Thameslink to Maidstone East

[blelic]

Does anyone have any idea of any plans for this service to still go ahead, or any insider information as to the future of these plans?

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone have any idea of any plans for this service to still go ahead, or any insider information as to the future of these plans?

There is now a Southeastern service from Charing Cross to Maidstone East.

Previous postings have indicated that a shortage of Thameslink rolling stock and the introduction of a Southeastern service suggests that Thameslink to Maidstone East will not happen.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-blackfriars-2022.213087/page-15#post-5875062

 

[bramling]

Does anyone have any idea of any plans for this service to still go ahead, or any insider information as to the future of these plans?

Not quite dead, but in a *very* deep sleep.

Firstly, it's unclear where the Thameslink rolling stock would come from. The 700/0 fleet is heavily subscribed, so there would have to be reshuffles elsewhere on Thameslink. The slightly reduced Covid levels of service might just free up a handful of 700/1 which could replace the small handful of 700/0 diagrams on the Brighton/Bedford axis, but that's just about the only readily available source of 700/0s.

The fact that the Southeastern half of the service is now operating in standalone form suggests this is likely to prevail in the short and medium terms, and it seems to be generally accepted that this is likely to be pretty much the long term situation as well.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, Charing X, Waterloo and London Bridge are as good a set of connections as Thameslink anyway.

 

[blelic]

Not quite dead, but in a *very* deep sleep.

Firstly, it's unclear where the Thameslink rolling stock would come from. The 700/0 fleet is heavily subscribed, so there would have to be reshuffles elsewhere on Thameslink. The slightly reduced Covid levels of service might just free up a handful of 700/1 which could replace the small handful of 700/0 diagrams on the Brighton/Bedford axis, but that's just about the only readily available source of 700/0s.

The fact that the Southeastern half of the service is now operating in standalone form suggests this is likely to prevail in the short and medium terms, and it seems to be generally accepted that this is likely to be pretty much the long term situation as well.

What about from the Orpington service which was originally supposed to run throughout the day, but has been stripped back to peak hours only?

 

[bramling]

What about from the Orpington service which was originally supposed to run throughout the day, but has been stripped back to peak hours only?

The units sit spare during the day (mainly at Cricklewood), however they are still employed in the peaks, so it doesn't give any saving. Maidstone will require something like five 700/0s, all day.

 

[IrishDave]

Firstly, it's unclear where the Thameslink rolling stock would come from. The 700/0 fleet is heavily subscribed, so there would have to be reshuffles elsewhere on Thameslink. The slightly reduced Covid levels of service might just free up a handful of 700/1 which could replace the small handful of 700/0 diagrams on the Brighton/Bedford axis, but that's just about the only readily available source of 700/0s.

The trouble is, those 700/0 diagrams on Brighton-Bedford are a feature, not a bug. The 700/0s have to get back to Three Bridges once in a while for heavy maintenance, but none of the regular routes served by 700/0s go anywhere near Three Bridges - so a handful of 700/0 diagrams serving Three Bridges are required, to avoid the need for very long ECS moves (for which there are probably not sufficient crew resources). So I wouldn't describe those as "readily available", unfortunately.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Not quite dead, but in a *very* deep sleep.

Firstly, it's unclear where the Thameslink rolling stock would come from. The 700/0 fleet is heavily subscribed, so there would have to be reshuffles elsewhere on Thameslink. The slightly reduced Covid levels of service might just free up a handful of 700/1 which could replace the small handful of 700/0 diagrams on the Brighton/Bedford axis, but that's just about the only readily available source of 700/0s.

The fact that the Southeastern half of the service is now operating in standalone form suggests this is likely to prevail in the short and medium terms, and it seems to be generally accepted that this is likely to be pretty much the long term situation as well.

Its dead.

 

[PGAT]

Some of you are too optimistic. It’s dead, and has been a for a couple years now.

 

[MrB]

What is the rationale behind Maidstone East - Charing X services on SE? They were only brought back in the recent timetable, was the local area crying out for a link to London other than Victoria?

 

[bramling]

Some of you are too optimistic. It’s dead, and has been a for a couple years now.

I think everyone can see that, yet the DFT haven’t officially said anything. The appearance of the new Southeastern service tells us everything we need to know!

 

[JonathanH]

What is the rationale behind Maidstone East - Charing X services on SE? They were only brought back in the recent timetable, was the local area crying out for a link to London other than Victoria?

Political pressure to have services from the Maidstone East line to London Bridge. Both Laura Trott, as MP for Sevenoaks (including Otford) and Tom Tugendhat, as MP for Tonbridge and Malling, appear to have been campaigning for links to London Bridge. Helen Grant, MP for Maidstone seems less bothered (based on her website).

https://www.lauratrott.org.uk/news/mp-column-new-rail-line-already-making-huge-difference-commuters

This week got off to a great start as on Monday I joined Sevenoaks District Council leader Peter Fleming and local district and parish councillors Roddy Hogarth, John Edwards-Winser, Carol Bent and Simon Featherstone to greet one of the new fast line trains at Otford Station.

