Thameslink - why loose the name?

[DaveNewcastle]

We all know the ThamesLink route, the stations, the plans for the future and maybe some of its facinating piecemeal history - but now that its Kings Cross station has been re-built inside St Pancras, why can't we keep the Thameslink name?
As you wander round the massive new St.Pancras there absolutely no mention of Thameslink anywhere! Theres plenty signs alright and many for Euro* and "UK Rail" which if you follow and go up the escalator will show you departure boards for MML destinations, or if you carry on, there is aFFC banner which in the smaller print mentions Brighton, Bedford etc. But frankly, if you were carrying luggage or dependant people, you wouldn't want to be wandering round going up, down, left and right looking for the station!

I'm lucky - I know where the tracks are in relation to the building but still find the signage maddening.
Why not use the name: THAMESLINK.
Its even printed on the London A-Z as Thameslink. (not that the posh shops in St. P would sell anything as cheap as an A-Z unless it was embossed with gold)
Or is it just me getting confused?

 

[Max]

I'm sure there are signs on the concourse saying something like 'formerly known as Thameslink' so not all traces have been removed. In fact, new signs have been installed on the tube station which specifically say 'Thameslink' on them, but obviously now pointing in a different direction.

 

[Tom C]

We all know the ThamesLink route, the stations, the plans for the future and maybe some of its facinating piecemeal history - but now that its Kings Cross station has been re-built inside St Pancras, why can't we keep the Thameslink name?
As you wander round the massive new St.Pancras there absolutely no mention of Thameslink anywhere! Theres plenty signs alright and many for Euro* and "UK Rail" which if you follow and go up the escalator will show you departure boards for MML destinations, or if you carry on, there is aFFC banner which in the smaller print mentions Brighton, Bedford etc. But frankly, if you were carrying luggage or dependant people, you wouldn't want to be wandering round going up, down, left and right looking for the station!

First tried everything to remove Thameslink from the entire system.

They were planning to rename City Thameslink to St Pauls or Holborn Viaduct and West Hampstead Thameslink to West Hampstead.

With staff they are desperate for people to stop calling TL and GN despite the fact that the gulf between staff on equal grades is in some cases enormous and in most significant.

At Pancake they have signs for East Midlands Trains and First Capital Connect problem being that across the road in Kings Cross you have......First Capital Connect.

A simple "First Capital Connect TL route" would suffice however having TL in the equation is not in Firsts plans!

 

[Max]

At Pancake they have signs for East Midlands Trains and First Capital Connect problem being that across the road in Kings Cross you have......First Capital Connect.

A simple "First Capital Connect TL route" would suffice however having TL in the equation is not in Firsts plans!

Is this to try and erradicate any possible relationship to the old franchise?

It all seems a bit daft really. It wasn't just the company that was known as Thameslink, but the route as a whole.

 

[class 313]

The name hasn't been lost. The route is still known as First Capital Connect Thameslink.

 

[Z12XE]

How do they distinguish between the fast and metro services now, as they seem to have removed all traces of the City Flyer and City Metro idea?

 

[class 313]

How do they distinguish between the fast and metro services now, as they seem to have removed all traces of the City Flyer and City Metro idea?

Just FCC services.

 

[Edvid]

In theory an ex-CityFlyer train will be a 319/4, and an ex-CityMetro train a 319/3. Diagramming complications however mean that you will often find a 319/3 on an ex-CityFlyer diagram, although 319/4 ex-CityMetro diagrams are quite rare. 319/0s are indiscriminately allocated.

As for the removal of 'Thameslink' from Thameslink propaganda that was already in place in 2006, that was Thameslink's doing. And there were never any plans to rename stations with a 'Thameslink' suffix seeing as the name goes back to its inception in May 1988 (random factoid - that was the month which I was born!).

 

[Tom C]

And there were never any plans to rename stations with a 'Thameslink' suffix seeing as the name goes back to its inception in May 1988 (random factoid - that was the month which I was born!).

Begging your pardon old chap but as an FCC and former Thameslink employee I can tell you that they were - I was actually in the meeting that discussed Holborn Viaduct (a station I can remember with great fondness)

although 319/4 ex-CityMetro diagrams are quite rare.

Rare? As in several units a day?

Its extreamly common to find 319/4's on Sutton loop services. In fact on the way back from Blackfriars this evening I caught a refurbished /4.

As for the removal of 'Thameslink' from Thameslink propaganda that was already in place in 2006, that was Thameslink's doing.

