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Hi, for the last couple of years I’ve been travelling from St Neots to City Thameslink a couple of times a week. I have a network rail card. I would either use Trainpal or Trainline to purchase a split return ticket, most of the time being a ticket from St Neots to Biggleswade and then from Biggleswade to City Thameslink. I would normally board the 9:16am train at St Neots and then arrive at City Thameslink at 10:21am. I understood this to be an off peak train on the basis that it departs St Neots after 9am and gets into London after 10am. I would scan through the barriers without any problem at both stations and previously had my ticket checked by an inspector without issues. This morning it got checked at Knebworth (in between Biggleswade and City Thameslink) and I’ve been told that the ticket is invalid as my railcard only applies from 10am onwards. When asked whether I travelled like this before I said yes. What is my best course of action to avoid prosecution? If I misunderstood the terms of the ticket I don’t mind paying the difference including historical difference, but I cannot afford to end up with a prosecution. Thank you for your help.
Indeed, the terms of the Network Card are that it cannot be used until 10am. You must have been selecting a time to travel after 10am and then using the ticket on an earlier service, no?
The good news is GTR rarely prosecute if you cooperate when you get their letter, but that bad news is that if they trawl back through previous purchases and ask for the full date for each journey, it could cost you a lot. Usually it’s not “the difference” you are asked to pay, but again for the full fare.
Indeed, the terms of the Network Card are that it cannot be used until 10am. You must have been selecting a time to travel after 10am and then using the ticket on an earlier service, no?
The good news is GTR rarely prosecute if you cooperate when you get their letter, but that bad news is that if they trawl back through previous purchases and ask for the full date for each journey, it could cost you a lot. Usually it’s not “the difference” you are asked to pay, but again for the full fare.
You can find many examples here of good responses, but the important thing is to reply promptly, be apologetic, explain that you have learnt your lesson and ask very nicely if they will consider an out of court settlement. Don't lie - eg if your actions were deliberate, don't say it was an accident.
As for what ticket they will use, that will depend on what they say in the letter. But if they have investigated your account, they will see that you purchased two tickets, and neither were valid, so it is likely that they will consider it as one journey wholly on invalid tickets.
If they write to you, you should quote the National Rail Conditions of Travel back at them:
9.5Where you:
9.5.1 are using a Ticket that is correctly dated but restricted for use at a range of
times other than the service on which you are travelling (this does not
include Tickets which are valid only on a specific timed train service or train
services);
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest
price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.
You should just have been charged the difference in fare.
(If they wanted to prosecute, they'd need to prove you were doing this deliberately. Typically that would be done by showing they've already warned you but you continued doing it.)
If you had two tickets, spilt at Biggleswade, and the train called at Biggleswade at or after 10am on a weekday (excluding bank hols) then I would expect the Biggleswade to City Thameslink ticket to be valid.
But if it didn't it means you were on board a train at Biggleswade without a valid ticket (and on board a train from St Neots with a separate ticket to Biggleswade, that was also not valid - see below*).
You should therefore expect them to regard both* tickets as invalid and them to potentially want you to pay for a new ticket for the full journey (or both parts of the journey) at the Anytime Single rate. So you may not be simply asked to pay the difference.
This could add up if they check back on your travel history which you have to assume they might (although GTR don't always seem to do so)
Assuming this was the 09.16 train from St Neots it does not stop anywhere after 10.00 until it gets to Finsbury Park at 10.07.
GTR are reasonable in these matters - but it will be important to explain to them clearly what you have been doing in order to get it resolved in the best way (or least worst way...)
Your response needs to be a suitable worded apology, making it clear you now understand the terms of the railcard use, an offer to pay the fare owed and a request to resolve it without court action (see typical letters from GTR Thameslink uploaded on other threads to get the idea of what you will receive from them)
Also, is the price of the full ticket calculated on just the Biggleswade to City Thameslink element (one way) part of the journey?
*It might be but that would depend on things like
a) you told the inspector you had started your journey at St Neots with another (not valid) ticket, or the Inspector noticed this
or
b) they look at ticket buying records and see those tickets from St Neots to Biggleswade bought with a Network Railcard discount and in particular a ticket gate scan / on board scan pointing towards it being before 10am
So they may ask you about those things - but you are not obliged to tell them things they don't ask you about when they contact you.
When you hear from them head back here for advice on how to reply / share your draft reply so people can give you advice on wording if it would help
Going forwards you might want to check if a Flexi Season ticket is a better value deal for you given the times you need to travel (you could ask separately on the forum for advice about that maybe)
Network Railcard Terms and Conditions. Explore the London and South East area with discounted leisure travel tickets with a Network Railcard.
www.network-railcard.co.uk
in particular section 4
tho I am not sure how section 4.7 might apply in calculating the the sum owed - ie this below (my bolding), as I am not sure that would apply if you were already travelling, as opposed to having regularised your ticket before boarding, eg at the ticket office, by paying an excess fare - someone here will certainly know however.
EDIT - I see @furlong has pointed towards this issue in post #6 posted whilst I wrote this
4.7. You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full price applicable fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if you travel:
4.7.1. beyond the station for which your ticket is issued; or
4.7.2. to a destination beyond the area shown on the Network Railcard map (network-railcard.co.uk/map), without having first obtained the correct ticket for your journey; or
4.7.3. on a route to which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.
This general advice often given on the forum might also help you know what to expect / how to respond:
Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.
Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It may be some time before they contact you - eg 6 to 8 weeks. It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).
When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter
The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.
Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.
The ticket not being valid is by virtue of the Railcard the OP has used, not due to the time restriction that applies to the ticket (B2 - Valid from 0915.)
Given the undiscounted ticket would have been valid on the train in question and removing a discount isn't a valid Excess reason under the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (though Magellan machines will allow you to do so) arguably Condition 9.5.1 doesn't apply. It's still worth appealing, however, to remove the opportunity for GTR to cancel the PF and attempt a prosecution under Railway Byelaws.
The ticket not being valid is by virtue of the Railcard the OP has used, not due to the time restriction that applies to the ticket (B2 - Valid from 0915.)
A time restriction by virtue of a railcard is still a ticket "restricted for use at a range of times other than the service on which you are travelling ".
Condition 4.7 pf the Network Railcard implies that a penalty fare will be charged in a penalty fare area in the case of 4.7.3. on a route to which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply. If the OP was challenged at Knebworth in that case the PF could be £9.30 plus £100. This seems to imply that in some strange way the ticket is valid but the price is not. Now it seems to me the railway have got themselves into a very strange position here since if the pax had claimed a discount without possessing the card, say in error on an app, they would be liable to prosecution for not having a valid ticket. Whereas here a pax with a card but knowingly traveling outside the validity period of the discount can only be PFd or excessed. A prosecution would not seem to be possible. This despite the fact i seem to recall the card has 'not valid before 10.00 Mon-Fri' printed on the face.
, they'd need to prove you were doing this deliberately. Typically that would be done by showing they've already warned you but you continued doing it.
Especially given they would have had to book the ticket for a train time after 1000, and then use an earlier one. And not just once, but time after time…
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