The new line is a result of our long fought – but successful - campaign, and it was fantastic to see commuters already benefitting from the direct line to London Bridge. Obviously, we’ve had a difficult start because of strikes, and diversions - which I’m following up on - but by working together we have achieved a real and meaningful change for residents.

This is a huge step forward and while I am monitoring its performance closely, I will keep pushing for more rush hour trains to be provided in order to make it an even more user-friendly service.

 

[WizCastro197]

Thameslink's 700 route maps on board, still state 'services for this route are being planned', despite the aforementioned: 'It's Dead'.

 

[blelic]

The units sit spare during the day (mainly at Cricklewood), however they are still employed in the peaks, so it doesn't give any saving. Maidstone will require something like five 700/0s, all day.

Makes me wonder why GTR don’t just run the Orpington service all day as it was previously. They clearly have the units and in terms of drivers there wouldn’t be too many extra duties needed.

 

[30907]

Makes me wonder why GTR don’t just run the Orpington service all day as it was previously. They clearly have the units and in terms of drivers there wouldn’t be too many extra duties needed.

Like it or not, those extra duties would mean extra subsidy from HM Treasury, even assuming there was slack in the driver establishment.

 

[Basil Jet]

Thameslink's 700 route maps on board, still state 'services for this route are being planned', despite the aforementioned: 'It's Dead'.

That's not surprising. More surprising is that the route map at https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/destinations-and-offers/where-we-travel-to/our-routes still shows it. Maybe it isn't dead?

 

[Stephen42]

That's not surprising. More surprising is that the route map at https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/destinations-and-offers/where-we-travel-to/our-routes still shows it. Maybe it isn't dead?

Probably just that no one wants to publicly say that it's dead. There are plenty of signs it's not being actively pursued e.g. the headcode for it has been delisted and the ECML 2022 timetable consultation kept the other core services the same time but totally changed the Cambridge slow timings.

 

[PGAT]

That's not surprising. More surprising is that the route map at https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/destinations-and-offers/where-we-travel-to/our-routes still shows it. Maybe it isn't dead?

It looks bad if they remove it. The best way to draw away attention from something is to not acknowledge it at all

 

[WizCastro197]

That's not surprising. More surprising is that the route map at https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/destinations-and-offers/where-we-travel-to/our-routes still shows it. Maybe it isn't dead?

The map is outdated. It still shows southern as going to Milton Keynes Central, which they don't anymore since May/September. The ones inside the trains themselves are up to date, as it shows South Croydon as a regular off peak stop, which is true.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thameslink services already gets annihilated south of the river when ECML falls over so another service group on the ECML would just add to lost services at times of disruption. Maidstone have ended up with a reasonable compromise here although not the first time that services have been routed this way over the last few decades only for them to be pulled and revert to Victoria.

 

[bramling]

K

Thameslink services already gets annihilated south of the river when ECML falls over so another service group on the ECML would just add to lost services at times of disruption. Maidstone have ended up with a reasonable compromise here although not the first time that services have been routed this way over the last few decades only for them to be pulled and revert to Victoria.

Yes it’s interesting that the former Charing Cross/Maidstone/Ashford/Canterbury West/Margate service was pulled, and I suspect based on my own experiences using it this was at least partly down to lack of use. Connex evidently thought it was worthwhile enough to deploy their (at the time) brand new 365s on it, yet it failed to make the grade.

Time will tell if same happens again.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not quite dead, but in a *very* deep sleep.

Firstly, it's unclear where the Thameslink rolling stock would come from. The 700/0 fleet is heavily subscribed, so there would have to be reshuffles elsewhere on Thameslink. The slightly reduced Covid levels of service might just free up a handful of 700/1 which could replace the small handful of 700/0 diagrams on the Brighton/Bedford axis, but that's just about the only readily available source of 700/0s.

The fact that the Southeastern half of the service is now operating in standalone form suggests this is likely to prevail in the short and medium terms, and it seems to be generally accepted that this is likely to be pretty much the long term situation as well.

The fleet availability is an interesting point, considering the amount of 387s that appear on London - Cambridge. DfT are probably lucky that others things have worked in their favour. I think the failure rate of the 700s is a lot worse than they had planned. Not sure what the contractual figure was, but considering they struggle with units now, they will definitely be in no rush to complete this one.

As for the cross London Part, that also has mixed views. I would love to be able to go directly to London Bridge. Others find a unit sat waiting in Kings Cross greatly appreciated. It think the best we can hope for on this route is if following the ECML recast they join up the Blackfriars - Sevenoaks with the London - Cambridge.

 

[bramling]

The fleet availability is an interesting point, considering the amount of 387s that appear on London - Cambridge. DfT are probably lucky that others things have worked in their favour. I think the failure rate of the 700s is a lot worse than they had planned.

