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Thameslink Super Off-Peak Travelcards

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Ted633

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At weekends, if I want a travelcard from my local station (Horley), the cheapest ticket I can get is an off-peak travelcard. However, if you go from Three Bridges*, there is the option of a cheaper super off-peak travelcard (even though you are further away).
So two questions,
1 - is there a difference (additional restrictions) between a ‘super off-peak’ and a ‘off-peak’? Both are ‘Thameslink Only’.
2 - why is the super off-peak option not available from all stations?

*Super Off-Peak tickets were also recently available from Gatwick, however they have disappeared there now.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Might different fare setters, be a factor, in what's offered? Noting, of course, that Southern and Thameslink are both part of GTR.
 

JonathanH

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Still available from Gatwick at the weekend, and yes, you can use one from Horley.
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=GTW&dest=0035&rlc=NEW&rte=789&tkt=WRE

So two questions,
1 - is there a difference (additional restrictions) between a ‘super off-peak’ and a ‘off-peak’? Both are ‘Thameslink Only’.
2 - why is the super off-peak option not available from all stations?
At the weekend on the Brighton line, there is no difference in the trains that off-peak and super off-peak tickets can be used on.

These tickets were introduced before Thameslink trains provided the primary service at Redhill and Horley, and are therefore only at the stations where First Capital Connect and Southern were in competition, before 2015.

They (Thameslink only tickets) were meant to be withdrawn as part of GTR becoming one operation, but the issues with the Southern DOO dispute and London Bridge timetable meant it was unpalatable to do so.

There are separate all-week super off peak tickets which had their birth as Connex 'Pricebuster' tickets which have greater weekday restrictions than off-peak tickets.

Project Oval is coming to more of the Brighton Line stations soon, and where that has happened elsewhere it has seen a lot of these sort of multi-layer fares removed.
 
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Ted633

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Still available from Gatwick at the weekend, and yes, you can use one from Horley.
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=GTW&dest=0035&rlc=NEW&rte=789&tkt=WRE


At the weekend on the Brighton line, there is no difference in the trains that off-peak and super off-peak tickets can be used on.

These tickets were introduced before Thameslink trains provided the primary service at Redhill and Horley, and are therefore only at the stations where First Capital Connect and Southern were in competition, before 2015.

They (Thameslink only tickets) were meant to be withdrawn as part of GTR becoming one operation, but the issues with the Southern DOO dispute and London Bridge timetable meant it was unpalatable to do so.

There are separate all-week super off peak tickets which had their birth as Connex 'Pricebuster' tickets which have greater weekday restrictions than off-peak tickets.

Project Oval is coming to more of the Brighton Line stations soon, and where that has happened elsewhere it has seen a lot of these sort of multi-layer fares removed.
Seems it is only this weekend the Super off peak isn’t available from Gatwick (For whatever reason). Wasn’t available when I travelled yesterday and still isn’t today (as far as I can see). Available again from next weekend though.
Fully aware they are valid at Horley (I get the train from there, but select the ticket from Gatwick when using a machine). Was just wondering why you couldn’t get one from Horley itself. I suppose the old FCC /Southern competition makes some sort of sense.

Thank you for your answers.

Edit - seems that Super Off Peaks are also available from Crawley & Horsham, which would’ve been outside the FCC / Southern competition.
 

Ken X

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Edit - seems that Super Off Peaks are also available from Crawley & Horsham, which would’ve been outside the FCC / Southern competition.
I can confirm this, we bought one day super off peak Travelcards at Horsham last Sunday as we had a day out in the smoke with family.
 

sqwizz

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Similar situation at the stations near me - my local station doesn't let you buy a Super but the one further away from London does, so I have to buy my ticket 'from' there instead. I enquired and was told it's because they removed the Super when converting my local station to PAYG. From a quick check it looks like Horley has Oyster PAYG and Three Bridges doesn't?
 

Ted633

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Similar situation at the stations near me - my local station doesn't let you buy a Super but the one further away from London does, so I have to buy my ticket 'from' there instead. I enquired and was told it's because they removed the Super when converting my local station to PAYG. From a quick check it looks like Horley has Oyster PAYG and Three Bridges doesn't?
Correct, Three Bridges doesn't however Gatwick does (and Super Off Peaks are available from there)
 

CyrusWuff

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Correct, Three Bridges doesn't however Gatwick does (and Super Off Peaks are available from there)
Gatwick isn't within the Oval area, however, which is why the structure for paper fares is unchanged.
 