Thameslink didn't remove any references of the word "Thameslink". It was staff at the various depots who went around striking out the word "Thameslink" from on train maps and signage on the trains in the final two weeks of operation. This was in no way an instruction from Thameslink.

 

[Edvid]

Well I'll be damned! I stand corrected on all three points.

 

[class 313]

Nice to have two good sources of my local line, really is.

 

[ah-media]

How do they distinguish between the fast and metro services now, as they seem to have removed all traces of the City Flyer and City Metro idea?

FCC have a fast service ??? As opposed to what exactly ?!?!?!?!? I wouldn't consider a service that takes longer to get from London Bridge to Blackfriars than it would to walk, as "fast" ?!?!?

Why do you need to distinguish between Flyer and Metro? The maps don't distinguish and there is no difference in announcements etc.

 

[Tom C]

FCC have a fast service ??? As opposed to what exactly ?!?!?!?!? I wouldn't consider a service that takes longer to get from London Bridge to Blackfriars than it would to walk, as "fast" ?!?!?

Why do you need to distinguish between Flyer and Metro? The maps don't distinguish and there is no difference in announcements etc.

City Metro/Flyer was a Thameslink idea for the northern section of the line. It was all about the difference between 1T/2T services and 2V/2O services north of Kings Cross Thameslink and really came about when they opened Luton Airport Parkway.

South of Kings Cross the old Flyer and Metro announcements were only really used to try and stop people getting on the wrong trains. 2W services from Bedford to Brighton never used the "flyer" because they went via Tulse Hill and 1B's never used it because they started at London Bridge.

As soon as FCC took over the whole idea was ditched.

 

[Edvid]

FCC have a fast service ??? As opposed to what exactly ?!?!?!?!? I wouldn't consider a service that takes longer to get from London Bridge to Blackfriars than it would to walk, as "fast" ?!?!?

The trains are painfully slow between London Blackfriars and London Bridge, but they're not that slow. A brisk walk between their respective concourses takes 20 minutes whereas the train takes 8 minutes in comparison.

Don't forget that FCC services are not limited to Central London and that their trains are built for a maximum service speed of 100mph.

 

[Tom C]

The trains are painfully slow between London Blackfriars and London Bridge, but they're not that slow. A brisk walk between their respective concourses takes 20 minutes whereas the train takes 8 minutes in comparison.

The only reason its so slow is because from London Bridge to Blackfriars trains are subject to a 20 mph speed limit. You also have Borough Market Junction and Blackfriars Junction to deal with. Usually trains from London Bridge have priority over trains from Elephant & Castle.

2V trains from Sutton have a lot of time booked standing outside of Blackfriars and the 2O from Wimbledon have 4 minutes slack at Blackfriars so that should a Bedford be late it shouldn't hold up the stopper but the fasts are almost always infront of the slows. I have been on slows that have waited 10 minutes at Blackfriars Junction to let a late running Brighton through.

 

[dan_atki]

FCC have a fast service ??? As opposed to what exactly ?!?!?!?!? I wouldn't consider a service that takes longer to get from London Bridge to Blackfriars than it would to walk, as "fast" ?!?!?

Why do you need to distinguish between Flyer and Metro? The maps don't distinguish and there is no difference in announcements etc.

Ah but under TL branding there WAS a difference in announcements - all Southern managed stations ECR-BTN announced (and IIRC was shown on departure boards) as 'Thameslink CityFlier service to' (for reasons I am not aware as Metro never even touched that route - perhaps it was to give the 'fast' impression). This was changed in the final few months of the franchise where the CityFlier branding was dropped and it was just 'Thameslink service to'.

Sutton-Mitcham Junction and Wimbledon always announced the CityMetros as just 'Thameslink service to' (as did the TL owned Ditra announcement systems at Bedford, Luton, St Albans, King's Cross Thameslink, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, and - if I'm not mistaken - Elephant & Castle) even though CityMetro was in the system.

Regarding the maps - the two routes are (and always have been) shown distinct on FCC and TL route maps and under TL days with CityMetro and CityFlier routes shown on the key.

The need for the distinction was, as has already been said, at the north end of the line (Luton-St Albans) and in London (King's Cross Thameslink-Blackfriars) where the routes coincide. Funnily enough the distinction between the routes was never used where it was most needed.

In general, it was made known to TL/GN staff at the commencement of the FCC franchise that routes would maintain TL/GN branding because (and I quote) 'it is what customers are familiar with'. Now that we are almost 2 years in perhaps they really do want to lose the distinction between the two routes now.