There seem to be two factors at play. Firstly without sitting down and analysing figures I'd say Rainham must use more 700/0 than Caterham/Tattenham Corner would have done. Secondly the 700/0 fleet seems to suffer from the same problem as the Corby electrics, namely that the main depot isn't on any of the 8-car routes. Add to that the unplanned situation where the GN units are captive, albeit less captive since Sevenoaks started.

As for the cross London Part, that also has mixed views. I would love to be able to go directly to London Bridge. Others find a unit sat waiting in Kings Cross greatly appreciated. It think the best we can hope for on this route is if following the ECML recast they join up the Blackfriars - Sevenoaks with the London - Cambridge.

Can't really see the latter happening until there is a significant uplift in overall Thameslink / GN reliability, and the prospects of that are quite slim in itself.

 

[Failed Unit]

If I recall, wasn't one of the reasons for the delay to the Maidstone service to do with a new depot at Ashford. I guess that could actually be an incentive to sort it if the intention was to relieve the pain on three bridges.

For interest Hornsey is a fairly major depot, what can three bridges do that Hornsey can't? (Thinking that the units allocated there are shorter so it could be as simple as they can't work on an 8 car sets. The 387s can go as 4 and the 717s are only 6 cars. But that is the reason for the question, the 717s are not miles apart from the 700 are they mechanically?

 

[Horizon22]

Thameslink's 700 route maps on board, still state 'services for this route are being planned', despite the aforementioned: 'It's Dead'.

That is in itself a downgrade from something like "services planned to run from 2023" that used to be on there!

 

[WizCastro197]

That is in itself a downgrade from something like "services planned to run from 2023" that used to be on there!

I ma sure they must’ve been replaced in December, with the new message, indicating it isn’t exactly dead just the growth of the plan is extremely slow. Thameslink would’ve removed the whole dotted route of the map if the whole plan was well and truly dead.

 

[PGAT]

Looks like Thameslink are hastily sweeping this under the rug pretending everything is hunky dory with this plan

 

[infobleep]

Political pressure to have services from the Maidstone East line to London Bridge. Both Laura Trott, as MP for Sevenoaks (including Otford) and Tom Tugendhat, as MP for Tonbridge and Malling, appear to have been campaigning for links to London Bridge. Helen Grant, MP for Maidstone seems less bothered (based on her website).

https://www.lauratrott.org.uk/news/mp-column-new-rail-line-already-making-huge-difference-commuters

What does Helen Grant say? Is it silence?

 

[JonathanH]

What does Helen Grant say? Is it silence?

I couldn't see any recent comment about services on the Maidstone East line on her website.
https://www.helengrant.org/news

The last piece was from December 2020.
https://www.helengrant.org/news/min...roduction-long-overdue-train-service-new-year

Minister will publish date for Introduction of Long Overdue Train Service in New Year

Tuesday, 15 December, 2020

At a roundtable meeting convened by Maidstone & The Weald MP Helen Grant on Monday 7th December, the Minister of State for Rail pledged to bring forward a reliable date for the delivery of the long-awaited City Thameslink Service from Maidstone East in early 2021.

The roundtable was attended by representatives from Kent County Council, Maidstone Borough Council and local businesses. All in attendance explained to Minister Chris Heaton Harris how the service is so vital to Maidstone, with its potential to increase business investment, facilitate economic growth and provide improvements for Maidstone’s many commuters.

Mr Heaton Harris said that he wanted to provide people and businesses in Maidstone with a date for delivery which they could trust. He explained that he therefore planned to convene a meeting between Thameslink, Network Rail and Department for Transport officials to thrash out the issues and agree a date by which the trains can start to run. He also plans to agree ‘staging posts’ with industry stakeholders which will allow all those involved to track progress towards the service being implemented.

Helen Grant said, ‘I very much welcome this commitment from the Minister. Frankly, commuters and businesses in Maidstone have had enough of waiting for this long overdue service now. We all know that it will be a game changer for the County Town of Kent, unlocking substantial business investment and providing much needed new options for commuters.

I would urge the Minister to bring forward a date for delivery as soon as he possibly can and then bang a few heads together to ensure that, this time, everybody sticks to it.’

No obvious follow up since.

 

[WizCastro197]

I couldn't see any recent comment about services on the Maidstone East line on her website.
https://www.helengrant.org/news

The last piece was from December 2020.
https://www.helengrant.org/news/min...roduction-long-overdue-train-service-new-year


No obvious follow up since.

She said this a few weeks ago however:

On trains, after a long period of engagement with successive transport ministers, Maidstone’s city commuters were given a great new rail service into Charing Cross and London Bridge. There’s still work to do in getting the Thameslink service reinstated but this is still good progress.

How will we remember 2022?

How will we remember 2022? In January alone we had climate change, calamity and Covid combined. It was the warmest New year's Day on record in Central London, 'party gate' stole most of the headlines and the pandemic was running riot once again with the new Omicron variant.

www.helengrant.org