Watershed

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At weekends, if I want a travelcard from my local station (Horley), the cheapest ticket I can get is an off-peak travelcard. However, if you go from Three Bridges*, there is the option of a cheaper super off-peak travelcard (even though you are further away).
You can use the Three Bridges ticket starting at Horley - "break of journey" is allowed at intermediate stations.

So two questions,
1 - is there a difference (additional restrictions) between a ‘super off-peak’ and a ‘off-peak’? Both are ‘Thameslink Only’.
On a weekend or Bank Holidays, both of these fares are valid all day, so you can just buy the cheaper one.

However this isn't the case for all Super Off-Peak tickets; some, primarily those set by West Midlands Trains (London Northwestern) and SWR, still have restrictions on Saturdays.

2 - why is the super off-peak option not available from all stations?
It's down to the complex history of the fare structure on the Brighton Main Line. Thameslink created cheaper fares for journeys such as Gatwick and Three Bridges to London, back when they were a separate franchise and operator competing with Southern. They didn't serve intermediate stations such as Horley, so they didn't create "Thameslink only" fares for travel from those stations to London.

The situation is now reversed, with many of those stations now only (or primarily) being served by Thameslink, however the "Thameslink only" fares were kept after the creation of the Govia Thameslink Railway franchise in 2015, which merged the previously separate Southern, Gatwick Express, Thameslink and Great Northern operations.

The "Thameslink only" fares thereby became valid on all GTR services, as there is no legal mechanism in the National Rail Conditions of Travel to restrict travel to one particular brand, only to a specific train company (and all of the above brands are operated as one legal entity, Govia Thameslink Railway Limited).

There have been various suggestions/threats to withdraw these cheaper fares over the years, though it has not materialised so far. However, I do I expect that it will happen when contactless PAYG is extended towards Brighton.

A "simplified" Project Oval fare structure (i.e. one that's much more expensive for most Off-Peak journeys) has already been rolled out across other routes where PAYG has been expanded, so we can look forward to more of the same :(.

Sadly this is what the government claims people want. What people actually want is for travel to be both affordable and simple. But the government is using this as an excuse to make it appear simple on the surface ("you can just tap in and out"), whilst actually being more complicated under the hood (Off-Peak paper tickets will apply at different times to PAYG Off-Peak fares, for example).and quietly increasing fares (and thus rail industry revenue).

*Super Off-Peak tickets were also recently available from Gatwick, however they have disappeared there now.
We'd need to know exactly which Super Off-Peak fare you're referring to there (e.g. what price?) because there are a lot of different ones. Super Off-Peak fares are absolutely still available from Gatwick.
 

Ted633

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We'd need to know exactly which Super Off-Peak fare you're referring to there (e.g. what price?) because there are a lot of different ones. Super Off-Peak fares are absolutely still available from Gatwick.
Apologies, was referring to Travelcards. The option for one when buying from a machine didn’t come up yesterday (despite selecting Gatwick as the origin station) Came up when choosing from Three Bridges though.

Since seen that Super Off Peak Travelcards are still available from Gatwick, so not sure what went on there.

Cheers for your answers, just one of those quirks arising from the franchise histories. Bit cheeky against those that aren’t aware of it though.
 

Persephone

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Apologies for the slight necro - made an account just to get more info about this. I also noticed that those £12.55 (w/ Railcard) travelcards are only purchasable from Gatwick, yet you can't get them from any stations in-between Merstham and Horley.

I've previously wanted to connect from London to Gatwick to then get to Horley as it can be much quicker. I believe I'm right in saying that if I take a £13.70 Horley → Z1-6 travelcard, I can't connect through Gatwick to take one of the faster GTR trains to London. Yet if I take the cheaper £12.55 Gatwick → Z1-6 travelcard I can do exactly that, start/stop my journey in Horley, and connect through Gatwick for a faster Thameslink service if I want.

It sounds like with this upcoming GTR Claim, if they win, then those travelling + buying tickets from stations between Merstham and Horley are really being double screwed eh? Doesn't sound fair - can't imagine how much money and time I could've saved if I discovered this sooner, I travel to London on the weekends a lot...
 