I too remember the over-zealous removal of EVERY instance of 'Thameslink' on the 319s. The footer on stickers was cut off, it was striked out with black marker pen on maps and anywhere where it appeared in the middle of a sticker so it couldn't be cut off. We had 'West Hampstead', 'King's Cross', and 'City' stations shown on the onboard connections maps, served by an unknown operator...

 

[Tom C]

Sutton-Mitcham Junction and Wimbledon always announced the CityMetros as just 'Thameslink service to' (as did the TL owned Ditra announcement systems at Bedford, Luton, St Albans, King's Cross Thameslink, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, and - if I'm not mistaken - Elephant & Castle) even though CityMetro was in the system.

Not quite

The 2O's via Sutton were announced as Thameslink City Metro, the 2V's via Wimbledon were announced as Thameslink. Wimbledon announced just about everything as Thameslink City Metro.

City Thameslink towards the end added the Metro/Flyer bits, Elephant & Castle and Blackfriars were still using tape boxes until very late into the franchise and when they got it it only had Thameslink in the system although for an unknown reason it did have Southern.

 

[dan_atki]

The 2O's via Sutton were announced as Thameslink City Metro, the 2V's via Wimbledon were announced as Thameslink. Wimbledon announced just about everything as Thameslink City Metro.

That's rather interesting because in my experience Ditras have always been set up to say 'Thameslink service to Wimbledon' (if via Sutton) and 'Thameslink service to Sutton' (if via Wimbledon). Unless this was quite a while ago (pre 2005)?

What you say about Wimbledon may be true owing to the fact that is the only SWT system that had to announce TL services so it was probably set up differently to Southern's and TL's systems.

Then again that strikes me as odd because Southern was announcing 'CityFlier' at the same time as not announcing 'CityMetro' :?

 

[Tom C]

That's rather interesting because in my experience Ditras have always been set up to say 'Thameslink service to Wimbledon' (if via Sutton) and 'Thameslink service to Sutton' (if via Wimbledon). Unless this was quite a while ago (pre 2005)?

Again not quite

At Tulse Hill, Streatham and Mitcham Junction trains to Wimbledon were always announced as XX:XX Thameslink City Metro service to Wimbledon via Hackbridge. At Hackbridge, Carshalton and Sutton it was the same without the via Hackbridge. Trains via Wimbledon were always Thameslink service to Sutton or Wimbledon.

It was the same right up until the very last day

 

[class 313]

FCC have a fast service ??? As opposed to what exactly ?!?!?!?!?

Why do you need to distinguish between Flyer and Metro? The maps don't distinguish

Flyers do non stop from St Albans - ST Pancras whereas Metros call at all stops. There's also flyer services inside the flyer services. What I mean is, Some trains are fast down to Brighton whereas the other stop at such stations as Preston Park...

The maps used to show the difference between the two lines, but now FCC have taken the flyer/metro names out, there's now no need.

 

[dan_atki]

Again not quite

At Tulse Hill, Streatham and Mitcham Junction trains to Wimbledon were always announced as XX:XX Thameslink City Metro service to Wimbledon via Hackbridge. At Hackbridge, Carshalton and Sutton it was the same without the via Hackbridge. Trains via Wimbledon were always Thameslink service to Sutton or Wimbledon.

It was the same right up until the very last day

hmmm a bit strange how it was only used for one route in one direction at certain stations - is there a reason known for such a peculiar setup?

 

[Tom C]

hmmm a bit strange how it was only used for one route in one direction at certain stations - is there a reason known for such a peculiar setup?

It was also the same in the other direction. Trains coming from Sutton were Thameslink service to Luton (later St Albans) via Hackbridge whereas trains from Wimbledon were Thameslink City Metro service to Bedford/Luton/St Albans.

The maps used to show the difference between the two lines, but now FCC have taken the flyer/metro names out, there's now no need.

The map still does show a difference - pale blue is for the old Metro services, dark blue for the old flyer services. Strangly the limited service (1W13/2W17) via Tulse Hill to Brighton have always been shown as Metro services even though both are fast from St Albans and 1W13 is semi fast past Gatwick.

 

[class 313]

The map still does show a difference - pale blue is for the old Metro services, dark blue for the old flyer services. Strangly the limited service (1W13/2W17) via Tulse Hill to Brighton have always been shown as Metro services even though both are fast from St Albans and 1W13 is semi fast past Gatwick.

Ah, thought so, cheers for correcting that though.

 

[AlexS]

You all need to stop worrying - nearly 4 years on our local auto announcers still announce ATW trains as Wales and Borders, despite London Midland being updated on them.

2 years is nothing