ticket office staff should have access to).

Q08 - A passenger wishes to change their booking. Are there any boundaries by how much they can bring forward or put back an Advance ticket booking?

A: Changes can be brought forward or set back only for as far ahead as train reservations are open – normally around 12 weeks. The original ticket must be presented at the time the change request is made.

Some station scenarios:

*snip*

• e.g.4: Change of class. A Standard Advance holder wishes to upgrade to First Class for the following day. First Advance is available. Charge the difference plus £10 fee. Remember to cancel the old reservations.

How to issue such a ticket will depend on the TIS being used, but will involve applying an Excess in addition to the change of journey supplement. Even on the slowest machines it should take no more than five minutes, including the time taken to check availability.

 

[yorkie]

Which TOC operates the ticket office at London Bridge?

I know Network Rail manage the station but I can't find any evidence of whether the ticket office is run by SET or Southern.

Whoever it is, needs to refund £20 worth of admin fees. And if they refuse, the matter needs to be passed on to Passenger Focus (and, if gets to that stage, a letter could also be sent to Virgin along the lines of 'this is how another Company treated one of your customers, can you do anything about it'?).

 

[transmanche]

a letter could also be sent to Virgin along the lines of 'this is how another Company treated one of your customers, can you do anything about it'?).

Being that VT often seem to respond to enquiries with a "sorry we're so busy we can't deal with your enquiry, but here's some RTVs instead", the OP might end up making a profit from the situation...

 

[Muzer]

And one thing that I'm sure nobody would argue Virgin are good at* is kicking up a fuss, so I'm sure that if they DID actually read the complaint, they might, I don't know, sue Southeastern or something .



*(I actually quite like Virgin as a TOC, not necessarily as a company as a whole, but let's not start that argument)

 

[telstarbox]

Which TOC operates the ticket office at London Bridge?

TVMs are Southeastern (these are in the Southern side of the station as well) - does that help? (from Stations Made Easy)

 

[maniacmartin]

You can find out who operates each ticket office, in Schedule 17 of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement.
For London Bridge, its Southeastern

 

[bicbasher]

Southeastern manage the ticket offices at London Bridge, Cannon Street and Charing Cross.