JonathanH

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I also noticed that those £12.55 (w/ Railcard) travelcards are only purchasable from Gatwick, yet you can't get them from any stations in-between Merstham and Horley.
They date back to before 2018 (before 2015 even) when First Capital Connect didn't serve the stations between Merstham and Horley. They were meant to be withdrawn on establishment of the single GTR operation, but weren't. It has always been possible to use a travelcard issued at Gatwick for journeys starting between Merstham and Horley.
 

Watershed

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Apologies for the slight necro - made an account just to get more info about this. I also noticed that those £12.55 (w/ Railcard) travelcards are only purchasable from Gatwick, yet you can't get them from any stations in-between Merstham and Horley.

I've previously wanted to connect from London to Gatwick to then get to Horley as it can be much quicker. I believe I'm right in saying that if I take a £13.70 Horley → Z1-6 travelcard, I can't connect through Gatwick to take one of the faster GTR trains to London. Yet if I take the cheaper £12.55 Gatwick → Z1-6 travelcard I can do exactly that, start/stop my journey in Horley, and connect through Gatwick for a faster Thameslink service if I want.

It sounds like with this upcoming GTR Claim, if they win, then those travelling + buying tickets from stations between Merstham and Horley are really being double screwed eh? Doesn't sound fair - can't imagine how much money and time I could've saved if I discovered this sooner, I travel to London on the weekends a lot...
You can absolutely use a Gatwick-Z1-6 Travelcard to start and finish your journey at Horley, travelling in the 'right' direction in each case.

However, doubling back between Horley and Gatwick isn't permitted. You could try and argue that is because it involves a route no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route. However, I really wouldn't suggest trying that argument as you can't get a journey planner to offer you such an itinerary as evidence of its validity.

Moreover, the "3 mile rule" is only publicly codified in the Routeing Guide in Detail, and at that, only in the section dealing with 'local journeys' (which Gatwick-London doesn't count as. So I don't think it applies in this situation from the perspective of a member of the public.
 

Fenchurch SP

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I noticed a similar anomaly when travelling from Balcombe to Brighton where the CDR was more expensive than a Thameslink Only Super Off Peak Return from Gatwick. Almost all trains stopping at Balcombe are Thameslink anyway.
 

yorkie

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Apologies for the slight necro - made an account just to get more info about this. I also noticed that those £12.55 (w/ Railcard) travelcards are only purchasable from Gatwick, yet you can't get them from any stations in-between Merstham and Horley.

I've previously wanted to connect from London to Gatwick to then get to Horley as it can be much quicker. I believe I'm right in saying that if I take a £13.70 Horley → Z1-6 travelcard, I can't connect through Gatwick to take one of the faster GTR trains to London. Yet if I take the cheaper £12.55 Gatwick → Z1-6 travelcard I can do exactly that, start/stop my journey in Horley, and connect through Gatwick for a faster Thameslink service if I want.
It would be valid via Gatwick, except for a negative easement:
OUTWARD JOURNEY Horley to London Victoria
Mileage 27.58 (Shortest possible 25.63)
Permitted: Within 3 miles of shortest route.
Not Permitted: Negative easement.
The following negative easement may apply:
  • Easement 30062 (published by TOC SN)
    Journeys to or from Horley via Redhill may not doubleback via Gatwick Airport. This easement applies in both directions.
It sounds like with this upcoming GTR Claim, if they win, then those travelling + buying tickets from stations between Merstham and Horley are really being double screwed eh? Doesn't sound fair - can't imagine how much money and time I could've saved if I discovered this sooner, I travel to London on the weekends a lot...
The legal claim isn't going to make a difference either way; longer-term they are going to continue to expand the PAYG area, and remove the cheaper "Super Off Peak" options, pushing up the price for people who currently take that option.
 

MrJeeves

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It would be valid via Gatwick, except for a negative easement:
The text of the easement does not bar the journey, but the data (which references Earlswood) does. Yet another case of the publicly accessible routeing guide not actually representing the rules that apply to passengers in practice.

The text does not prevent the use of the fastest services to complete the journey, travelling between London and Gatwick via the Redhill-avoiding (Quarry) Lines, and doubling-back to Horley, as these fast services won't travel via Redhill.
 
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